cork docklands

Re: cork docklands

Postby kite » Tue May 13, 2008 12:43 pm

My understanding of the contaminated land issue as it relates to the Cork Docklands is as follows;
Best practice in this case would require a 3meter skim to be removed and exported for de-contamination. This of course would be very expensive and could make many parts of the Docklands site uneconomic.
CCC are suggesting that a one meter skim be removed and “disposed” of, and backfilled with fresh soil but no one is quite sure what impact (if any) this would have environmentally, or in raising funds from financial intuitions to purchase units that would be built on land that may be classed as dangerous.

I would like to post photos of the Cork Docklands johnglas but I am unsure how to do so.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby who_me » Tue May 13, 2008 1:02 pm

bosco wrote:That works wonders for our city doesn't it? In the absence of having anything resembling adequate public transport in and out of the city centre, we build large business parks on the edge of the city and loads of apartments in the city centre. Instead of creating demand and justifying a decent public transport system to bring workers and shoppers from suburban centres of population into the city, we try to encourage people to live in city centre apartments and commute out to semi-rural business parks.



I think this is a bit wide of the mark.

A lot of people work & study in the city centre (a LOT), and if the docklands ever take off even more so; meaning there needs to be a lot of people living within walking distance of the city centre or people will be commuting in from Douglas/Rochestown/Passage/Glanmire into the city centre & docklands and adding greatly to the congestion. There desperately needs to be a significant (but balanced) residential element to the docklands.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Leesider » Tue May 13, 2008 8:31 pm

kite wrote:My understanding of the contaminated land issue as it relates to the Cork Docklands is as follows;
Best practice in this case would require a 3meter skim to be removed and exported for de-contamination. This of course would be very expensive and could make many parts of the Docklands site uneconomic.
CCC are suggesting that a one meter skim be removed and “disposed” of, and backfilled with fresh soil but no one is quite sure what impact (if any) this would have environmentally, or in raising funds from financial intuitions to purchase units that would be built on land that may be classed as dangerous.

I would like to post photos of the Cork Docklands johnglas but I am unsure how to do so.


Doesn't the a lot of the docklands have to be raised anyway due to the effects of future tidal flooding?? Maybe this 1m skimming would work if it doesn't have bad effects on the environment.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby kite » Tue May 13, 2008 9:17 pm

Leesider wrote:Doesn't the a lot of the docklands have to be raised anyway due to the effects of future tidal flooding?? Maybe this 1m skimming would work if it doesn't have bad effects on the environment.



The Docklands Local Area Plan states:

Chapter 7: ENVIRONMENTAL MANAGMENT
MATERIAL AMENDMENT MA17: FLOOD RISK
Amend the section of the plan relating to flood risk (7.26-7.28 /
ENV9) to take account of revised food policy for South Docks area:
Flood Risk
7.26 Flooding results from a combination of human activity and natural physical
conditions. There is mounting evidence that the global climate is changing as a result
of human activity, which will lead to an annual increase in sea level of between 4 -
6mm. Flood risk will therefore need to be considered at all stages of the land use
planning process and managed in an environmentally sensitive way.
7.27 A flexible approach is needed to take account of flood risk to ensure that
appropriate measures are taken wherever the need arises. When considering
development in flood risk areas regard should be had to both the “Precautionary
Principle” and “Sequential testing”. Those proposing developments in areas where
there is a flood risk should:
7.28 Provide an assessment of whether the proposed development is likely to be
affected by flooding and whether it will increase flood risk elsewhere and of the
measures proposed to deal with these effects and risks. Satisfy the planning authority
that any flood risk rising from the proposal will be successfully managed with the
minimum environmental effect, to ensure that the site can be developed and occupied
safely.
7.28A Guidance in relation to the flood risk management and protection measures
for the South Docks is outlined in the South Docks L.A.P. and Infrastructure Strategy.
A detailed study of flood risk in the Lee Catchment is also being undertaken by
consultants for the O.P.W., in conjunction with Cork City and Cork County Councils
(Lee Catchment Flood Risk Assesment and Management Study). This Study will give
the definitive guidance on best practice for the assessment and management of flood
risk in the Lee Catchment, including Docklands. The guidance contained in the SDLAP
shall be reviewed in the context of the final Lee CFRAM Study.
Amend Policy ENV 9 be addition of following sentence:
Policy ENV 9 Flood Risk
Development will not normally be permitted unless appropriate flood protection and
mitigation measures can be put in place to ensure that the site can be safely
developed and occupied and flood risk as a result of the development is not increased
elsewhere. The City Council will require that key flood protection infrastructure be
developed on a phased basis within the South Docks. Flood protection measures as
outlined in the Infrastructure Strategy for South Docks include the raising of ground
levels with perimeter protection of the site.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby who_me » Mon May 19, 2008 2:34 pm

Speaking of "contaminated land"....;)

Did anyone else hear that there was a panic earlier when developers at the Elysian received a quantity of topsoil bought from one of the army barracks (don't know which one), complete with an unexploded shell!

Was someone yanking my leg?
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Re: cork docklands

Postby igy » Mon May 19, 2008 3:36 pm

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Re: cork docklands

Postby murfee » Tue May 20, 2008 8:27 pm

wasn't a decision on gateway funding due today ?
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Re: cork docklands

Postby who_me » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:59 pm

From today's examiner - it appears a PR firm is being hired to publicise the Docklands generation. Given the size of the development, I wouldn't have thought "tens of thousands of euros" would exactly entice any big-name marketing firms!

03 July 2008

PR contract for docklands: Firm ‘chosen’

By Eoin English
CORK CITY COUNCIL is poised to award a lucrative contract to a PR firm to brand and market its multi-billion docklands regeneration project.


The council remained tightlipped last night on who has landed the contract or on how much it is worth.

The initial phase could be worth tens of thousands of euro to the successful public relations firm.

But the company could be working on the project, which will involve branding, marketing and advertising, for at least a decade as the council oversees the estimated €10 billion regeneration of the extensive docklands region as a new waterfront quarter.



The news emerged yesterday as the largest landowner of docklands real estate put the first phase of its ambitious €2bn development on public display in City Hall.

Origin Enterprises, a subsidiary of the IAWS milling group, owns 32 acres of docklands.

It is seeking planning permission initially for a two acre waterfront site on Kennedy Quay and Victoria Road.

The first phase of its Port Quarter project is valued at about €200 million.

It will have 165 large apartments, and 24,600sq m of offices, in buildings ranging from eight to 11 storeys tall, with basement parking, shops and a creche.

No building will be taller than IAWS’s existing grain silos — for example at the R&H Hall site — all of which are set for demolition.

The only building to be retained is the red-brick Odlums building, dating back to the 1890s, which will most likely be used for cultural purposes.

Origin describes Port Quarter as an 18 to 20-year plan and believes the first phase could be delivered in late 2010.

This planning application follows the lodging of plans by Howard Holdings in March for its €1bn Atlantic Quarter project further downstream in the docklands, near Páirc Uí Chaoimh.

Now that redevelopment plans are rolling in, City Hall wants to hire public relations experts to advise how it should brand and market its vision for docklands.

Up to 50 firms pitched for the contract and they were shortlisted down to five.

Representatives of each of the shortlisters made presentations to a panel last Friday and it is understood that a firm has been chosen.

But city manager Joe Gavin has to sign off on the contract first — a process that is expected to take several weeks.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Steady » Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:25 pm

Will the acid spill in the Docklands area today, and the evacuation of large sections of the area, the closure of Centre Park Road, Manahan's Road and the Marina, complicate matters in relation to recent planning applications in the Docklands, especially since the HSA have already advised against granting planning in one case due to presence of Seveso sites? If the entire road network in and out of the area can be closed by such an incident, and large-scale evacuations can arise, will this affect the planners' thoughts?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0703/breaking43.htm
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Pug » Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:13 am

theres still no lead from the city council on what they propose to do about the Seveso sites - they'll have to grab the issue by the horns sooner or later - probably later, when the PR firm is hired!
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Pug » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:28 am

dont know how true it is but someone at work tells me the govt have announced that there wont be funding for the docklands bridge until at least 2010 - joke - not really a surprise though given the lack of fund for infrastructure from Dublin for cork in general - last bus at 11.30 is such a joke
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Leesider » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:50 am

if that is true Cork politicans should hang their heads in shame!!! No point in blaming Dublin it is our politicans that are useless!!!!

No doubt they will just stay quiet like they did over the aiport! Martin won't be heard from for a while.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby lawyer » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:33 am

From what I saw on the paper, Ascon are looking for a licence to dredge 9000 tonnes of spoil from the river bed at the location of the proposed bridge..
Work is planned between mid August and mid September.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby cgcsb » Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:05 pm

Pug wrote:dont know how true it is but someone at work tells me the govt have announced that there wont be funding for the docklands bridge until at least 2010 - joke - not really a surprise though given the lack of fund for infrastructure from Dublin for cork in general - last bus at 11.30 is such a joke



The last bus in Dublin is also at 11:30, what's wrong with that? In fact some Dublin Bus routes have their last
service at 11! Cork is not hard done by in that department
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Pug » Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:57 pm

last bus at 11.30 is such a joke


apologies, i should have clarified, my point was meant to refer to no nightlinks in existence and poor public transport
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Re: cork docklands

Postby cgcsb » Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:49 pm

agreed, Cork does need a night link. However it is important to note that the night link in Dublin is a skeleton service and the buses are only outbound and some routes only have two services per night
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Leesider » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:32 am

well it was confirmed that there is no funding for the bridge until at least 2010. Now the only thing we can hope for is that they name the projects now that will get funding then so that the docklands is not left in limbo.

Still think the government should be looking at the bigger picture and see the substantial economic benefits this would bring.

Read an article in the examiner recently where the guy was very worried about how the government is run by teachers and solicitors.......while not suggesting there is anything wrong with these professions we need more business people to be involved to get a good over all picture. Michael O'Leary was suggested as one guy that should be enlisted by the government to give his point of view. Makes sense but can't see it happening!
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Pug » Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:57 am

cgcsb wrote:agreed, Cork does need a night link. However it is important to note that the night link in Dublin is a skeleton service and the buses are only outbound and some routes only have two services per night


its much more than a skeleton service to be honest, i lived up there and depended on it completely to get to Lucan after a night out - i'd be more than happy to start with 2 buses in cork say at 1am and 2am to all the major suburbs like douglas/carrigaline, wilton/bishopstown/ballincollig, glanmire and mayfield - you'd need more then for the bigger routes -
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Re: cork docklands

Postby green_jesus » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:38 am

"Bump" :)


I thought id awaken this thread...

So what's all this business of Port Of Cork objecting to the Port Quarter (R&H Hall) development? They said something like developing the docklands would compromise there activity's in the port. Are they just bitter about not getting the planning for Ringaskiddy?

Also I saw on the Howard Holdings website that they plan to develop those sorry looking warehouses on Albert quay turning them into 11,150 sq.m of high spec office / retail accommodation.
Anybody have any more information on this scheme? Will they bulldoze the lot or are they planning to use some of the stone work?




http://www.howardholdingsplc.com/index.php/development/project/albert-quay-cork/
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Re: cork docklands

Postby MrX » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:52 am

Leesider wrote:...

Read an article in the examiner recently where the guy was very worried about how the government is run by teachers and solicitors.......while not suggesting there is anything wrong with these professions we need more business people to be involved to get a good over all picture. Michael O'Leary was suggested as one guy that should be enlisted by the government to give his point of view. Makes sense but can't see it happening!


The problem is that people with big business backgrounds, as well as planning and architectural backgrounds are simply not entering Irish politics. Teachers enter quite simply because they have such short hours and long holidays that they can easily become councillors and then make a jump to being a TD. Schools even hold their jobs open for them while they're a sitting TD! Traditionally, (although this is rapidly decreasing) Farmers were also massively over-represented in Leinster House. Solicitors and barristers also have relatively large amounts of freedom to partake in political life compared to other professions as they're usually self-employed, or working in small partnerships. They also tend to have a better understanding of the political system than most as they are engaged in law.

Business people need to put their money where their mouth is and stand!! If Michael O'Leary wants to be involved in government he should stand for election. There's no point in standing on the sidelines and moaning. There's no reason why he, or anyone else should or could be appointed to Government without winning an election. It would be just a 'tad' undemocratic.

I also reckon that more architects and planners need to consider standing for council, for the senate or for the dail. There may be people on these boards who ought to be considering standing in the local elections next time around!!

Perhaps one way forward would be to make some kind of legal provision where by employers were obliged to allow someone to work part-time or job share if they were entering political life. It's very difficult to break into politics without a lot of free time on your hands. Although that is unlikely to ever happen as it would weaken the position of existing politicians...

We have quite an open and easily accessible political system, it's about time that people other than teachers, solicitors, farmers and the odd accountant used it!
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Angry Rebel » Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:42 am

TDs now make over €100k p.a., excluding expenses etc. Why in the hell would we make extra provision for them such as holding their jobs etc? Granted a Dail career can be short, if a TD cocks up, but so can a career in medicine if you cock that up. Every job has consequences, the whole point of political representation is that there are consequences to your actions to meet or fail your constituency expectations. The Irish system even goes so far as to make lump sum payments to TDs if they fail to be reelected! That's before we get started on the pension....

Granted, the situation is different for coucillors, but this topic started about those in government.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby MrX » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:40 pm

I know several TDs and I can assure you it's not a cake walk of a job. Yes, the money isn't bad but you are literally on the phone pretty much every waking hour answering constituency queries and have to be nice to every single caller, regardless of how big/small or sensible their query actually is. The work load is mind-blowing. And, before you say that a lot of it is just paying lip service to callers, the reality of our democratic system is that you're up against up to 4 other sitting TDs on a day-in, day-out basis. So, if you don't answer the phone, one of your counterparts will.

Your career could be high flying and go on for decades, or it could be a short lived stint on the back benches, particularly if you're in opposition.

You can cock up as a doctor, an architect, a sales person in Tesco and get fired but as an elected representative you do not have any tenure. You face the electorate every 5 years and there are absolutely no guarantees of keeping your seat. Your career could be over just like that and it's happened to plenty of good TDs too! It doesn't even take a cock-up, the electorate can be quite fickle.

The vast majority of TDs get into politics for all the right reasons, i.e. that they've a desire to actually do something for their communities. There are a few rotten apples, but the same could be said for any area of life. Unfortunately, they do tend to tarnish the whole world of politics.

The fact that someone has to risk their career / pause it to run a campaign which may or may not be successful and then their career could only last 5 years does mean that they are taking a huge risk. If you've a mortgage and kids, it's often an unacceptably high risk.

I just think that something could be done to make some kind of provision for people to participate in public life. E.g. an ability to take time off / take a career break, even an unpaid one. It would actually be highly beneficial for companies and sectors to get some of 'their people' into the political sphere too as it means that their views are represented. So, you're not talking about something that doesn't have rewards for companies willing to allow staff members time off to do something like that.

Even if a company could say, ok take 6 months of unpaid leave to run your campaign. If you don't make it, you can take up your job again. Not many employers would go that far. So, it rules out the possibility of ever running for the vast majority of us and biases the entire system in favour of those with time on their hands i.e. mostly teachers!

Breaking into politics usually means slogging it out as a councillor too, which to be fair, isn't exactly a very well paid job and often requires almost as much work as a TD puts in (certainly a back bencher).

I really do think that we need to be incentivising the RIGHT people to become more politically involved. As it stands you're getting teachers, academics, lawyers and people who've got politics in the family i.e. they already have the infrastructure behind them and know what is involved.

Incentivising people to get involved could include outreach and education programmes to show people how to go about becoming an elected representative. Encouraging people to actively participate in political life etc.

I don't think it's that unreasonable that a company or employer as part of their social responsibility should facilitate someone when they're basically going out there to serve their community and their country.

It's the kind of cynical attitude that seems to exist in Ireland (and elsewhere) when it comes to politics that leads to a situation where the entire system is full of people who know how to work the system, rather than those who are the best at the job.

If it were such an attractive career there'd be a lot more people putting themselves forward for election.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby darkman » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:54 pm

It would be more attractive of course if politicians and councillors in this country were not as corrupt as they are.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Pug » Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:25 pm

I take your point about some short term career break or something but if you are a minister / TD for years and your teaching job is still kept open, i think thats a bit much, but then where do you draw the line?

MrX wrote:The fact that someone has to risk their career / pause it to run a campaign which may or may not be successful and then their career could only last 5 years does mean that they are taking a huge risk. If you've a mortgage and kids, it's often an unacceptably high risk.


They choose to make the attempt though

MrX wrote:If it were such an attractive career there'd be a lot more people putting themselves forward for election. Breaking into politics usually means slogging it out as a councillor too, which to be fair, isn't exactly a very well paid job and often requires almost as much work as a TD puts in (certainly a back bencher).


Local council rules allow co opting as far as I know, i.e. if someone gets elected as TD or resigns, someone in the council can pick their brother or friend to be a councillor, thats hardly democratic and councillors have little or no power, it seems to me all they do is write strong letters to government departments and if you have a problem, they refer to you a department, theres no accountability at all

Look at the Lord Mayors salary of 100k or more, that the parties all have made a pact to swop the position between them so someone will get the dosh, thats hardly democracy and i do appreciate that councillors and TD's have to listen to all and sundry giving out to them but when councillors have take home pay of something like €86k (I think thats the usual annual figure from PJ Sheehan) then theres a reason why people are queueing up to get in

Councillors have very little power, but one of the ones they have, rezoning, is terrifying. Look at the new town proposed and voted for by councillors down by Innishannon against all the advice of the planners and county managers etc

I think bureacracy has an awful lot to answer for in this country
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Re: cork docklands

Postby who_me » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:59 pm

green_jesus wrote:Also I saw on the Howard Holdings website that they plan to develop those sorry looking warehouses on Albert quay turning them into 11,150 sq.m of high spec office / retail accommodation.
Anybody have any more information on this scheme? Will they bulldoze the lot or are they planning to use some of the stone work?

http://www.howardholdingsplc.com/index.php/development/project/albert-quay-cork/


Hopefully they'll retain the stone work, it'll add some 'texture' to otherwise bland glass 'n' cladding buildings. It will be interesting to see what goes up there, knowing how lovey-dovey Howard Holdings and OCP are, it'll be a 15 story monolith, just to block all views from the Elysian! :)

At the moment, those buildings are being used to house huge pumps, presumably for water extraction from the OCP site?
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