Cork Harbour

Re: Cork Harbour

Postby kite » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:41 pm

Praxiteles wrote:Now, just to be clear about it -in case I have missed something - this is what was highly commended for a HERITAGE entry in the Opus Competition. Has THE_CHRIS seen this?


:eek: Thats the one...
Take a look at what this joker O'Connor said in the Irish Times in 2005 when they gave Victoria Mills the award:mad:

Architecture contest where judges take a look
03/11/2005
Many architecture awards are judged just from pictures. Ciarán O'Connor explains to Emma Cullinan why the judges of the Opus Awards decided to look at the buildings as well
When Ciarán O'Connor, assistant principal architect at the OPW (Office of Public Works), was asked by Plan Expo in 1999 how it could restructure its architectural competition, he suggested that the judges should actually visit the buildings.
"I said that because I was disappointed, at the time, in the way that other competitions were done. I wouldn't cast aspertions on other award systems but I thought that just looking at pictures is a very dangerous way of judging something that is three dimensional."
Because visiting each building on the shortlist - of around 28 structures - is very time-consuming, O'Connor thought that he would never hear from Plan Expo again. But they went ahead with the idea and launched what became the Opus Awards.
Last year these changed again when it was decided to give joint awards to the architect and builder. If you don't have a symbiotic relationship between designer and contractor, then it is difficult to combine all of the elements needed to create a beautiful building, says O'Connor.
Visiting the buildings, which this year range from a small house extension in Dublin by NJBA Architects, through Heritage projects, to large schemes, such as Athlone Library and Civic Centre by Keith Williams Architects, has proved a learning experience for both O'Connor and the rest of the judges, who include building contractors and an engineer. "I enjoy going and seeing good quality work: handrails which are done very well or high quality stonework. These are all part and parcel of the process of building and should be acknowledged, but you won't experience them in a glossy picture."
The reality is that many people only experience architecture and interiors through pictures, in magazines and newspapers, but a visit does offer up a building in its unfiltered glory and it's also possible to get a feel for the atmosphere.
While the Opus shortlist, chosen this year from 135 entries, is fairly easy to draw up, from the pictures and drawings, the surprises - both good and bad - come when the judges visit the buildings. This year four buildings fell off the shortlist after they'd been visited. "In all four cases there was universal agreement. Two of them were a real surprise because the teams that were involved were people who in the past had worked to a very high standard. This time, for whatever reason, that didn't translate either in terms of the appropriateness of the design approach or the quality of the end result.
"We had an awful lot of night shots sent in for submission this year. I don't know whether people have decided that this is the 'in' way to create the right image or they think it looks best that way but there were certainly one or two projects which, in the fullness of light, did not look as well as they did at night time."
But sometimes the opposite can be true, where a picture doesn't do justice to the building. In one case, the façade was rather austere and staid yet the internal layout and build standard was excellent. "I softened when I saw the level of commitment and sheer quality of finish," says O'Connor.
In another case, last year, the judges put Box Architecture's Northern Exposure extension on the shortlist, which looked "okay" in the pictures and drawings.
"But when you walked in you just knew it was right and that feeling was almost universal. As the judges left the building we all said to each other: 'There's no issue there.' You could tell that the right decisions had been made in this extension: it was well-built but it also rose above pure utility and basic construction. It was humane, beautiful and well-executed."
In the sheltered housing and hostel in Gorey, Wexford by Paul Keogh Architects and Richard Browne and Sons, and Sonas Housing in Ringsend, Dublin by Cathal Crimmins Architects and WF Rowling, this year, the striking feature was the atmosphere and care taken. "The quality of some of the built work was really a joy and it was appreciated by the people. They were treated with dignity in the way that the buildings were designed and that was really impressive. People had put a lot of time and effort into an area of society that has been left behind by the Celtic tiger."
O'Connor thinks it is crucial to look at how original concepts are carried through to a built structure. He talks of ideas competitions "where you can get away with a lot of aspirational stuff which you don't have to translate into reality and where one concept or idea might wow a few judges. We would look at what the issues involved were, how well they were tackled and whether the end result justifies all that effort. You can start off with great notions but can you translate it?"
Rewarding the execution of a project will help dispel the notion that architects just do a few pretty sketches and that's the end of their role.While many people can imagine themselves as designers, few would be able to see a project through its building process to a stunning end result.
Experience of actual building is very helpful to architects, says O'Connor, although he finds that when he talks to students they are not keen on the idea because they think it is drudgery. Frank Lloyd Wright's architecture school in America certainly taught students to build - although many thought that it was just a cheap way of Wright having his own home built for him!
"We've had cases in the past where there was a very good idea but the way it was executed was atrocious," says O'Connor. "There's no refinement or elaboration in the process of execution so you end up with a built diagram. Sometimes it's in the way a material is used. There's a superficial knowledge, so that it is used like wallpaper, rather than knowing the history and character of the material.
"Glass, for instance, is a beautiful material but it can just become a bland finish to a building. It can seem to be the be-all and end-all of the elevation with no attempt to articulate anything. It's all got to do with the technology of how you hang the glass, which I think is a case of the tail wagging the dog.
"The technology should follow on from what you are striving to achieve rather than taking over from what you want to create. The end result can just be a big glass box or it can be something beautiful, elegant and light; which all the good glass buildings are. So it's not necessarily to do with the materials, it's to do with how they are used.
"This year there were a lot of exposed concrete finishes. In some cases they were very crude and it other cases they were very well finished. Some very dark concrete was used in an interior, which becomes very oppressive. In those cases you have to ask, do people really know what they were designing with and were the people doing the work suitably skilled to execute it? It's a questions of that yin/yang or that symbiotic relationship between architecture and building."
• The commended, highly commended and award-winning schemes in the Opus awards will be on show at Plan Expo in the RDS from November 10th to 12th

© The Irish Times
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby Praxiteles » Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:32 pm

Oh! the smutty little boy! where did he open the shop?

Did he get planning permission for it and, if so, who gave it to him?
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby kite » Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:43 am

Praxiteles wrote:Oh! the smutty little boy! where did he open the shop?

Did he get planning permission for it and, if so, who gave it to him?


He does not own the shop, he opened a branch of Ann Summers in Cork while representing our city as Lord Mayor (it was his turn to get the chain of office):rolleyes:
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby Praxiteles » Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:17 am

I cannot say that I know Ann Summers, or that I would care to know her (in any sense of the word), but opening a smut shop is hardly an activity that one would associate with a venerable office that, for the most part, has been occupied by men of some probity over the centuries. It all smaks of a faulty sense judgement which is hardly what is needed in a pubic representative. Clearly, we are dealing with smutty little boy!
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby Praxiteles » Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:28 am

I have just googled Ann Summers and decided that I do not want to know her under any circumstances. Clearly, Burke must be one of "the rampant rabbit thrusters" she is currently touting. I am surprised that the Irish feminist movement seems to have lost its zeal for campaigining against the exploitation of women. Their Eurpopean counterparts, especially their Italian counterparts, solved the problem smut shops blighting the urban landscape by pretty agressive, and successful, campaigns. Perhaps what is left of the Irish Feminist movement could be convinced that its best interests would not be represented in Europe by Burke and they might launch a counter candidate. After all, inner urban sleaze is bad enough without the smut.
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby samuel j » Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:49 am

Perhaps the old myxamotis got the better of him....
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby Praxiteles » Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:42 pm

This might explain the award for the refurbishment of the Custom House in CObh:

http://www.cobhharbourchamber.ie/businessnews.html
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby Praxiteles » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:44 pm

And Cobh Urban Disctrict Council features once again before An Bord Pleanala:

From the Great Island News:

FURTHER DELAYS FOR MARINA PLAN
An Bord Pleanála’s refusal to accept a local group of objectors appeal against the proposed marina was overturned by the High Court last week.
The planning board refused to accept that The Holy Ground and Environs Action Group had lodged a valid appeal on January 26th 2005 against the board’s decision to grant planning permission for a marina, 150 apartments in blocks of two and three storeys, a six-storey apartment building, commercial units and car park at Connolly Street or “The Holy Ground” here in Cobh.
Cobh Town Council had granted permission for the proposed development on December 16th 2004.The Board alleged the appeal was invalid because it had not been accompanied, as required by the Planning and Development Act 2000, by “an appropriate acknowledgement”.
Margaret Murphy, a member of the action group, challenged this refusal in judicial review proceedings and her challenge was granted by Mr. Justice MacMenamin.The letter of January 11th, 2005, sent by the group to the board was given within time and included the relevant information necessary for the board to proceed. Mr. Justice MacMenamin held “there was no prejudice to the board”.
During the High Court hearing Mr. Justice MacMenamin said the members of the action group objected to the development on the grounds of its impact on the local environment, a risk of landslides, ecological aspects and alleged destruction of views of Cork Harbour from a number of different vantage points.
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby kite » Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:18 pm

Praxiteles wrote:I have just googled Ann Summers and decided that I do not want to know her under any circumstances. Clearly, Burke must be one of "the rampant rabbit thrusters" she is currently touting. I am surprised that the Irish feminist movement seems to have lost its zeal for campaigining against the exploitation of women. Their Eurpopean counterparts, especially their Italian counterparts, solved the problem smut shops blighting the urban landscape by pretty agressive, and successful, campaigns. Perhaps what is left of the Irish Feminist movement could be convinced that its best interests would not be represented in Europe by Burke and they might launch a counter candidate. After all, inner urban sleaze is bad enough without the smut.


:o Poor old Colm Burke (F.G. Lord Mayor of Cork City) proberly could not see beond his fogged up glasses with all that flesh in view?
I agree that having this dude representing us women in Europe would be a disaster.
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby jungle » Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:17 pm

THE_Chris wrote:I would beg them though to stop the atrotious development of estates in the back of Cobh. Rushbrooke has been DESTROYED, and the area around Ticknock is being ruined. Crappy, crappy planning.


The thing that I always notice with Rushbrooke (especially when viewed from Monkstown) is the way the new houses cluster over the hill. In most of Cobh, the buildings run along the contours. I know that ignoring the hills is the way most other towns in Cork are built, but given the way the rest of Cobh is developed, I would have though it should have been a requirement for the new estates in Rushbrooke.
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby samuel j » Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:52 pm

Jungle
You are right. As far as I can see the only criterion for building in Rushbrooke is, are you near a main sewer and a water main. After that you can get away with any old crap, just once you pay up your fees and of course a few grand to get connected to water and sewerage... to Cobh TC.
When a developer comes along with a plan for an estate... and thousands in fees etc....it seems to go right out the window as the type of premises already there...which in Rushbrooke consists of many fine old Victorian buildings.
The_Chris is right about more to come..... and I fear it will be like many postings on Kildare, Meath with little thought given to other services required to cope with the population increases. I guess they feel the huge Garda station/show boat stuck in the middle or numerous Victorian premises will cope with all...
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby jungle » Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:56 pm

samuel j wrote:You are right. As far as I can see the only criterion for building in Rushbrooke is, are you near a main sewer and a water main. After that you can get away with any old crap, just once you pay up your fees and of course a few grand to connected to water and sewerage... to Cobh TC.


As I understood it though, it was a deliberate policy of Cork Co Co. Villages in Cork traditionally had a clustered effect, so they wanted that in new developments. The problem is that it doesn't give any respect to towns that have developed differently to this pattern.

I understand that they have issues with this in Courtmacsherry also, where a clustered development of holiday houses were built at the end of the village, while the village itself is generally developed along the contour of the hill and waterfront.
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby samuel j » Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:57 pm

Not sure if relevant, but much of what you see now from say Monkstown is in two different planning juristictions. The actual border if I can call it that between Cork County Council and Cobh Town Council goes pretty much up through the areas you can see and/or their roof lines.
I live in area and just across from me I'm looking at a development in Cork CCs area, about 500m away, then if I turn 90 degrees I'm looking another one going up about 200m away in Cobh TCs area. My point being, even if there was such
foresight, I fear left hand and right hand may not exactly share such wisdom. Could be wrong but as it stands
doesn't look like anyone gave it much thought.
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby jdivision » Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:52 pm

samuel j wrote:Not sure if relevant, but much of what you see now from say Monkstown is in two different planning juristictions. The actual border if I can it that between Cork County Council and Cobh Town Council goes pretty much up through the areas you can see and/or their roof lines.
I live in area and just across from me I'm looking at a development in Cork CCs area, about 500m away, then if I turn 90 degrees I'm looking another one going up about 200m away. My point being, even if there was such
foresight, I fear left hand and right hand may not exactly share such wisdom. Could be wrong but as it stands
doesn't look like anyone gave it much thought.

The solution is probably LAPs
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby samuel j » Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:31 pm

LAPs - you are right. It should. Reading through the Cobh Lap, which was only adopted by the TC in May 2005, there are wonderful passages. volume 1 page 9 and 10 are great. Alas much of iffy estates we now see were given planning pre 05 and Section on page 10 F this is exactly the area the garda building is.... Victorian buildings to its left, right and above. If the LAP is enforeced then great but I fear much of it is akin to closing the gate after the horse has bolted.
http://www.cobh.ie/files/Volume_1.pdf
http://www.cobh.ie/files/Volume_2.pdf
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby kite » Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:31 pm

jdivision wrote:The solution is probably LAPs


I’m not so sure that Local Area Plans are, or can be the solution to bad planning as LAP’s are non statutory and cannot be in conflict with the County (or City) Development Plans in place at the time.

Planning and Development (amendment) Act 2002
8.—Section 19 of the Principal Act is amended by substituting the following subsection for subsection (2):
"(2) A local area plan shall be consistent with the objectives of the development plan…

Hope this is of some help?
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby Praxiteles » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:48 pm

samuel j wrote:LAPs - you are right. It should. Reading through the Cobh Lap, which was only adopted by the TC in May 2005, there are wonderful passages. volume 1 page 9 and 10 are great. Alas much of iffy estates we now see were given planning pre 05 and Section on page 10 F this is exactly the area the garda building is.... Victorian buildings to its left, right and above. If the LAP is enforeced then great but I fear much of it is akin to closing the gate after the horse has bolted.
http://www.cobh.ie/files/Volume_1.pdf
http://www.cobh.ie/files/Volume_2.pdf


Thanks Sam for drawing our attention to such a wonderful document as the Cobh Development Plan. It really is a mine of comical entertainment. Were it not for the numerous grammatical errors it might have been entered for the Booker Prize for it certainly is a masterpiece of contemporary fiction.

Praxiteles would like to illustrate this with a few examples: the minds (if so we wish to call them) in operation in the Urban District Council cite a brace of directives from the Minister of the Environment on the lofty subject of bilingual place names. By that I take it mean that a sign indicating the name of a place should be in both English and Irish. Thus a traditional English place name will have an Irish equivalant and vice versa.

The Cobh Urban District Council, however, appears to have confused bilingualism and promotion of the Irish language. While not mutually exclusive terms, bilingualism and promotion of the Irish language are not synonymous terms.

On page 70 of the Development Plan the following is stated: "The Town Council has been to the fore in this movement [promotion of the Irish language] and will continue this policy as directed by the Minister for the Environment, directive (sic) F. 15/74 and F. 2/86, which states (sic): 'Local authorities should use a bilingual form of name plates for new housing areas and for new plates in old housing areas when they are due for replacement if an English only format is used at present'" (p. 70). We are then informed: "Under new regulations introduced in 2004 all signs and place names must be indicated in Irish, along with all other signs and council produced documents". And then, the following is intimated. "The most recently constructed council housing estate was given an Irish name. It is the intention (sic) that all new signs and place names that are erected will be in Irish. It is the intention (sic) also that all signs and documents will be in Irish" (p. 71).

What are we to make of all of this? Did the estate with the Irish name get a bilingual name-plate? Furthermore, given the amount of EU law on official languages withing the EU, it would be interesting to hear from some of our legal friends whether EU law might not require both the minister to amend his directives and Cobh Urban District Council their "intentions".

Notwithstanding the UDC's "intentions", I have been unable to find an Irish language version of the Council's minutes on the UDC webpage. When are we likely to see that?
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby samuel j » Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:31 pm

Praxiteles wrote: Were it not for the numerous grammatical errors it might have been entered for the Booker Prize for it certainly is a masterpiece of contemporary fiction.


Isn't it just.... Pages 9 and 10 of Volume II regarding objective that all developments must be designed to compliment existing architecture, townscape and character..... did anyone look at the street East and West of the Telly Tubbies TV aka new social welfare office.

Maybe its just me... but if that is in character....I am might as well sign up to the Telly tubbies fan forum and post no more in Archiseek.
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby corcaighboy » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:45 pm

Jungle, Samuel J - Here are a couple of aerial photos I took back in August which gives you some idea of the urban sprawl in the Cobh area.
Image

This shot gives an idea of the sprawl from Rushbrooke (with an 'e', correct?) The dockyard is also in the picture, as are the two large ESB pylons that caused much controversy a few years back when residents were seeking to have them put underwater rather than across the channel.
Image
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby samuel j » Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:56 pm

Great shots CB.... can spot my own old gaff in there....
in your no. 2 photo Nuns field by Norwood Convent recently sold and another 62 houses going in there.... it last field
next to Norwood Church. Its the last big field on picture 2 with church/convent on bottom left of it and above the dockyard

Will get some shots on Sunday of view from Monkstown towards this sprawl and will post....

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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby THE_Chris » Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:38 am

corcaighboy wrote:Jungle, Samuel J - Here are a couple of aerial photos I took back in August which gives you some idea of the urban sprawl in the Cobh area.
Image


The little village in the top left of this pic, in the distance, is Ballymore. Thats the place I mentioned that there would be a couple of hundred houses popping up in the next few years.

Criminal :( Theres no sewage treatment there (at all), only a local community water system, which ISNT hooked up to the Cobh water towers and precious little roads, no buses or anything.

And the muppets grant rezoning permission. :rolleyes:

And the little T shaped piece jutting out into the harbour, just below the bay (Cuskinny bay) is where the proposed Marina is to go, I think. Can anyone tell me why theres so much objection to it? As it stands, its a pit.
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby SirNorman » Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:40 am

Permit me to join your merry little band and comment on a few of the matters you have been discussing. On the issue of Ballymore and the attempted rezoning under the Midleton Electoral Area Local Area Plan, proposal was to re designate the road from Ballymore to Walterstown School as a 'village nucleus'. This area is probably one of the worst examples of ribbon developement you will find anywhere. A couple of kilometers of bungalows all with septic tanks. (The residents seem to see no relationship between their contaminated water supply and the proliferation of unmaintained septic tanks). Furthermore the majority are constructed on the ridge. Crazy idea driven by non farming farmers and a local auctioneer.
I submitted to the plan that a village nucleus already exists in Ballmore itself and that planning granted for the village should in future augment the generation of a village style settlement by generating a streetscape and in the process perhaps facilitate some affordable housing.(bet that went down well with some) .They had already granted permission for a bungalow at the "T" junction of the village, so that scuppers that idea I suppose
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby Praxiteles » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:18 am

SirNorman wrote:Permit me to join your merry little band and comment on a few of the matters you have been discussing. On the issue of Ballymore and the attempted rezoning under the Midleton Electoral Area Local Area Plan, proposal was to re designate the road from Ballymore to Walterstown School as a 'village nucleus'.

I submitted to the plan that a village nucleus already exists in Ballmore itself and that planning granted for the village should in future augment the generation of a village style settlement by generating a streetscape and in the process perhaps facilitate some affordable housing.(bet that went down well with some) .They had already granted permission for a bungalow at the "T" junction of the village, so that scuppers that idea I suppose


That was far too sensible with which to be able to come to terms for any local authority.
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby samuel j » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:28 am

SirNorman wrote:Permit me to join your merry little band and comment on a few of the matters you have been discussing. On the issue of Ballymore and the attempted rezoning under the Midleton Electoral Area Local Area Plan, proposal was to re designate the road from Ballymore to Walterstown School as a 'village nucleus'. This area is probably one of the worst examples of ribbon developement you will find anywhere. A couple of kilometers of bungalows all with septic tanks. (The residents seem to see no relationship between their contaminated water supply and the proliferation of unmaintained septic tanks). Furthermore the majority are constructed on the ridge. Crazy idea driven by non farming farmers and a local auctioneer.
I submitted to the plan that a village nucleus already exists in Ballmore itself and that planning granted for the village should in future augment the generation of a village style settlement by generating a streetscape and in the process perhaps facilitate some affordable housing.(bet that went down well with some) .They had already granted permission for a bungalow at the "T" junction of the village, so that scuppers that idea I suppose

Welcome Sir Norman.... 1st of many posts I hope.
Strange view by residents that no link, they all well sourced water supplies I would think...and would have though many good and bad tanks in area. Septic tank permission I believe have now got tighter (or at least according to two pals of mine that have recently built..costly I hear) but many houses have been built on that bally-walter stretch before recent times so would doubt if all have decent systems and/or correct perculation
with respect to neighnours wells.
You know any more about the 90+ houses mentioned in thread by and the helpfulness of a councillor...
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Re: Cork Harbour

Postby samuel j » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:37 am

The_Chris : Tee Pier - used by local fishermen and station for Cork Harbour Pilot launches. Their Port Ops building directly above it and you are right. Marina between it and upriver. I saw in one section of objection, this bit of strand was used for whale watching...I kid you not.
A few years a go 3 killer whales did enter Cork harbour. One subsequently died of natural causes and it sis believed the other two stayed with her until the end.....very civilised stuff.
They left and have not been seen since.... but to call this a beach for whale watching is a joke. Also claimed it would be a danger to navigation, again untrue, no one in the port of cork ever said it could be a danger. Beach was cleaned a bit by objector group when it suited them...wonder how long this will continue before it reverts to its more usual gathering spot for flotsam and jetsam ...of all descriptions

Theres plenty more fun stuff but at this stage its gone beyond a joke and is Cobha last last chance...

This is developers site : http://www.cobhmarina.ie/gallery.php
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