Postby GregF » Fri Jan 17, 2003 10:42 am

You have brought that 'West Brit' rhetoric juvenile banter up on several occasions Ciaran O ....I think that you have several hang ups and fail to accept Irish history. Get your head out of An Phoblacht and realise facts man.
Both Rory and Aierlan have valid points. Dublin thrived as Rory said as the second city of the Empire up until the act of Union...in this time we saw the building blocks of the city laid, thus we have all the reminents and jewels that remain today from the Georgian period.
What Aierlan implied was the social aspect and excitement of the 19th century and Victorian times which saw the birth of the Industrial Revolution. Although Ireland missed the full impact of this (we were the bread basket, aka remaining predominantly agricultural and providing the food for the Empire's engine room, aka Britain; but sure did'nt even Victoria pay a visit to Dublin in the early 1900's and all the Dubs were out to greet her waving their Union Jacks)).... Dublin maintained the hustle and bustle in a way of city life ....... professionals and trades people.....cafe life:Bewleys; coopers, seamstresses, tailors, etc........all going about their day to day business ..........which all came somewhat to an end with changing times and the economic rut of the 1950's and the ups and downs onwards.
I think Ciaran you should read a few more books on the social history as well as the architectural history of the city and country so as you can shake off such hang ups and accept who we are as an Irish society today and who are indeed made up of many facets.

Here's a fews thing for you to read and look up that may help you.......





The A to Z of Georgian Dublin, Harry Margary

The Genius of Robert Adam - his interiors

The Heart of Dublin, by Peter Pearson

Dublin Tenement Life: An Oral History
by Kevin Corrigan Kearns (Editor)

Dublin an Urban History by Niall McCullough

Dublin's Little Jerusalem by Nick Harris.

and don't forget the books from Frank McDonald regarding the city........

The Destruction of Dublin
Saving the City
The Construction of Dublin

It's all there man and more to be read and learned.
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Postby Simon » Fri Jan 17, 2003 2:03 pm

Also the greatest book ever written about the development of the city and the only developer with vision and a love for his native city ..the book DUBLIN 1660~1860 by Maurice Craig and the developer the one and only Luke Gardiner.
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Postby DaM » Fri Jan 17, 2003 6:06 pm

To keep both sides happy .......

you could read Hugh Campbells postgraduate study in UCD on the influence of nationalism on Dublin's architecture and fabric........its charts the development of the city from 1830/50 upwards to the time of joyce ......if I remember correctly...
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Postby CiaranO » Fri Jan 17, 2003 6:16 pm

well Greg thats a whole lot of effort and i have to say its commendable that you wish to educate someone to your way of thinking and go to such lengths to do so.

I use the term west brit, would you prefer seoneen?, as I feel there is a great amount of revisionism on this site, compared to say an historical site regarding Irish history, yes I have studied history and just not to agree with your point does not make me ignorant. I happen to believe that the negative points of our colonial past outweigh the positives while most of you here are happy to have some outstanding architecture as a reminder of such happy times.

I belive this is looking at the past through red white and blue tinted glasses.

This is not an anti-brit tirade, it's an anti-irish rant. Those here who feel we should be back in the commonwealth etc.

My head out of An Phoblacht? You are so predictable, the typical response to someone who may speak in negative terms of british influence in Irelands social preogression, is co boring. and juvenile rhetoric too I hasten to add Greg.

Much more juvenile that the employment of the term west brit.

I really appreciate the structures we have been left with, but I do not think they have come about in a way in which I feel proud of them or many other people do. they were not bulit for the Irish for the pride of the Irish, so I cant help feel im left having to love someone else child.

Nuy the way my point about Aierlan was that she wrote of us being excited at having ringside seats for the empires forward strides... well I happen to think we still look to our neighbour too much for direction and leadership and to have the idea that Aierlan is overjoyed by being on the british coattails, a bit like ireland's masses of premiership supporters, is in my opinion, quite sad.

Rory W. You are only not being anti-british because you support an english team? What a childish statement. Does that imply those who do not support an english team are free to be anti-british without hypocrisy. I dont support an english team, so I am free from hypocrisy. Great stuff. Thanks! :(

I lived in england for three years, and have studied there too, to suggest that I need to rewrite my history or theirs to do this and appreciate both states is bizarre, Most of us on this site are for a progressive and exciting Irish society and surroundings, so why do so many of you fall back to your 'yes master' mode and wish we could be more british.

Not anti-british, anti-anti-irish.

Cheers again Greg, ill check them out.

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Postby Niall » Fri Jan 17, 2003 6:38 pm

Please can we call a halt? Let's stick to the architecture and not personaliities and especially not politics...

The guy who started this thread is a foreigner, what kind of an impression are we giving..?

live let live and call a draw on this one.

Happy weekend to all!
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Postby CiaranO » Fri Jan 17, 2003 6:41 pm

not a problem.

I noticed he's a foreigner and I think that he is getting a particularly negative impresion from some on ther with nothing better to do than bemoan all things Irish, Not that Im delighted about it either, but no need to be so ani-irish.

I have no personal problem but i do think politics pervades everything, even architecture, but I hate revisionism!

however your right NIall, ill get on with it, and just ignore it....

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Postby GrahamH » Fri Jan 17, 2003 7:41 pm

Oh the Greg v Ciaran debates, how I enjoy them. It is extraordinary how the slightest mention of the British sends Ciaran into a frenzy, I also being a victim of his rants at an earlier time.

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Postby CiaranO » Fri Jan 17, 2003 7:56 pm

haha graham,
tis not the mere mentioning of them more the revisionism attached....

go on try me, go on


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Postby DARA H » Sat Jan 18, 2003 12:25 am

Back to the original question.
It seems questionable whether or not Dublin is ever going to produce many tower blocks such as those in many European cities where they are developed in clusters around business districts. As the docklands have shown, so far, development has been relatively low-rise, - Buildings with wide plots relative to their heights - which lend them a fairly squat appearence.
It does seem however that what 'tower blocks' and 'high rises' may come about will be keeping to a circa 60m heigth a la Liberty Hall.

It will be a long time before resistance is broken down to have such heights in residential formats seeing as past experinece has (to the public knowledge) being bad & any other high rise schemes have pretty much been resticted to 'luxury' apartments.

In Dublin Suburbs and other towns around the country efforts at higher densities is really just resulting in 2 storey houses in closer proximity to eachother & 'infill' houses in side plots etc.
- trying to following the Dept. of Environments 'Residential Density Guidelines, 1999' - some councils cite it a lot and use it as a handy reference - some (outside Dublin esp.) ignored it as it seemed irrelavant e.g. "higher densities linked to public transport?..... There is no public transport!"

One of the oft mentioned places for higher densities is the Netherlands e.g. new developments in Dublin with permiter blocks and low-rise apartments -...the Dutch (& Scandinavian) low-rise approach being more palatable to Irish tastes.

Hope above offers a bit of a better response to the original question!
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Postby GregF » Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:50 am

Well done Ciaran, Whatever!.....good man.......Here's to ye..........Zzzzzzzzzzzzz!
.....I love that hotel in Dubai ...the Burj Al Arab....(Arab Towers) do you. Would'nt it be nice to build something like that down the Dublin Docks...... I was lucky enough to stay there with me girlfriend 2 years ago. It was a luxurious place and a great hoilday.
Architecture can change people lives for the better, can't it.
Despite being half Spanish and an American DeValera's favorite meal was'nt piella but plain old bacon and cabbage...'but it tastes even better with English mustard' as Collins said, as he loved it.
Our hero met a premature end however.
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Postby Rory W » Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:11 pm

Apologies for this folks but since I was called "Childish" I think I should respond

Ciaran, when I was accused of being Anti-British (for mentioning the fact that the city went into decline after the act of Union) I was mearly stating a historic fact. If the city did not decline in importance and I had said that it had, and blamed the British for this, this I would have been expressing an anti-British sentiment. I mearly stated a fact.

My second point was that we are culturally influenced by our nearest neighbour - to deny that this is the case is wrong. For me personaly to be anti-British, without acknowledging the daily impact that Britain has on our lives is hypocritical. I believe in treating the UK as an equal partner in Europe, not a former coloniser, an equal and as such we should not defer to anyone. I am not nor never plan to be neither pro nor anti British.

I welcome the fact that we are influenced by probably all European cultures, long may it continue, and long may we continue to influence other European cultures.

I have no interest in the continuence of this argument as it is futile.

Now - I hope that clears everything up and we can get back to discussing architecture.
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Postby urbanisto » Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:15 pm

here here!
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