developments in cork

Re: Cork: Architecture & Development

Postby Ronan C » Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:42 am

Thanks a lot, should be a nice addition to Cork
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Re: Cork: Architecture & Development

Postby mickeydocs » Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:33 am

Question for Dowlingm

I've been offered a position in Mississauga... would you recommend Toronto and its environs as a good place for a young family looking to leave the strains (commuter and other) of Dublin behind?

thanks for any insights (btw, would you choose to live in Mississauga or in the metropolitan area?).
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The Marquee

Postby lexington » Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:18 am

:) I made a visit to The Marquee last night at the Munster Agricultural Showgrounds (yes, to see a sell-out Tommy Tiernan), and I have to say that its presence pushes the need only further that the city needs and could do most well from a permanent such event centre. The temporary nature of the facility ensured that air-conditioning and the solid service facilities were lacking (believe you me, air-conditioning was never so badly needed), but the venue provides a physical indication that such a centre could well be a success. Over 5000 persons packed the over-sized circus tent - but the atmosphere was very positive.

3 projects are currently ploughing ahead with their proposals for such an event centre. The Showgrounds, however, still, in my eyes seems the most ideal location long-run.

An application for Horgan's Quay is not too far away and I will bring you details of its contents before its lodgement please God.

(Marquee images later tonight).
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Paul Kenny's The Treasury Development

Postby lexington » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:36 pm

Image

Paul Kenny has submitted Significant Further Information on his plans to build new offices for the Revenue Commissioners along St. Patrick's Quay. The office development designed by Wilson Architecture would home approaximately 127,000sq ft of office space and 15,000sq ft of retail over 2 linked buildings. The revised plans will now consist of one building fronting St. Patrick's Quay between 4 and 6 storeys (as oppose to 4 and 5 storeys) with the 2nd building 4 to 6 storeys facing the Lower Glanmire Road, changed from 5 to 7 storeys. The double-deck basement car-park will now house 216 car spaces and 50 cycle spaces, instead of 235 spaces of car-parking originally submitted. It should be mentioned that the basic design (i.e. the curved quayside facade) will remain the same. A decision date is now set for the 8th August 2005.
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Frinailla's Victoria Cross Development

Postby lexington » Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:10 pm

You will remember earlier (back in the LADSOCL thread) a post was issued noting Frinailla had entered planning for a 25-unit residential development over commercial facility and basement car-parking. The development, planned for the former Plumbing Utilities Store bordering Ashbrook apartment complex and Top Car Motor Dealership, was designed by Geraldine McNamara of Richard Rainey & Associates and ranges in height between 6 and 7-storeys. Apartments will range in size between 55m sq for one-bedroom units, 90m sq for 2-bedroom units and a 190m sq duplex penthouse with 4-bedrooms (these scale apartments have been actively encouraged by CCC and its nice to see more of these units come in to circulation). Each apartment will have 2 basement parking spaces and basement storage facilities.

ImageImage

Image

In my opinion, a generally quality project - its seems a difficult site to work with, but I do think that this project will compliment the area in the long-run given prospective and current proposals shaping up nearby. The Utilities Store is currently being used by Heberger Construction/Aras Developments as their 'Site Office' for the Victoria Station student residence development directly across the road. This project will rise to 5 storeys.
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Re: Cork: Architecture & Development

Postby Radioactiveman » Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:42 pm

A decision is due this Wednesday on Ellesmere Properties Ltd. 's seven storey Hotel, retail unit, basement carpark and Coffee shop at Lavitts Quay and Half Moon Street (Lex has previously posted images of same).
If i remember correctly, the general opinion on this site was that the architectural merit of the building fell far short of that required for this prestigous location adjacent to Cork Opera House.
Anybody got any ideas how CCC are leaning with this one? Further info. was submitted in mid-June.
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No.16 Lavitts Quay

Postby lexington » Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:50 am

Radioactiveman wrote:A decision is due this Wednesday on Ellesmere Properties Ltd. 's seven storey Hotel, retail unit, basement carpark and Coffee shop at Lavitts Quay and Half Moon Street (Lex has previously posted images of same).
If i remember correctly, the general opinion on this site was that the architectural merit of the building fell far short of that required for this prestigous location adjacent to Cork Opera House.
Anybody got any ideas how CCC are leaning with this one? Further info. was submitted in mid-June.


Indeed the decision is due tomorrow. Only one objection was submitted to the Significant Further Information submitted - which effectively redesigned the hotel building, with a minor height reduction (over 1m), room numbers reduction (125 to 114) and facade alterations. It has to be said that the original propopsal was not up to much - the new design is an improvement somewhat. The architect is Geoff Butler of Reddy O'Riordan Staehli Architects and developers are Howard Holdings. An image is posted below and I will have some information on its decision tomorrow evening.

Image

Though the revised design incorporates a number of improvements, including better use of the site shape and better incorporation and relation of the new project to No.16 Lavitts Quay (a PS) - I wonder if this is really the best design that RORSA could have come up with for the 20m euro project which is set to house the Comfort Inn brand. Perhaps its just me - maybe its a sort of New York-esque 'Art Deco' style I'm just not use to :confused: . Its not a bad project, the usage is most welcome, but it just doesn't seem up to scratch in comparison to the likes of 21 Lavitts Quay, recently complete next-door to the west. However, the variety of styles may indeed enhance the quayside over-all in the future. It's just that in such a delicate location, a new development should first and foremost add to an area - this building, I believe, adds nothing.
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Re: Frinailla's Victoria Cross Development

Postby ewankennedy » Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:13 am

lexington wrote:You will remember earlier (back in the LADSOCL thread) a post was issued noting Frinailla had entered planning for a 25-unit residential development over commercial facility and basement car-parking. The development, planned for the former Plumbing Utilities Store bordering Ashbrook apartment complex and Top Car Motor Dealership, was designed by Geraldine McNamara of Richard Rainey & Associates and ranges in height between 6 and 7-storeys. Apartments will range in size between 55m sq for one-bedroom units, 90m sq for 2-bedroom units and a 190m sq duplex penthouse with 4-bedrooms (these scale apartments have been actively encouraged by CCC and its nice to see more of these units come in to circulation). Each apartment will have 2 basement parking spaces and basement storage facilities.

ImageImage

Image

In my opinion, a generally quality project - its seems a difficult site to work with, but I do think that this project will compliment the area in the long-run given prospective and current proposals shaping up nearby. The Utilities Store is currently being used by Heberger Construction/Aras Developments as their 'Site Office' for the Victoria Station student residence development directly across the road. This project will rise to 5 storeys.


I agree lexington that it isnt a bad project and the site is a difficult one but i think it should be stated that it is difficult for more than one reason. For a start, its size means that any development on it would have to have some height to be viable. Other than that the nature of surrounding buildings like Farranlea hall and Victoria station across the Wilton road are residential and have been designed with the usual residential features like balconies, roof gardens etc. Frinillas other project at Dennehys cross up the road is gonna be residential too and any redevelopment of the Cork farm centre will be of a similar height as this project in question. The design has to consider all these elements - it has to be befitting of the area, allow viablity, provide for residential aspects and be relatively 'pretty' while its at it. While i dont think its an offence or ugly design (I like the glass commercial unit (is a commercial unit???) to the front of the site), I dont think its anything particularly spectacular either. Its colouration use of finishings seems varied, neutral colors that smile at, rather than attack the senses, so its not offending anyone. I especially like the penthouse element. The one problem i see staring me in the face however is that 4 storeys wall to the north of the site. It seems unnecessarily bland despite the color. I'm sure the architects had their reasons, but, even a window or 2 to break the repetitiveness up a little? Maybe Top car are looking to redevelop their site that we dont know about. As far as I know windows in the Frinilla projects wall wouldnt be overlooking anything other than a workshop. The L shape of the development gives a bit of variety to the design which otherwise I could just envision walking up along the road and being greet by nothing other than a 4 storey wall! If the penthouse can have windows at this side of the building, can the rest of the north elevation not have them either???
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Lavitts Quay

Postby Devin » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:46 am

lexington wrote:Image

That thing is absolutely woeful!! It is bland, overscaled and makes monkeys of the remaining older buildings on the quayfront. I suppose it’s following the precedent of the oversized lump that’s already built on Lavitt’s Quay? This is the problem – once one mistake occurs it’s easier for more to be made…

For those who don’t know Cork, this is not in a remote area where there are just scraps of historic buildings left and you could go taller]right in the centre[/I], where there is an established scale.

The 3-storey, 4-bay building on the quayfront is a Protected Structure, right? Well under the Planning & Dev Act 2000 (Part IV), the setting of a P. S. is protected as well as the structure itself. So the impact of new development proposals on the integrity of a P. S. has to be taken into account. You can’t just shove a load of rubbish up behind a P. S. once the building itself has been secured.

This image is misleading anyway. A wider image is needed that properly shows the proposal in its location, with the Quays & Emmet Place etc.
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Re: Cork: Architecture & Development

Postby pier39 » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:22 am

ive tried to like this building on so many levels and though it is a vast improvement on the original id be lying to myself if i said i liked it. for such a respected firm rorsa could have done so much better. a shame really.
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Re: Cork: Architecture & Development

Postby mickeydocs » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:45 am

the architect needs to be sent back to college
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Re: Frinailla's Victoria Cross Development

Postby lisam » Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:33 pm

ewankennedy wrote: Maybe Top car are looking to redevelop their site that we dont know about. As far as I know windows in the Frinilla projects wall wouldnt be overlooking anything other than a workshop. The L shape of the development gives a bit of variety to the design which otherwise I could just envision walking up along the road and being greet by nothing other than a 4 storey wall! If the penthouse can have windows at this side of the building, can the rest of the north elevation not have them either???



I have heard from a good source that Top Car are planning to relocate.
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Postby lexington » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:28 pm

lisam wrote:I have heard from a good source that Top Car are planning to relocate.


It was only March 1st this year (2005) that Top Car received permission to vertically extend their showroom, with Colman Cotter Consulting Engineers working on the project. I had heard they were looking at one of the Motor Mall locations (at either EastGate or John Cleary Developments' project at Mahon Point) but nothing in stone. The Victoria Cross site would certainly be a highly valuable land deal for them should they decide to relocate. No doubt a number of offers would leap at the opportunity.
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Also I am awaiting details on Howard Holdings' plans for Lavitts Quay, as posted above - Michael Lynch is the planner. It will be most interesting to see how this one fairs - the design is controversial to say the least. But not controversial good in my books. :(
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Re: Cork: Architecture & Development

Postby rodger » Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:24 pm

It is hard to judge the quality of the building from the image shown,its quite distorted or maybe its my cataracts again.

I will reserve my opinion (for what its worth) pending review of the file and indeed clear images.
Nice work on the Victoria cross images Lexington,I agree with you on the design.

That blank gable is very bland I would think its to allow for the future development of Top Car ,whom I understand are in negotiations with Cleary Doyle in Mahon for a new car showroom.

Any way what the f*** am I doing on this thing I should be out topping up on the suntan.
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Re: Frinailla's Victoria Cross Development

Postby Too many forms! » Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:39 pm

lexington wrote:......seems a difficult site to work with, but I do think that this project will compliment the area in the long-run given prospective and current proposals shaping up nearby. The Utilities Store is currently being used by Heberger Construction/Aras Developments as their 'Site Office' for the Victoria Station student residence development directly across the road. This project will rise to 5 storeys.


Sorry Lexington, it was this project I was talking about....
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No. 16 Lavitts Quay

Postby lexington » Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:22 pm

Just for your own interest - here are a selection of images on the various projects proposed for the 16 Lavitts Quay site over the years. All designed by RORSA.

Image Image
The original proposal of new Irish Examiner/Evening Echo HQ - applied for back in late 2001.

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After the land swap deal with Howard Holdings (under the SPV Ellesmere Properties) the developers retained RORSA and designed this 7-storey 125-bedroom hotel for the Comfort Inn brand.

ImageImage
CCC Planning Dept. sought Significant Further Information on the project following reservations concerning the projects design, layout and height. In June, RORSA submitted revised plans which featured a reduction in height, bedroom numbers, better site utilisation, revised basement features and revised aesthetics.

The decision is due tomorrow. I had expected news tonight, but unfortunately it will have to wait until tomorrow morning.

Sincere apologises related to the scan qualities.
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Re: Cork: Architecture & Development

Postby Devin » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:45 am

Are you saying that because these equally terrible proposals were made earlier on for the Lavitt’s Quay area, that the current situation – with an existing overscaled building on the quayfront and an overscaled proposal behind the quayfront – is somehow justified?? - That is complete nonsense.

At the end of the day, the only thing that should be considered is the proper planning and development of the area, and in no way could any of these proposals or the existing building at 21 Lavitt’s Quay be construed to be proper planning and development.

For those who don't know Cork & are presuming that Lavitt's Quay is in an outer area where bland montrosities and discontinuity of scale might happen, the arrow on the map shows where it is; right in the central core with a dense fabric of older buildings all around and the incredibly historic Paul Street area just behind:

Image




And the existing yoke – euphemistically named "No. 21 Lavitt’s Quay" .…….serious, serious integration problem………:

Image
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Re: Cork: Architecture & Development

Postby yorktown » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:46 pm

That hotel's been granted by the Council.....I think that they have changed the elevation by droping a couple of units......as for the integration of No 16, I don't think O'Callaghans wanted to keep that, I think that they were encouraged to do so by the Council. Personally I think it allows for a beter architectural statement (not saying that Lavitts Quay is award stuff) if some of those older buildings are demolished; I accept that there is a balance to be struck, I just think that sometimes older buildings irrespective of merit / condition / potential reuse are seen as being important. I mean, just have a look at the recent NIAH for Cork, some classic stuff in there but there is also somerelatively recent (1950's) building that personally I wouldn't look twice at (from a preservation viewpoint - record yes, preserve no).

Anyway, I think the problem with Lavitt's Quay is the Opera House, anything else is an improvement......
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Howard Holdings granted permission for Comfort Inn development at No.16 Lavitts Quay

Postby lexington » Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:01 pm

:cool: Howard Holdings (Ellesmere Properties) have been greenlit by CCC to develop the former TCH lands at Lavitts Quay to the west and rear of No.16 Lavitts Quay. The protected structure at No.16 (which still possesses a run-down but remarkably intricate interior detail) will be integrated into the new development with ground-floor cafe usage and upper floor office usage. The revised design for the 7-storey hotel proposed 114 bedrooms (as oppose to the 125 in the original submission), however some of these units have since be conditioned. Although Comfort Inn stated that 114 represented the minimum number of rooms necessary to allow hotel viability, it yet remains to be seen whether they will settle for the conditions or seek appeal. The hotel will also allow for retail space and a basement parking facility. The development will provide a degree of continuity to the quayside, along with 21 Lavitts Quay and a redeveloped Cork Opera House (in the works). R. Arthur's corner premises on Half Moon Street and Lavitts Quay, may be subject to sale in the coming months (as rumours have it). More details later.
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Devin - if you read my earlier posts, I think you should be able to determine my feelings on the design of this development. The only reasons I posted the above images of the various developments proposed for this site was to allow for those interested to note the other options that had existed, as a matter of record. I don't believe I express one opinion over the other on that post - rather just a summary of the alterations made. Howard Holdings have produced better material than this before and so have RORSA and I really think much more could have been achieved.

- also just as a matter of clarity, so that no confusion is created between the subject buildings, OCP's HQ building is 21 Lavitts Quay, with its former HQ facade incorporated into the new building. No.16 Lavitts Quay is the PS which is part and to be integrated into the Howard Holdings development. Thanks for the image Devin, it gives another interesting perspective on the site as is and its relationship to 21. However, also consider the quayside prior to 21's development - if you have any comparitive images of that it may be interesting to assess. Also, 21 should not be viewed as a stand-alone project, but rather as part of a quayside masterplan which includes the Opera House, No.16 and the Coal Quay buildings to the west. Thats not a justification or anything, but rather an alternative perspective. :)
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Re: Cork: Architecture & Development

Postby d_d_dallas » Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:46 pm

Devin,
from your image, yes the OCP development looks monstrous, yet the Opera House is just out of sight to the left which puts the quayside in perspective. Also there is a hideous multistory carpark just behind the OCP development which was quite visible prior to this construction. This quayside along with Patricks Qy and Merchants Qy can accommodate a slightly larger massing than the older structures provide. That said they should fit in. I disapprove of the impact of the OCP building when viewed from Academy St where it's overbearing nature becomes quite apparent.
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Oyster Developments Office Development at Deane Street

Postby lexington » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:11 pm

:cool: You may remember sometime ago I noted that Killarney-based Oyster Developments were pushing further into the Cork market, and that they were in preplanning for another large-scale development. Well, again using Sabine Wittman's Dungarvan-based The e-Project Architects, Oyster Developments look set to lodge an application for a 7-storey office development along Deane Street, directly across the road from the landmark 9-storey office development in planning by DAT Partnerships, and designed by Coughlan de Keyser. The site borders the rear of the newly refurbished Bus Station at Anderson's Quay, and adjoins No.8 Parnell Place, a protected structure.

The office development will stem to a height equal to nearby No.6 Lapps Quay, but will not be higher than CentrePoint, the DAT Partnerships building.

It is building will house office space over retail facilities. I will have images soon (unfortunately I didn't receive them sooner, but I think that's on account of my opinions expressed regarding The e-Project's design for the Capitol Cineplex redevelopment - oops! :rolleyes: - by way of interest, the Further Information requested on the Capitol redevelopment is expected to be lodged within the next month).

Below are some site images, and an image of the DAT Partnerships building across the road from the Oyster Developments proposal. I have not yet seen the application design for the Oyster project, but I should hope, at the very very least, it is of or above the standards set by CentrePoint and other nearby projects.

ImageImage
No.8 Parnell Place - I have some concerns at how the development will dominate this important protected structure, but I will wait until I see the final design, who knows, I may be surprised.

ImageImage
1st Image shows perspective from Bus Station - looking West to East toward City Quarter (seen in background) 2nd Image - shows relationship of the site (right) to No.6 Lapps Quay in background, with CentrePoint (9-storey DAT Partnerships building) site seen to the left (with billboards).

The application will request permission to demolish the structures to the rear of No.8 Parnell Place, among which includes a pleasant brick former-bakery chimney. Although I welcome the site's redevelopment, the design will have to be something special to add rather than detract from this sensitive site. We'll wait and see.

Image
The innovative CentrePoint, 9-storey office development by DAT Partnerships. To give you some perspective, this image is shows the western elevation, with No.6 Lapps Quay to the left (south), the Bus Station to the right (north) and Oyster Developments proposal to the west (behind the CentrePoint building). It will be important for the Oyster proposal not to detract from this new building either.
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Re: Cork: Architecture & Development

Postby who_me » Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:29 pm

I was a bit wary of No 21 Lavitt's Quay, but seeing it now complete, it's one of my favourite new developments in Cork. That entire quayside has looked dreadful for decades - with the nearby Opera House one of the worst of a bad lot. Any redevelopment of the area would be welcome in my book, and No. 21 is one of the best in Cork.

As for the greater height, bring it on. If it leads to other buildings nearby of a similar height, is that a bad thing? Would buildings such as the Roches Stores, Brown Thomas buildings etc. ever have been built if we had the same attitude towards height then as we do now?

And if the height differs, is that a problem either? I think (provided new developments are top-notch) a contrast in heights between new and old side-by-side can be quite striking. To be honest, I think much of Dublin and Limerick's riverside developments have been quite dull, with endless adjoining buildings of the same or similar height.

Having said all that, I think the proposals for No. 16 Lavitt's Quay are very poor; being big is ok, but being big and bland isn't. IMO.
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Re: Cork: Architecture & Development

Postby Devin » Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:43 pm

who_me wrote:And if the height differs, is that a problem either? I think a contrast in heights between new and old side-by-side can be quite striking.
Provided they can integrate and co-exist happily.......which is not the case on Lavitt's Quay in my opinion.
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Re: Cork: Architecture & Development

Postby pier39 » Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:41 pm

ill probably be a lone voice here but i actually like 21 lavitts qy. its impact to the rear a far less significant that the impact the new howard holdings hotel will have. the nice thing about paul street and its tributary lanes is that the seem to be pleasantly isolated in their own timewarped microcosm and i think thats part of their appeal.

it is a pity howard didnt just move onto a different practice, not that ive anything against rorsa but clearly effort was lacking from the no16 design. imagination could have immensely enhanced this site and quayside. i suppose it was a matter of taking advantage of rorsa site knowledge and getting an application in there fast. i fear this building will be another one of those designs people will throw their eyes to heaven each time they pass it in coming years. i dont think 21 lavitts qy beckons the same. its actually quite a clever well finished building and seems to embrace a variety of scales, curvatures and materials which given a bit of variety to what could quite easily have been another bland office building. paddy cashman and clan did a good job. the blandness of the elevations at no16, which tries to embrace a seemingly 1930s-esque deco style using those odd windows, is disappointing. at the very least, greater care to elevational treatements and their vertices could have been afforded with very little cost differentials. pity. but then again maybe we'll all be fooled on its completion and itll surprise us all.

i personally am aware of proposed designs for phase 3 of the opera house redevelopment with a private developer on board and in fairness, the plans are showing promise and imagination. hopefully the entire quay front will allow for some powerful statements come the next few years. also i hear a private developer is chatting with joe gavin et al about kyrls quay - ooo!
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Re: Cork: Architecture & Development

Postby yorktown » Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:24 am

I have to agree with you, I think its good as well but perhaps a bit to busy in places. Interesting thing for that area along the Quay is what happens to the William Clarke Building (I think thats what the red brick yoke adjacent to the entrance to the Paul Street Car Park is called).

As for the opera house, I know that Murray O'Laoire did a fair enough job with the front of the building but I always fear that trying to fix what was a bad looking building is a bit like putting lipstick on a pig.....


pier39 wrote:ill probably be a lone voice here but i actually like 21 lavitts qy. its impact to the rear a far less significant that the impact the new howard holdings hotel will have. the nice thing about paul street and its tributary lanes is that the seem to be pleasantly isolated in their own timewarped microcosm and i think thats part of their appeal.

it is a pity howard didnt just move onto a different practice, not that ive anything against rorsa but clearly effort was lacking from the no16 design. imagination could have immensely enhanced this site and quayside. i suppose it was a matter of taking advantage of rorsa site knowledge and getting an application in there fast. i fear this building will be another one of those designs people will throw their eyes to heaven each time they pass it in coming years. i dont think 21 lavitts qy beckons the same. its actually quite a clever well finished building and seems to embrace a variety of scales, curvatures and materials which given a bit of variety to what could quite easily have been another bland office building. paddy cashman and clan did a good job. the blandness of the elevations at no16, which tries to embrace a seemingly 1930s-esque deco style using those odd windows, is disappointing. at the very least, greater care to elevational treatements and their vertices could have been afforded with very little cost differentials. pity. but then again maybe we'll all be fooled on its completion and itll surprise us all.

i personally am aware of proposed designs for phase 3 of the opera house redevelopment with a private developer on board and in fairness, the plans are showing promise and imagination. hopefully the entire quay front will allow for some powerful statements come the next few years. also i hear a private developer is chatting with joe gavin et al about kyrls quay - ooo!
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