Cork Harbour

Re: Cork Harbour

Postby lawyer » Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:55 pm

goldiefish wrote:The Irish Navy always do, but that to salute the Flag on their water tower (painted yellow and black). Visiting warships also do too. Its established naval tradition, the purpose being to demonstrate that no crew were operating the ships guns.

As for its significance, did you miss the bit where I explained about it being a vital aid to navigation?


I remember watching the USS The Sullivans coming into Cobh during the summer.
In addition to 3 or 4 RIBS -all flying the Stars and Stripes- buzzing around the warship, every gun on deck was manned by crew in full battle dress.
I wondered what they do when visiting a country that is not classified as 'friendly'
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby samuel j » Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:05 pm

lawyer wrote:I remember watching the USS The Sullivans coming into Cobh during the summer.
In addition to 3 or 4 RIBS -all flying the Stars and Stripes- buzzing around the warship, every gun on deck was manned by crew in full battle dress.
I wondered what they do when visiting a country that is not classified as 'friendly'


Friendly..... know of a British Captain that was so worried that he would come under fire going up river he requested could he go up river 'astern'...(backwards) so he could get away quick if the natives got hostile... he was serious.....
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby Praxiteles » Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:35 pm

samuel j wrote:I take your point that if fog or heavy rain then one cannot see landmarks for using transits etc. but in dense fog or zero vis. commercial traffic movements will be halted until such time as the Pilot and Port Operations
are both happy with vis. Does mean vessels remaining at anchor off Spike or outside Roches Point.
Constant checks are made of vis of all areas, approaches, lower harbour, lough mahon ...
I guarantee you any professional seafarer will much rather and trust his own eyes for visual checks. Most if not all now have Radar/GPS, pleasure craft too, but in the times of low vis as you describe, you would be surprised how very often towers etc. can still be made out....and when one does, joy that one can confirm/backup electronic nav aids.

But in zero vis. you are right but fortunately harbour pilots etc. agree with you, so ships stay put....

Cobh ....you're an awful man.... for the yast 5 years we have started exportin a lot of young professionals each morning to Cork City...the odd architect even..... the Importation back each evening does have its drawbacks though.... all these new housing estates.... admittedly though in the county planning juristication.


Sam!

Thanks a million for seeing clearly the point I have being trying to make with Goldiefish for two days: the watertower is useless to you in 0 visibility conditions for any kind of navigation because you simply cannot see it. That was all I was trying to say and I do not think it represents either an entrenched position or incorrigibility on my part. I was merely stating a fact that you were kind enough to vouchsafe for the general readership.

On the basis of that fact, I think we can then say that the watertower is only RELATIVELY important for navigation in the harbour of Cork; and, hence, is not VITAL to navigating even a rowing boat. Given this, and the other fact that any prominent landmark will do for navigation in fair weather, then there is no excuse left for retaining that ugly lump of a watertower and no reason not to tear it down and put somewhere else out of sight. Did you see Corcaighboy's loverly picture with the scaffolded spire? Why not use that, or even the palace? No that we see that there is no REASON for that ugly blot on the landscape, we will have to do something to wake the Cobh Urban District Council out of their slumberous laziness and get them to send someone up there to demolish it. This being an election year........

As for Goldiefish and seeing the watertower in the dark, is there any chance that he might not have been thinking of navagating upriver underwater in a U-BOOT with one of those lazer pariscopes?
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby Praxiteles » Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:40 pm

samuel j wrote:Friendly..... know of a British Captain that was so worried that he would come under fire going up river he requested could he go up river 'astern'...(backwards) so he could get away quick if the natives got hostile... he was serious.....


The only English captain worth his navigation salt on the Cove of Cork was Sir Francis Drake who managed to get a FLEET up river, without the relative aid of the Cobh watertower, and HIDE it at low tide in the Glanmire backwash.

It is just as well that the navigation of the Cove of Cork is in the trustworthy hands of the Port of Cork. Imagine trying to get anywhere on the river had the navigation been entrusted to Cobh Urban District Council. Given their level of laziness and ineptitude, we could expect to see a cock up like the Battle of Jutland on a daily basis and we would have to listen to sleepy officials telling us that they were familiar with the navigation charts and that they had read them all in the space of a few minutes each despite which, however, they had mastered the channells and knew exactly what should should be done but could explain the daily Jutland!!
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby samuel j » Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:19 pm

[quote="Praxiteles"]Sam!

On the basis of that fact, I think we can then say that the watertower is only RELATIVELY important for navigation in the harbour of Cork; and, hence, is not VITAL to navigating even a rowing boat. Given this, and the other fact that any prominent landmark will do for navigation in fair weather, then there is no excuse left for retaining that ugly lump of a watertower and no reason not to tear it down and put somewhere else out of sight. Did you see Corcaighboy's loverly picture with the scaffolded spire? Why not use that, or even the palace? No that we see that there is no REASON for that ugly blot on the landscape, we will have to do something to wake the Cobh Urban District Council out of their slumberous laziness and get them to send someone up there to demolish it. This being an election year........

VITAL - I would think not, at least not to commercial traffic.... it assists pilotage and is a cross check as such but all vessels now over 500 tonnes have AIS (akin to aircraft transponders) ot Port Ops can at all times see the location, heading, speed of a vessel...and can call up an erring vessel. Still up to poor lad in command of vessel but jut another nav aid.
As I've said most skippers/pilots still like the old visual and lets say spires, towers and suchlike are perfect as one can quickly use to see if you are drifting off course due to wind and tide. so buildings are usuful but a good old tower better. You have leading marks/lights on the south side of Fort Davis which provide lead marks into the harbour...so towers etc. in the inner harbour are the next best thing so to speak.
The Spit Lighthouse.... looking out at it now... beautiful structure, thankfully under the POCs maintenace.
It is used all the time but using it in line with something ashore to give you a transit line... if you just aim for the lighthouse...you'll go aground as it just marks the edge of the spit Bank and not the actual channel.

Lets hope the wise Bishops have no plans up their sleeves for the Cathedral Spire.... as it is the mother of landmarks for seafarers..... hopefully Bord Planeala have put them in their box...for a while anyway...
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby Praxiteles » Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:25 pm

For good and glory and I hope you bought the book and the calendar - if not I'll have some one take them out to you.
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby lawyer » Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:27 pm

Praxiteles wrote:The only English captain worth his navigation salt on the Cove of Cork was Sir Francis Drake who managed to get a FLEET up river, without the relative aid of the Cobh watertower, and HIDE it at low tide in the Glanmire backwash.

It is just as well that the navigation of the Cove of Cork is in the trustworthy hands of the Port of Cork. Imagine trying to get anywhere on the river had the navigation been entrusted to Cobh Urban District Council. Given their level of laziness and ineptitude, we could expect to see a cock up like the Battle of Jutland on a daily basis and we would have to listen to sleepy officials telling us that they were familiar with the navigation charts and that they had read them all in the space of a few minutes each despite which, however, they had mastered the channells and knew exactly what should should be done but could explain the daily Jutland!!


You may be able to move altars but you cannot move rivers

The 'Glanmire backwash' is on the north side of Cork Harbour. Drakes Pool is on the south side

Your continuing comments against the Cobh UDC resemble Michael O'Leary's rants against the Government, Dublin Airport Authority, Aer Lingus and anyone else who does not see things his way.
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby samuel j » Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:30 pm

Praxiteles wrote:It is just as well that the navigation of the Cove of Cork is in the trustworthy hands of the Port of Cork. Imagine trying to get anywhere on the river had the navigation been entrusted to Cobh Urban District Council. !!


Oh dear God.... That a scenario that would take me off the sea forever......

They would probably make the Spit Lighthouse into a Recycling Depot with a payment clerk in situ for taking the anchoring fines - Eur 45 for longer than 1 hour.

Jokes aside, You do seem to have it in for Cobh Town Council.... Is this just post the Cathedral debacle or are there other events that have made you form such a strong view ...
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby Praxiteles » Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:42 pm

lawyer wrote:You may be able to move altars but you cannot move rivers

The 'Glanmire backwash' is on the north side of Cork Harbour. Drakes Pool is on the south side

Your continuing comments against the Cobh UDC resemble Michael O'Leary's rants against the Government, Dublin Airport Authority, Aer Lingus and anyone else who does not see things his way.


Ah so! You are commenting for Cobh Urban District Council? 'Tis nice to know they have one friend in the whole wide world.

Things are so bad in Cobh Urban District Council that they cannot put three boxes containing 214 objections, made by c.750 persons, to a proposed development in the way of the temporary planning officer brought in to read them.
Needless to say, the money charged to the public for lodging such objections was never heard of again. If you want to defend that sort of ineptitude and plain bolchevism, just be my guest. Is it too much for the ordinary public -the man in the street- to expect public servants, whom he is paying, to do their duty?
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby Praxiteles » Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:52 pm

samuel j wrote:Oh dear God.... That a scenario that would take me off the sea forever......

They would probably make the Spit Lighthouse into a Recycling Depot with a payment clerk in situ for taking the anchoring fines - Eur 45 for longer than 1 hour.

Jokes aside, You do seem to have it in for Cobh Town Council.... Is this just post the Cathedral debacle or are there other events that have made you form such a strong view ...


This is not a strong view at all. Like non-navigating in the dark, it is a statemnt of fact that the Cobh Urban District Council could not run an urban kennels let alone Urban District. They must be one of the greatest menaces to democracy in western hemisphere and they are answereable to no one. While they operate behind a sham veneer of democracy, the people you elect in Cobh to represent you in local government, are reduced to silence by the undemocratically appointed appraachniks who make all the decisions without the slightest interest in the will of the people. The roten boroughs of the 1830 would not hold candle light to it. Just take a look at the Council Minute Book on their website. While you have that ugly lump of a watertower up there, the counsellors are only allowed to talk about cracked pavings on the footpaths. Put the sham democracy out of its misery and officialize the Gauleiter(in).
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby samuel j » Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:54 pm

Yeah valid point..... would have been in the 750 myself....so biased I guess.
Have you had other incidents of note with them..... any thoughts on the Garda Headquarters on the Lower Road in Cobh.... from sea it very much out of place with splendid Victorian buildings on all sides.
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby THE_Chris » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:00 pm

They say its supposed to look like a Ferry.

It just succeeds in looking stupid :D
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby samuel j » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:05 pm

A Ferry, so we're led to believe. as such it does but would have thought plenty of the real thing pass every day so why bother. I just feel that given the spendid Victorian buildings on each side of it, above it and indeed the railway station/heritage centre it is totally out of place and more like a Ferry gone agound....
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby Praxiteles » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:32 pm

And dare one ask who is responsible for this mess at local government level?
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby corcaighboy » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:45 pm

I have to say that in my opinion, the Garda building in Cobh is out of character given its location (in the old railway goods yard). Here is how the OPW descibe it:
"The site is located beside the railway overlooking Cork Harbour and the Deep Water Quay. A derelict Victorian brick building 140-metre long by 13.5 metre wide, designed as a railway carriage shed, occupied most of the site, with the floor 4 metres below the street, level with the railway line. It was decided to use the existing brick walls of the carriage shed as the outer shell of the new building at the lower level, and to enclose a covered car park. A concrete column and slab structure was built within the brick enclosure. This was clad in aluminium curtain walling. The south elevation facing the sea is mainly glass with continuous timber decks, which act as bris-soleil as well as providing access for cleaning and maintenance, thus avoiding the need for access onto the railway line. As the building is overlooked from the High Road, green roofs were constructed on both the main building and over the car park."

I love the reference to 'bris-soleil'!! Can't seem to find any photos on the web.
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby Praxiteles » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:01 pm

I wonder fo the Guards realize the significance of a "bris-soleil" for their sun tans?
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby samuel j » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:03 pm

Have none from sea where one really can see how out of place it is but found these
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby lawyer » Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:13 pm

Praxiteles wrote:Ah so! You are commenting for Cobh Urban District Council? 'Tis nice to know they have one friend in the whole wide world.

Things are so bad in Cobh Urban District Council that they cannot put three boxes containing 214 objections, made by c.750 persons, to a proposed development in the way of the temporary planning officer brought in to read them.
Needless to say, the money charged to the public for lodging such objections was never heard of again. If you want to defend that sort of ineptitude and plain bolchevism, just be my guest. Is it too much for the ordinary public -the man in the street- to expect public servants, whom he is paying, to do their duty?


You are sounding like George W. now.
Either you agree with me or you support 'the axis of evil'
I do not live in Cobh nor do I know any members of its Urban District Council.
I just do not think that this thread is the right place for you to be conducting your campaign -regardless of your reasons.
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby kite » Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:13 pm

samuel j wrote:Have none from sea where one really can see how out of place it is but found these


:o Please tell me that this is a superimposed joke image, that building is not located in Cobh, is it?
If it is the planners should have included a plank in the conditions….so they could be forced to walk it, self indulgent prestigious prats.
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby samuel j » Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:40 pm

I'm afraid not..... but is really if viewed from the sea that one sees how out of place the Garda Regional Headquarters is. Its there many year now but every time I pass it (by sea) i cannot believe it was allowed.
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby Praxiteles » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:40 pm

lawyer wrote:You are sounding like George W. now.
Either you agree with me or you support 'the axis of evil'
I do not live in Cobh nor do I know any members of its Urban District Council.
I just do not think that this thread is the right place for you to be conducting your campaign -regardless of your reasons.


My understanding of this thread is that it is a forum to discuss and comment on developments in Cork Harbour. I have highlighted two inappropriate developments: an ungainly watertower that anoth contrubutor regrads as probably in violation of ridge conservation guidelines]nous[/I] of Cobh Urban District Council arrives anywhere near the least common denominator to qualify it as an intelligent subject !! What are we to do? CLose our eyes to the facts before us?
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby kite » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:42 pm

samuel j wrote:I'm afraid not..... but is really if viewed from the sea that one sees how out of place the Garda Regional Headquarters is. Its there many year now but every time I pass it (by sea) i cannot believe it was allowed.


:eek: Did the Garda / OPW have to get permission for that, or are they exempt from the rule of law?
If planning was required the planner should be named and shamed.
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby Praxiteles » Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:35 am

kite wrote::eek: Did the Garda / OPW have to get permission for that, or are they exempt from the rule of law?
If planning was required the planner should be named and shamed.


Presumably they did have to obtain planning permission. No body-even a state body- is above the law. All are equally subject to the law. Or, at least, that is how it is in a democracy.

Is it any wonder taht we have public order issues when the agents of law and order undermine their own authority by playacting as Popeye, Captain Birdseye or even Long John Silver sailing on the good ship lollypop or the yellow submarine.

Cobh has one natural advantage that, hopefully, will ebventually take care of this piece of absurd detritus: it is subject to subsidence. Hopefuly, and not before too long, we will see a providential subsidence covering over yet another eye sore.

I agree with Kite. Thos responsible for this MUST be named and shamed starting with Cobh Urban District Council.
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby goldiefish » Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:59 am

Garda Buildings are the sole responsibility of the OPW. Cobh UDCs input into it extended no more than turning up to the official opening wearing their "robes of office".

I think while Praxi has occasionally some worthwhile points, the real problem in Cob-h is being overlooked. That is the utter state of deriliction of the buildings around the Lusitania monument. For a location that attracts the most tourists to the town after the Cathedral (which is contrary to some rumours not being knocked or painted purple by Bishop Magee).

Lets fix whats broke, before we break whats working.

Notice Garda District HQ on shoreline.
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby Praxiteles » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:11 am

Goldiefish!

Thanks for the compliment and I can return the same.

Re: the Guards barracks -what a heap - I just will have to go and so much for OPW.

In total agreement with clearing up the derelict buildings in the centre of the town.

I cnnot imagine the bishop of Cloyne in a pair of overalls painting aything any colour.
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