Lansdowne Road Stadium

What's your opinion of the design?

I like it - a major change from the current one, and sufficently different from Croke Park
679
82%
Not keen, I don't really like it
101
12%
No opinion, the devil is in the detail as they say
44
5%
 
Total votes : 824

Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby Cliff Barnes » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:33 pm

rofbp wrote:+1
i agree completely. i attend a lot of games, in all codes. the comfort of the fan, their sight-lines, safety and the atmosphere at the game should be the main priorities on the design brief. any design that doesn't meet those basic requirements, no matter how aesthetically pleasing it is on the outside, must be considered as not achieving its goal. although i suppose we have to hold judgement until it opens, the pictures certainly seem to indicate that sightlines are affected from the upper tiers.
no doubt the defence will be that the whole pitch is visible, but this would be a wholly unacceptable logic, particularly for rugby, where so much of the action takes place around the margins of the playing area, and where following the flight of a kicked ball is vital to your enjoyment of the game


i disagree.
to call croke park 75% finished, considering the importance of retaining a terrace for atmosphere and historic reasons, is wrong. Croke park was always intended to have a terrace at the hill 16 end, therefore it is 100% finished as intended. you may dislike the appearance of a terrace, but i think a properly designed terrace is a positive attribute in a stadium.
hill 16 is a clear example of how a terrace should be designed, and shows the british authorities overreacted in banning terraces at larger grounds.


the design of hill 16 from the outside is not pretty, but it doesn't have to be: it is masked by the railway line and rows of terraced houses.
the continuity of the croke park roof is broken when viewed from above, but does that really matter either? who is looking at that? the pilot of the garda helicopter, and a few aerial shots on tv?
from inside, it does appear a bank of concrete, but why look at concrete when the pitch is where the action is?


"amiable day trippers" is unnecessarily dismissive.
i would say that the nature of gaelic games lends itself to constant vocal engagement, and having attended all 4 codes at croke park, the contrast between soccer and gaa atmospheres there attests to this difference in atmosphere, (though in fairness, the smaller soccer pitch is also a big factor).


proving the start of your quote was based on opinion rather than experience?

+1

applying the croke park/hill 16 argument to the aviva stadium, i don't think it will matter once a match is on how small the havelock end is: the noise from the other 3 sides will compensate, and our attention should be focused on the pitch rather than the large looming wall and roof over that end.


When you look at how fantastic the Cusack, Hogan & Davin stands are for spectators I have to disagree - remember TV pictures are being shown across the world and when the Hill 16 end is shown it looks awful ( remember Twickenham before they fisished it ?). It does need to be full "wrapped around" even if it is a terrace of reduced size and capacity.

Remember the Romans managed to fully enclosed stadiums thousands of years ago and the fudge at Landsdown Road and Croke Park is what we will be stuck with for a long long time.
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby foremanjoe » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:14 pm

Cliff Barnes wrote:When you look at how fantastic the Cusack, Hogan & Davin stands are for spectators I have to disagree - remember TV pictures are being shown across the world and when the Hill 16 end is shown it looks awful ( remember Twickenham before they fisished it ?). It does need to be full "wrapped around" even if it is a terrace of reduced size and capacity.

Remember the Romans managed to fully enclosed stadiums thousands of years ago and the fudge at Landsdown Road and Croke Park is what we will be stuck with for a long long time.


If Croke Park was fully wrapped-around, wouldn't it look an awful lot like Twickers?
The terrace in Croke Park is what makes it distinctive, it gives it character.
I also believe that the contrast between the terrace and the stands acts to make the stands appear even more imposing.
The stadium holds 82,500 people in its present condition, what more do you want?
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby Global Citizen » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:15 pm

Would it be physically possible to continue the upper tiers of Croke Park above the existing Hill 16 and railway line ?
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby OisinT » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:34 pm

mrdarcy wrote:There is no chance that the GAA would try to buy that railway line. It is extremely busy at present and will only get more so with the extension of DART along that line. I suppose the line could be lowered but that would require level crossings along the route from Connolly to Glasnevin and there is no chance of that happening. Forget it, the hill stays as it is.

That's what I'm saying. The GAA have looked into this multiple times afaik and those seem to be the concerns / reasons for this project NEVER going ahead.
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby Cliff Barnes » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:58 pm

foremanjoe wrote:If Croke Park was fully wrapped-around, wouldn't it look an awful lot like Twickers?
The terrace in Croke Park is what makes it distinctive, it gives it character.
I also believe that the contrast between the terrace and the stands acts to make the stands appear even more imposing.
The stadium holds 82,500 people in its present condition, what more do you want?


You can get away with character for a long time which Landsdown, Thomond and Croke Park did for a long time but they had to be re-vamped for the 21st century.
Shane McGowan has plenty of character with a few teeth missing but that does'nt make him look good really now does it ?

A fully enclosed stadium like Wembley, Millenium, Twickenham etc ? + it would help stop that infernal cold north wind !

.
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby foremanjoe » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:19 pm

Cliff Barnes wrote:Shane McGowan has plenty of character with a few teeth missing but that does'nt make him look good really now does it ?


That's true, but who would you rather have sing Fairtale in New York or The Irish Rover, him or Johnny Logan?
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby BTH » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:33 pm

Cliff Barnes wrote:When you look at how fantastic the Cusack, Hogan & Davin stands are for spectators I have to disagree - remember TV pictures are being shown across the world and when the Hill 16 end is shown it looks awful ( remember Twickenham before they fisished it ?). It does need to be full "wrapped around" even if it is a terrace of reduced size and capacity.

Remember the Romans managed to fully enclosed stadiums thousands of years ago and the fudge at Landsdown Road and Croke Park is what we will be stuck with for a long long time.


Personally I think Hill 16 already looks fantastic on TV pictures - the sheer density of the crowd and the height of the terrace (meaning that rarely does the cameras field of view stray above the highest rows of spectators) make it a far more impressive sight to my eyes than any modern seated stand. Having stood on it on many occasions I can confirm that it's a great facility, comfortable, safe and with excellent sightlines. One slight problem I have is the "gap" that resulted between the Cusack Stand and Hill 16 visible in the above photo which I find looks somewhat messy and unfinished. Perhaps the lower deck of the Cusack Stand could have been extended northwards to meet the hill so as to finish it off in a tidier manner.

The issue of Hill 16 was debated long before the Croke Park redevelopment got underway. It was accepted that a complete bowl could never be achieved due to the railway line and the issues with overshadowing properties to the north. These limitations were accepted as it was clear that a stadium of sufficient capacity could be achieved regardless and also because the inner city location was deemed more favourable than a greenfield solution. It was exactly the same reasoning as was applied in the case of Lansdowne Road.

Back on topic, does anyone have any idea why the seating at the Havelock Square end wasn't built up to the same height as the terracing that was there prior to redevelopment?
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby alonso » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:53 pm

bth... i assume they wanted to roof over the entire stadium for aethetic and atmosphere reasons and the extra height required meant a lower seating area than previously
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby Paul Clerkin » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:24 pm

BTH wrote:Back on topic, does anyone have any idea why the seating at the Havelock Square end wasn't built up to the same height as the terracing that was there prior to redevelopment?


I think because the footprint of the other end is now larger than it used to be - so the pitch has been pushed towards Havelock Square. I used to go to that end myself and it was never large either.
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby BTH » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:50 am

alonso wrote:bth... i assume they wanted to roof over the entire stadium for aethetic and atmosphere reasons and the extra height required meant a lower seating area than previously


But the "bus shelter" they have built is much much higher than the old terrace ever was. Surely they could have built the concrete structure of the seating up to a greater height to improve the sense of enclosure, reduced the seating at the opposite end to ensure that everything still fit on the site (and given a little more balance to the numbers at each end) and put a less vertically emphasized roof over the Havelock Square end rising to the same height as the current bizzarely ugly looking structure.

Whilst the old terrace wasnt huge by any means it was still at the very least around 4 times taller than the seating thats currently in place.

Sorry to be harping on about it but I really just don't get why the designers didn't put a bit more effort into improving the sense of enclosure even slightly within the constraints. 10 rows of seats at one end of a national stadium is simply pathetic.
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby Punchbowl » Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:40 am

Global Citizen wrote:Would it be physically possible to continue the upper tiers of Croke Park above the existing Hill 16 and railway line ?


I believe the original plans were for a 'token' stand here, barely as big as the new north 'stand' in Lansdowne. Basically a sheet wall was to be put in place, and a few rows of seats, but the terrace was retained due to a certain amount of nostalgic pressure.

The Hill has it's charm, but Croker isn't the issue here really. The IRFU/FAI had a chance to develop an atmospheric bowl, but chose the cheaper option by not spinning the stadium and paying off the Rugby club (or offering Donnybrook). It's still gonna be a good stadium, but it isn't going to be great... But at least it's consitent with Irish stadium building and destruction.. Just look at Dalymount, a badly chopped up relic of the past, Tolka, a hotch-potch of spur-of-the-moment building, Thomand, a badly designed, over-ambitous muddle of the old and new and Tallaght, a stadium built obviously to harness the full power of the unending wind from the Dublin/Wicklow mountains..
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby alonso » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:30 am

BTH yeh I'm not sure. It doesn't look good from any angle to have so few rows.

PB the issue of rotating the stadium has been dealt with
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby wearnicehats » Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:46 pm

foremanjoe wrote:The stadium holds 82,500 people in its present condition, what more do you want?


put seats on the terrace permanently perhaps - lower capacity but a lot more comfort?
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby lauder » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:13 pm

Punchbowl wrote:I believe the original plans were for a 'token' stand here, barely as big as the new north 'stand' in Lansdowne. Basically a sheet wall was to be put in place, and a few rows of seats, but the terrace was retained due to a certain amount of nostalgic pressure.

The Hill has it's charm, but Croker isn't the issue here really. The IRFU/FAI had a chance to develop an atmospheric bowl, but chose the cheaper option by not spinning the stadium and paying off the Rugby club (or offering Donnybrook). It's still gonna be a good stadium, but it isn't going to be great... But at least it's consitent with Irish stadium building and destruction.. Just look at Dalymount, a badly chopped up relic of the past, Tolka, a hotch-potch of spur-of-the-moment building, Thomand, a badly designed, over-ambitous muddle of the old and new and Tallaght, a stadium built obviously to harness the full power of the unending wind from the Dublin/Wicklow mountains..


The Hill/Cusack stand had foundations built to take the load of further expansion. So it is possible, and was obviously planned for, but at this stage unlikely.
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby GregF » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:11 am

wearnicehats wrote:put seats on the terrace permanently perhaps - lower capacity but a lot more comfort?



Seats are regularly put in and taken out as required!
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby dermot_trellis » Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:36 pm

Punchbowl wrote:Thomand, a badly designed, over-ambitous muddle of the old and new and Tallaght, a stadium built obviously to harness the full power of the unending wind from the Dublin/Wicklow mountains..


The plan with Tallaght is to complete the two open sides as funding becomes available, I believe.. I'm curious as to the reasons for your harsh assessment of the new Thomond? I wouldn't call it badly designed or over ambitious.
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby foremanjoe » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:58 pm

Punchbowl wrote:But at least it's consitent with Irish stadium building and destruction.. Just look at Dalymount, a badly chopped up relic of the past, Tolka, a hotch-potch of spur-of-the-moment building, Thomand, a badly designed, over-ambitous muddle of the old and new and Tallaght, a stadium built obviously to harness the full power of the unending wind from the Dublin/Wicklow mountains..


Where is this Thomand you speak of Punchbowl?
Because you're surely not referring to the exceptional new facility that is Thomond Park?
This is the first negative remark I've heard in relation to the redevelopment of that particular iconic ground so I'd be grateful if you could expand on your assessment that it is poorly designed and over-ambitious?
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby Punchbowl » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:03 am

foremanjoe wrote:Where is this Thomand you speak of Punchbowl?
Because you're surely not referring to the exceptional new facility that is Thomond Park?
This is the first negative remark I've heard in relation to the redevelopment of that particular iconic ground so I'd be grateful if you could expand on your assessment that it is poorly designed and over-ambitious?


Ok, as a stadium re-development with two new premiership style stands, it's fine. What lets it down is the preservation of the two end terraces.. I mean, the aging concrete terrace slabs, totally out of proportion with the slick new stands, just don't look good. Thomond is a great stadium, but it's not the finished article, like all that I mentioned..
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby Griff » Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:56 pm

Punchbowl wrote:Ok, as a stadium re-development with two new premiership style stands, it's fine. What lets it down is the preservation of the two end terraces.. I mean, the aging concrete terrace slabs, totally out of proportion with the slick new stands, just don't look good. Thomond is a great stadium, but it's not the finished article, like all that I mentioned..


Over-ambitious it is not - 40 million was pretty good value for money especially going on 2007 prices and that included the purchasing of the 10 or 12 houses they demolished to make space for the east stand. Agreed it isnt the finished article - but there is plenty of scope for future development of the terraces. Those end terraces you mention are only 12 years old - built for the 1999 world cup games. Lansdowne is to be our showcase stadium which is why the bus-shelter end and the rather dodgy steelwork is not what you expect for a stadium costing 365 million +
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby Peter Fitz » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:15 pm

punchbowl wrote:Ok, as a stadium re-development with two new premiership style stands, it's fine. What lets it down is the preservation of the two end terraces.. I mean, the aging concrete terrace slabs, totally out of proportion with the slick new stands, just don't look good. Thomond is a great stadium, but it's not the finished article, like all that I mentioned..



Image

Original plans included a redevelopment of the terraces to integrate them with the stands, and permission was granted for same, would have brought capacity to 29,000. Obviously they've decided to shelve any plans for the terraces for now but i presume it will be completed at some point in the future given the success of the place.
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby kefu » Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:46 pm

Is there the room to extend out on both ends at Thomond - there is one very busy road to contend with.
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby kinsella » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:03 pm

Video from Matt Cooper's site -

http://www.todayfm.com/Shows/Weekdays/Matt-Cooper/Matt-Cooper-Blog.aspx


At around the 2.15m mark, you can get a good idea of the view of the pitch from the upper tier. (it's not ideal)
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby wearnicehats » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:35 am

the cameraman was probably standing up as far back as possible - it appears that the pitch will be visible ok but there's going to be an issue with seeing goal kicks

the comparison with the photo of croker in post #478 is pretty stark though
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby Bluetonic » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:05 pm

wearnicehats wrote:the comparison with the photo of croker in post #478 is pretty stark though

The roof in Croke Park of course does not keep half the lower tier protected from the elements.
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Re: Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby jimg » Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:18 pm

That video is actually pretty damning in my opinion - these sight lines might be ok for soccer but are poor for rugby. Even for soccer, it won't be as good as in the best stadiums, where you can have uninterrupted sight of the other spectators. A pity. For me function is more important than form with stadiums and while I like the exterior form, it should be secondary; for example, who knows or cares what the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff looks like from the outside? And yet it is one of the most highly regarded in Europe for the quality of the view from practically everywhere and its incredible atmosphere.
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