Real Landmark for Dublin

Postby kefu » Thu Nov 21, 2002 8:20 pm

yeah, but if you keep reading, it turns into a discussion about the quality of pints of Guinness

and then, and I'm the only person I know who actually likes Limerick City, there's an argument about how much better Limerick is than Dublin.
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Postby GregF » Fri Nov 22, 2002 10:32 am

There we go again.....another portrayal from the outside of us Irish as being small, insignificant, insular and thick........aka leprecauns and all that.......probably worried in case we may challange the height of Canada House in Canary Wharf, Europes tallest building.....and well done to them for that.
But after all what other country on planet earth puts the word 'great 'before it's name. However maybe stereotypes of nationalities are true, maybe we are thick, insular and insignificant....well given the recent debacles over building the most fundalmental and basic of things that a modern society require.
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Auckland tower

Postby Desmund » Fri Nov 22, 2002 10:41 am

Does anyone know the height of this NZ Tower? Just trying to get a comparison with the spike.
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Postby John Smith » Fri Nov 22, 2002 11:21 am

The Auckland Sky Tower is 328m tall. It is a totally different prospect to the spike and would need a good site on which to be placed.

The tower has a large complex around the base which houses a casino and bars and restaurants.

Details can be found at http://www.skyscrapers.com/english/worldmap/building/0.9/120177/
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Postby fjp » Fri Nov 22, 2002 11:25 am

Don't forget that the observation deck on Liberty Hall is used for paper storage.

Makes you think...

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Postby Paul Clerkin » Fri Nov 22, 2002 11:32 am

Yes ftp but NZ didnt have a terrorist problem until recently.
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Postby ro_G » Fri Nov 22, 2002 12:31 pm

Originally posted by fjp
Don't forget that the observation deck on Liberty Hall is used for paper storage.

Makes you think...

fjp


makes me think that is a very bad place for storing paper in. it will get moist and expand and contract something horrific. But thats just the bookbinder in me talking.

RE: New Zeland,
They use the 13-storey Novotel Hotel in Auckland for 'rap jumping' - i.e. you start running off the top of the building and then keep running until a harness grabs you, hmmm... wonder if Siptu would cover that in their facilities insurance.

http://www.bongoguy.com/html/UrbanRapJumping.html
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Postby John Smith » Fri Nov 22, 2002 1:14 pm

Yeah that's true.

They also have a controlled free fall of the Sky Tower 192m up. You are attached to a verticle cable by a harness. When you jump you free fall for a while and then you gradually come to stop at the bottom, landing safely on your feet.

But then in New Zealand they'll do anything for a thrill.
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Postby fjp » Fri Nov 22, 2002 1:49 pm

Just to clarify - the papers are actually indoors, behind glass, so I presume moisture is minimised. Terrorism?? Me no quite understand, but I was told the Liberty Ob deck was closed due to suicides/potential suicides (ie, self terrorism). No third party terrorist reasons were mentioned.

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Postby brunel » Fri Nov 22, 2002 2:52 pm

Well i think in the '70's a bomb shattered much of the glass cladding and thereafter the observation deck was closed... Those responsible for the bombing at Liberty Hall (and also at Sackville Place i think ?!?) was the cause of some debate, with both the IRA and British Intelligence suspected...
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Re: Real Landmark for Dublin

Postby alphasun » Fri Nov 22, 2002 3:30 pm

[quote
I believe Dublin and Ireland need a structure of this stature, to provide us with the same kind of identity. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't as Auckland is also a city of circa 1 million and New Zealand has a population similar to Ireland's. The only difference is that our economy is in a much stronger position. [/B][/QUOTE]

I have long held a similar view. Most of our modern public statuary and architecture is a disgrace (the latter has improved in the boom period), and the lack of a tourist facility of this kind is a major gap in the Eblanascape. Ideally such a structure should greet the arriving visitor or be siuated on the central plain. One problem is to find a noble value such as Liberty to be embodied by the structure-- the present Spike is a pathetic abstraction from that point of view.
Idealism aside, a colossal stylised harp-shaped tower that would fulfiull the same tourist function as the Eiffel tower is one possibility. I believe Dublin would benefit from an overhead transport route from North to South of the centre, and this structure could also provide that-- rather like a switchback, but not ugly. There would also be a port for future air vehicles.
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Postby Rory W » Fri Nov 22, 2002 6:01 pm

Keep taking the pills...
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Re: Re: Real Landmark for Dublin

Postby ro_G » Fri Nov 22, 2002 10:44 pm

Originally posted by alphasun
Idealism aside, a colossal stylised harp-shaped tower that would fulfiull the same tourist function as the Eiffel tower is one possibility[/B]


lol! begorrah.
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Real Landmark for Dublin

Postby alphasun » Sat Nov 23, 2002 12:05 am

Originally posted by Rory W
Keep taking the pills...


I need them to stand Dublin's architecture (with some honourable exceptions, mainly recent).
I thought the French example (much derided when it was first put up) might be received favourably, since a French building is featured on this site. Is that because our more venerable buildings have British associations?
What would be a suitable theme for a large-scale monument in your view?
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Postby kefu » Sat Nov 23, 2002 10:34 am

I think when the Spire is erected, we'll all realise just how elegant a design it is, simple and understated. The Skytower in Auckland is not really the example we necessarily want to be following - it's clunky and there are as already pointed out, several similar things, around the world. I doubt visitors will ever come specificially to see the Spike but I think it will become one of Dublin's defining landmarks. Re: viewing towers - there are two good ones already in the city, one of which doesn't even attract that many visitors.
I think a giant novelty harp would be as interesting as a 120-metre high pint of Guiness or another enormous crucifix. No doubt some people would like it but is it really the emblem we want of Dublin.
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Postby brunel » Sat Nov 23, 2002 5:24 pm

I agree and think the spire will be a success due to its originality and elegance... it has the potential to be a defining feature unlike the two new bridges for example which, although good in their own way, are in no way significant on a european/world scale...

But a "120-metre high pint of Guinness", now there's an idea !! And we could have bungy jumps where u would pay more to go deeper into it, giving u more time to gulp as much as possible... the corpo would make a fortune from all the kiwis coming over !! :D
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Real landmark for Dublin

Postby alphasun » Sat Nov 23, 2002 10:23 pm

Originally posted by kefu
I doubt visitors will ever come specificially to see the Spike but I think it will become one of Dublin's defining landmarks


This is my point-- there is nothing to do with the spike except look at it. An attraction one could admire on the artistic level but also use as a vantage point and site for various facilities would have tremendous economic potential for a city that badly needs tourist attractions, preferably on the wonder of the world level, apart from the aesthetic needs of the population.
True, the needle is elegant in a simplistic 'pure' way, and may look well at night when lit up, but it reminds me of the Skylon at the Festival of Britain in the fifties, re-erected recently-- it has no function other than to give an impression of modernity. Very exciting visually in those early days of 'space'. The spike could recall an ICBM-- perhaps as a secular echo of a (painful-looking) spire it has a certain appropriateness. But I don't think it will increase revenue or prestige to the extent that could have been achieved with more imagination.
Another suggestion-- have a mag-lev train running in in a straight line from the airport to a city centre terminal that would also serve tourist airships for a slow luxurious scenic trip round the country. Or rebuild Brunel's pneumatic railway.
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Re: Real landmark for Dublin

Postby LOB » Sun Nov 24, 2002 3:24 pm

Originally posted by alphasun

Or rebuild Brunel's pneumatic railway.
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excuse me for being a pedant

I had my doubts about Brunel's involvement in the Dublin one so i sourced this from a site on athmospheric railways

"I note in passing that while I (as a fan of his) might like Isambard
Kingdom Brunel to have invented the atmospheric system used on the
South Devon, it is wrong to say that he did so, as is sometimes done.
He did choose it for the line and actively promoted it (well, "actively"
is redundant with Brunel). It was actually developed by Samuel Clegg
and Joseph and Jacob Samuda."
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Re: Re: Real landmark for Dublin

Postby alphasun » Sun Nov 24, 2002 4:40 pm

Originally posted by LOB


excuse me for being a pedant

I had my doubts about Brunel's involvement in the Dublin one so i sourced this from a site on athmospheric railways ...
[Brunel] did choose it for the line and actively promoted it (well, "actively"
is redundant with Brunel). It was actually developed by Samuel Clegg
and Joseph and Jacob Samuda."


No problem, you are right, though i didn't say he invented it--I had also researched this some time ago because the former route (now the southern DART line) runs close to my home. You point out a key factor-- Brunel's dynamism and willingness to promote new technology. Of course, this depended on vast resources, and I would like to echo editor of the S. Bus. Post Damon Kiberd's recent appeal for more foreign private capital to be invited into Irish public projects (NDP)-- perhaps then we may get a more Brunelesque approach.
Have we any Dargans?
By the way, I am emphatically against big, unsound projects for their own sake-- I am talking about stuff that will bear comparison with Brunel's work. The port tunnel seems worthwhile and brings us up to the level of Cork in this area-- this is the way to go.
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Postby brunel » Sun Nov 24, 2002 9:35 pm

have a mag-lev train running in a straight line from the airport to a city centre terminal that would also serve tourist airships for a slow luxurious scenic trip round the country. Or rebuild Brunel's pneumatic railway.


Ok I don't want to be the typically pessimistic here but the term "ah for f#ck sake" quickly comes to mind...

On a practical note how the hell is one to get a "straight line", presumably above ground, from Swords to the city centre ?!? And remember we are a small country who can't even get there act together and build a metro, not the mind the years it took to get the port tunnel underway (which btw cannot be compared to the pretty small Lee tunnel). The only place i have heard where a "mag-lev" train is being used is in the Ruhr Valley in Germany - and to think that we can make one viable here is just not worth taking about. An ordinary damn train/metro/tram service would do fine, and the chances of us seeing one in the next 10years look pretty damn slim now without bringing magnetic levitation into it !!!

As for all this talk of Brunel, well as you can gather from the tag i am a fan, but the more you read about this guy the more you see that he was not the 'total hero' that LTC Rolt made him out to be. Of course he achieved fantastic things, but he was driven, to a large extent, by his ego. And in this day, where 'consultation' is the buzzword, there is no place for a "Brunelesque" approach.

As i near the end of my rant :) I would like to point out the fact that 'Public Private Partnerships" are of course bringing in foreign capital, however we Irish have to get used to the consequence of tolls... something which may take some time…
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Postby alphasun » Mon Nov 25, 2002 11:49 am

[quote]: For f\ck's sake etc [UNQUOTE]
We need something that makes the visitor use a similar phrase!
I had in mind an elevated system-- perhaps the terrain is too hilly. To be honest, an intercity route or an indirect wide curve along the coast might be more appropriate, since the speeds involved are around 250 kph. Here's a link to the proposed project in China:
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200101/21/eng20010121_61101.html
With the boom over, such a project would indeed seem to be beyond our reach, although I wonder how a cost benefit analysis of this versus a corresponding moterway would work out.
However, I stick to my main point, that Dublin needs something thrilling, interesting and impressive to attract the world to Ireland and confirm our status as a small but go-ahead, modern country. These extremely fast, silent trains could whisk visitors to our scenic areas in minutes straight from the airport-- would that increase tourism and business interest?-- I suspect it would.
Perhaps it is time to invite the Germans in again as at Ardnacrusha. I wonder what the cost of that project was to Ireland in those prosperous 1930s?
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Postby John Smith » Mon Nov 25, 2002 1:35 pm

Here, Here!!!, alphasun.

Thats the kind of thing I want to hear!!
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Postby Rory W » Mon Nov 25, 2002 6:28 pm

I think that before we run we should learn to walk - the existing train lines (see rants passim) need new rolling stock etc (I'm heading down to connolly to get a train that was built in the 1950s) so before we get Mag Trains, some ordinary ones would do nicely!!
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Postby alphasun » Mon Nov 25, 2002 7:39 pm

Originally posted by Rory W
I think that before we run we should learn to walk - .....before we get Mag Trains, some ordinary ones would do nicely!!


I take your point and we seem to be stuck with that line of action anyway, but is it is sensible as it looks? In some technologies, the old just holds up the new-- for example, in one of the African countries they are implementing the latest wireless broadband networks instead of updating old cable networks like the ones we have.
From a transport point of view, I expect LUAS may not be too bad-- trams are tried and tested -- but my preference would be to get a full system of bus lanes established, then install an automatic vehicle network. To go from say Dublin St Green to Dunlaoghaire, instead of presenting yourself at the DART station you would hop on a taxi-sized automatic buslane vehicle running on a continuous route of about a mile, spaced at say 100m intervals from similar vehicles. Availability for your destination would be indicated on the front. This would take you and anyone else on the loop to the nearest DART terminal, (now just a ramp installation) get on to it and go to a similar loop in Dunlaoighaire. Vehicles would be distributed by a computer program. Road works would be less than for LUAS.
This kind of Disney(real)world project would make Dublin a tourist attraction as well as improving transport. I mention Disneyworld because that's where multitudes flock from these islands in order to travel on futuristic railways and see such things as Epcot. Contrast this with the poor souls on those open-top buses --at least we have Viking Splash tours.
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Postby Andrew Duffy » Tue Nov 26, 2002 11:05 am

I wonder what the cost of that project was to Ireland in those prosperous 1930s?


The project cost £5.5m, which was about 20% of the budget in 1925. This would be the equivalent of starting an €8-10b project now and completing it in three years. Metro, anyone?

Read about it here:

http://www.ieee.org/organizations/history_center/milestones_photos/shannon_scheme.html
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