Interconnector aka DART underground

Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby weehamster » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:54 pm

I getting tired of this. :mad:

Can someone, pretty please, with sugar on top, explain to me and to everyone else, what in the name of sanity does that last post have anything got to do with the Interconnector? :mad:

Sorry Mods, but I think its time to start doing your jobs. I think ye are getting very lazy of late. Things like this where a post has nothing to do with the topic has to be removed and the poster has to be warned.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby missarchi » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:12 pm

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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby ihateawake » Sun Jun 14, 2009 7:53 pm

Ha. Ahh, missarchi, appreciate the link, even if your posts are impossible to decipher :p
Weehamster, I believe darts will use the tunnel. There is your connection.

Imposing dimension. Sandwich 228, Incongruous?
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby cgcsb » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:14 pm

http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/dart_underground.asp

have yall seen this Dart underground video?
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby DjangoD » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:04 pm

From Saturday's Irish Times...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2009/0704/1224250018875.html

Follow this train of thought

FRANK McDONALD Environment Editor

A quarter of a century after the inauguration of the Dart, the Government is still trying to devise a public-transport solution for the capital, and the next stage could take the Dart underground

It was described in an Irish Times headline as “CIÉ’s new weapon to confound the begrudgers”. And in truth, the Dart did. On the Sunday after it started running between Howth and Bray in July 1984, more people travelled on the new electric trains than on any day since the railway line opened in 1834. There was something symmetrical about the Dart being inaugurated in the year of the 150th anniversary of Ireland’s first railway, the Dublin to Kingstown (Dún Laoghaire) line. And despite criticisms that it only served the “gold coast” around Dublin Bay, it gave the city its first whiff of continental Europe.

For months, Dubliners had been stopped in their tracks by the sight of brand-new, German-built electric trains gliding up and down the line on test runs. They were so different to the old diesel engines, which hauled probably the most obsolete rolling stock on wheels in this part of the world. That the new trains were electric was entirely due to Des O’Malley, then minister for industry and energy, who recognised the importance of not relying so much on imported oil; had it been left to his cabinet colleague, Prof Martin O’Donoghue, all Dublin would have got was a cheap and cheerful set of new diesel trains.

The Dart brand-name was chosen after sifting through numerous alternatives (such as “Bayline”). As Cartan Finegan, then marketing director of CIÉ, said at the time: “Finally, we settled for Dart because it seemed to say everything.” Dart is an acronym for Dublin Area Rapid Transit, which implied that electrifying the Howth-Bray line was merely the first phase of a much more ambitious plan to turn it into a network, with lines serving Tallaght and Blanchardstown via an underground link in the city centre. But that never happened.

When work on the electrification project started in 1980, David Waters, the engineer in charge, took personal responsibility for everything – he never bulldozed the project through, and instead negotiated with residents’ associations and other interest groups on issues such as rebuilding bridges.

There was some controversy about the cost of this EU-funded project, which worked out at £113 million (€143.5 million). Economists such as Seán Barrett of Trinity College thought it was wildly extravagant; like Martin O’Donoghue, they would have preferred to see a simple upgrade of services on the existing line. The most shocking thing was that the Department of Finance purloined £27 million (€34 million) in EU funding for the Dart, leaving CIÉ to borrow money to make up the difference. This saddled the company with repaying both capital and interest on a debt that should never have arisen, and vastly inflated the cost.

Even before the new service was inaugurated on July 24th, 1984, the price of houses along the line was going up; had CIÉ been able to “recapture” some of these gains, it could have repaid the capital outlay over time. The Dart also facilitated major commercial development, contributing to an office-building boom in Blackrock, for example. Land located near the line shot up in value, even in the bleak 1980s. It took a long time before CIÉ cashed in on this upward trend by promoting a major office scheme at Connolly Station, for example.

The company’s plans for a new transportation centre in the middle of town ran into trouble. Since 1976, CIÉ had been acquiring property on both sides of the River Liffey for this mammoth project, which would have incorporated an underground train and bus station topped by an array of office blocks, hotels and shopping malls. An Taisce was first into the breach, calling in January 1986 for a “complete reassessment” of this scheme on the basis that it would destroy the Temple Bar area. Ironically, the emerging “left bank” culture of the area had been unwittingly encouraged by CIÉ’s policy of renting out its buildings on short-term leases.

Liam Skelly, a firebrand Fine Gael TD for Dublin West, was having none of it, however. In late 1986, he claimed to have lined up a Canadian company to develop the proposed transportation centre. But the “Skelly Plan” bit the dust and Temple Bar was later designated as Dublin’s “cultural quarter”.

The plan to extend the Dart to other parts of the city was scuppered in October 1987 by the then Fianna Fáil minority government, led by Charles J Haughey. Not only did it rule out investment in anything other than buses and “diesel-based options” for rail, it also abolished the Dublin Transport Authority, which had been set up just six months earlier.

Eventually, as a result of the Dublin Transportation Initiative in the early 1990s, we were offered the Luas – although the city became the first in the world to build two free-standing light-rail lines. This was the outcome of a cowardly decision in May 1998 by ministers who couldn’t get their heads around the Luas running up and down Dawson Street.

When the Dart service started in 1984, a fleet of 80 carriages carried about 35,000 passengers per day. Government parsimony meant that not a single extra carriage was added during the next 16 years, even though passenger numbers were climbing to 80,000 per day. As a result, overcrowding during peak periods became unbearable.

Since 2001, major improvements have been made. The Dart line was extended to serve both Malahide and Greystones, new rolling stock was bought, real-time passenger information screen have been installed in all stations, platforms have been lengthened to cater for eight-carriage trains, and new stations were opened at Portmarnock and Grand Canal Dock.

Maintenance is poor, however. Dún Laoghaire station is grungy and confusing, despite its new look. Station nameplates are flimsy, their colour scheme a residue of Iarnród Éireann’s orange period; it’s a long way from the original “total design concept”.

The most serious problem is capacity. Due to constraints in and around Connolly Station, only 12 trains per hour can be accommodated on the Loop Line – too few to cater for the 90,000 passengers a day using the Dart and thousands of others on diesel trains.

Now, two decades after being ruled out, a Dart underground line is back on the agenda. This would connect Heuston Station to the Docklands, via Christchurch, St Stephen’s Green and Pearse Station, linking up with both the Tallaght and Sandyford Luas lines as well as the existing Dart line, to give Dublin a rail network.

Last December, the Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey described the proposed rail tunnel as the “most critical piece” of public-transport infrastructure in the State, and pledged that it would proceed, notwithstanding the Government’s yawning budget deficit. The estimate for the “Dart Underground” is €2 billion – considerably less than the still-secret cost of Metro North, which would provide a single, 18km Luas line from Swords to St Stephen’s Green. Given that the CIÉ plan would integrate existing suburban rail services, it seems better suited to serve Dublin’s sprawl than the metro.

What’s not included in the €2 billion estimate, however, is the cost of electrifying lines to Kildare, Maynooth and Drogheda so that trains could use the tunnel; clearly, diesel engines could not be allowed through because of the fumes they emit. The question remains of whether a cash-starved Government will have the stomach to go ahead with this.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby missarchi » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:33 pm

The underground hub is still possible!
It will be interesting if they wait until a decision on metro north before lodging...
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby marmajam » Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:22 pm

doubt 'they' have much of an eye on the MN application, which wil get PP anyway even if delayed until the 1st quarter 2110.
believe 'they' expect to lodge the IC application 'later this year'
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby PVC King » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:44 pm

DjangoD wrote:From Saturday's Irish Times...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2009/0704/1224250018875.html

Follow this train of thought

FRANK McDONALD Environment Editor

A quarter of a century after the inauguration of the Dart, the Government is still trying to devise a public-transport solution for the capital, and the next stage could take the Dart underground

It was described in an Irish Times headline as “CIÉ’s new weapon to confound the begrudgers”. And in truth, the Dart did. On the Sunday after it started running between Howth and Bray in July 1984, more people travelled on the new electric trains than on any day since the railway line opened in 1834. There was something symmetrical about the Dart being inaugurated in the year of the 150th anniversary of Ireland’s first railway, the Dublin to Kingstown (Dún Laoghaire) line. And despite criticisms that it only served the “gold coast” around Dublin Bay, it gave the city its first whiff of continental Europe.

For months, Dubliners had been stopped in their tracks by the sight of brand-new, German-built electric trains gliding up and down the line on test runs. They were so different to the old diesel engines, which hauled probably the most obsolete rolling stock on wheels in this part of the world. That the new trains were electric was entirely due to Des O’Malley, then minister for industry and energy, who recognised the importance of not relying so much on imported oil; had it been left to his cabinet colleague, Prof Martin O’Donoghue, all Dublin would have got was a cheap and cheerful set of new diesel trains.

The Dart brand-name was chosen after sifting through numerous alternatives (such as “Bayline”). As Cartan Finegan, then marketing director of CIÉ, said at the time: “Finally, we settled for Dart because it seemed to say everything.” Dart is an acronym for Dublin Area Rapid Transit, which implied that electrifying the Howth-Bray line was merely the first phase of a much more ambitious plan to turn it into a network, with lines serving Tallaght and Blanchardstown via an underground link in the city centre. But that never happened.

When work on the electrification project started in 1980, David Waters, the engineer in charge, took personal responsibility for everything – he never bulldozed the project through, and instead negotiated with residents’ associations and other interest groups on issues such as rebuilding bridges.

There was some controversy about the cost of this EU-funded project, which worked out at £113 million (€143.5 million). Economists such as Seán Barrett of Trinity College thought it was wildly extravagant; like Martin O’Donoghue, they would have preferred to see a simple upgrade of services on the existing line. The most shocking thing was that the Department of Finance purloined £27 million (€34 million) in EU funding for the Dart, leaving CIÉ to borrow money to make up the difference. This saddled the company with repaying both capital and interest on a debt that should never have arisen, and vastly inflated the cost.

Even before the new service was inaugurated on July 24th, 1984, the price of houses along the line was going up; had CIÉ been able to “recapture” some of these gains, it could have repaid the capital outlay over time. The Dart also facilitated major commercial development, contributing to an office-building boom in Blackrock, for example. Land located near the line shot up in value, even in the bleak 1980s. It took a long time before CIÉ cashed in on this upward trend by promoting a major office scheme at Connolly Station, for example.

The company’s plans for a new transportation centre in the middle of town ran into trouble. Since 1976, CIÉ had been acquiring property on both sides of the River Liffey for this mammoth project, which would have incorporated an underground train and bus station topped by an array of office blocks, hotels and shopping malls. An Taisce was first into the breach, calling in January 1986 for a “complete reassessment” of this scheme on the basis that it would destroy the Temple Bar area. Ironically, the emerging “left bank” culture of the area had been unwittingly encouraged by CIÉ’s policy of renting out its buildings on short-term leases.

Liam Skelly, a firebrand Fine Gael TD for Dublin West, was having none of it, however. In late 1986, he claimed to have lined up a Canadian company to develop the proposed transportation centre. But the “Skelly Plan” bit the dust and Temple Bar was later designated as Dublin’s “cultural quarter”.

The plan to extend the Dart to other parts of the city was scuppered in October 1987 by the then Fianna Fáil minority government, led by Charles J Haughey. Not only did it rule out investment in anything other than buses and “diesel-based options” for rail, it also abolished the Dublin Transport Authority, which had been set up just six months earlier.

Eventually, as a result of the Dublin Transportation Initiative in the early 1990s, we were offered the Luas – although the city became the first in the world to build two free-standing light-rail lines. This was the outcome of a cowardly decision in May 1998 by ministers who couldn’t get their heads around the Luas running up and down Dawson Street.

When the Dart service started in 1984, a fleet of 80 carriages carried about 35,000 passengers per day. Government parsimony meant that not a single extra carriage was added during the next 16 years, even though passenger numbers were climbing to 80,000 per day. As a result, overcrowding during peak periods became unbearable.

Since 2001, major improvements have been made. The Dart line was extended to serve both Malahide and Greystones, new rolling stock was bought, real-time passenger information screen have been installed in all stations, platforms have been lengthened to cater for eight-carriage trains, and new stations were opened at Portmarnock and Grand Canal Dock.

Maintenance is poor, however. Dún Laoghaire station is grungy and confusing, despite its new look. Station nameplates are flimsy, their colour scheme a residue of Iarnród Éireann’s orange period; it’s a long way from the original “total design concept”.

The most serious problem is capacity. Due to constraints in and around Connolly Station, only 12 trains per hour can be accommodated on the Loop Line – too few to cater for the 90,000 passengers a day using the Dart and thousands of others on diesel trains.

Now, two decades after being ruled out, a Dart underground line is back on the agenda. This would connect Heuston Station to the Docklands, via Christchurch, St Stephen’s Green and Pearse Station, linking up with both the Tallaght and Sandyford Luas lines as well as the existing Dart line, to give Dublin a rail network.

Last December, the Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey described the proposed rail tunnel as the “most critical piece” of public-transport infrastructure in the State, and pledged that it would proceed, notwithstanding the Government’s yawning budget deficit. The estimate for the “Dart Underground” is €2 billion – considerably less than the still-secret cost of Metro North, which would provide a single, 18km Luas line from Swords to St Stephen’s Green. Given that the CIÉ plan would integrate existing suburban rail services, it seems better suited to serve Dublin’s sprawl than the metro.

What’s not included in the €2 billion estimate, however, is the cost of electrifying lines to Kildare, Maynooth and Drogheda so that trains could use the tunnel; clearly, diesel engines could not be allowed through because of the fumes they emit. The question remains of whether a cash-starved Government will have the stomach to go ahead with this.



What a synopsis; this is FMD doing WMD on the RPA's uncosted Luas line in such a well written way.

There are two things I would like to add to this near perfect synopsis; most tube trains work with the electrical current coming from the track bed and not overhead lines. To realistically cost an essential upgrade to underground DART costs would need to be sourced for retro fitting DARTS to draw current from a trackbed system and overhead wires on existing DART section to at least a sizeable section of the DART fleet and the line from where it is proposed to surface at Kilmainham to say Hazelhatch in phase 1 before extending to Balbriggan and Maynooth in time. Rebuilding numerous bridges and erecting large quantities of overhead wirescapes would add excessive cost and involve much more disruption to the existing network.

Secondly CIE are a real company with plenty of undeveloped real estate; CIE should begin a discussion process with a number of International real estate groups who have developed major mixed use schemes at rail hubs for example the groups who did Kings Cross London or Spencer Dock Dublin. This would establish what type of income stream could be produced by doing a joint venture to coincide with completion and such sums could be set against future bond payments to hedge exposure to the taxpayer.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby marmajam » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:18 pm

PVC King wrote:What a synopsis; this is FMD doing WMD on the RPA's uncosted Luas line in such a well written way.

There are two things I would like to add to this near perfect synopsis; most tube trains work with the electrical current coming from the track bed and not overhead lines. To realistically cost an essential upgrade to underground DART costs would need to be sourced for retro fitting DARTS to draw current from a trackbed system and overhead wires on existing DART section to at least a sizeable section of the DART fleet and the line from where it is proposed to surface at Kilmainham to say Hazelhatch in phase 1 before extending to Balbriggan and Maynooth in time. Rebuilding numerous bridges and erecting large quantities of overhead wirescapes would add excessive cost and involve much more disruption to the existing network.

Secondly CIE are a real company with plenty of undeveloped real estate; CIE should begin a discussion process with a number of International real estate groups who have developed major mixed use schemes at rail hubs for example the groups who did Kings Cross London or Spencer Dock Dublin. This would establish what type of income stream could be produced by doing a joint venture to coincide with completion and such sums could be set against future bond payments to hedge exposure to the taxpayer.


incorrect.

IC will use overhead wires

you do love making things up
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby cgcsb » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:23 pm

it is possible to run an underground system without drawing power from the trackbed. Why wouldn't overhead lines work? they do the same job
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby missarchi » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:20 am

cgcsb wrote:it is possible to run an underground system without drawing power from the trackbed. Why wouldn't overhead lines work? they do the same job


visual clutter? If BXD ends up having no wires then mabye metro north should aswell.
Unless they intend on running high speed trains on it or connecting with the northern line.
I hope they allow for high speed trains and signalling on the "upgrades"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko4wYN-1SVU
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby marmajam » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:55 pm

missarchi wrote:visual clutter? If BXD ends up having no wires then mabye metro north should aswell.
Unless they intend on running high speed trains on it or connecting with the northern line.
I hope they allow for high speed trains and signalling on the "upgrades"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko4wYN-1SVU


I believe they're thinking of sending the trains upside down through the tunnel.

This way the power lines will be next to the floor and less unsightly.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby PVC King » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:30 pm

marmajam wrote:incorrect.

IC will use overhead wires

you do love making things up


Most underground systems use a 'third rail system' including London, Paris and Frankfurt as it reduces the size of the tunnel required and in this case would lead to a lot less rebuilding of existing route components. If you could stick to the points raised instead of resorting to immature personnal attacks people might actually read what you have said before they reject it.


In any event Irish Rail have not submitted a works order or planning application so they still have the luxury of making modifications to any preliminary models they may have compiled when money was less of an object; needless to say given their extensive real estate portfolio in strategic locations they also have the opportunity to highlight how they propose to fund their scheme.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby marmajam » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:59 pm

decision already made in PA being prepared right now.
overhead lines being used.

bit rash to say 'most', many systems worldwide use overhead lines.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby PVC King » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:12 pm

marmajam wrote:decision already made in PA being prepared right now.
overhead lines being used.

bit rash to say 'most', many systems worldwide use overhead lines.


I've not come across an underground without a third rail

Current Status of Project The preliminary design of the project has been completed. The project is due for completion in 2015. Work is currently underway on the scheme design, geotechnical investigation and preparation of an environmental impact study including a detailed archaeological report. Iarnród Éireann expect to submit an application for a Railway Order to An Bord Pleanala by the end 2009


There is time to tweak the project as there are no grounds to challenge the planning process based on project assessment carried out to date; they could however fit a third rail to the surface sections as an interim measure should the costs and disruptive effects of creating a wirescape from Hazelhatch to the tunnel be excessive.

The concept of DART should be subservient to the concept of creating a central underground spine for the wider Dublin transportation network this line should be viewed as handling the last 15 - 20 miles into Dublin on 2 existing lines and freeing up significant capacity on two others.

In light of reduced development levels it is vital that the four existing rail lines form four medium density corridors where development is activily promoted. This project is the only one that can deliver so much potential; literally 12 miles South, 12 miles North if you include Howth as an extra, 12 miles west and 12 miles to Maynooth. Not to forget the 3 miles in the middle!
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby B.JOS » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:02 pm

Madrids huge metro system uses overhead wires on most, if not all of its lines . In fact , Bilbao and Barcelona do aswell . Was in barcelona recently and a group
of young guys crossed the tracks to the other platform , pretty stupid really , but the line was definately not third rail , nor was it light rail for that matter .



" Catenary
Since 1999 Metro de Madrid uses a new patented system for Metro de Madrid, A solid track hung from the roof of the tunnels, instead of the typical copper wire or aluminum. This type of catenary (or overhead line) is rigid, it is better because it has less failures. It can't be used in instalments over the surface, requiring much more support and therefore is more expensive to install.

This system is used in other cities."
Stolen from wikipedia
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby B.JOS » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:07 pm

Madrid , Barcelona and Bilbao all use overhead wires .
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby missarchi » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:09 am

Seville and Valencia too?
Moscow is third rail and London some big cites...
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby marmajam » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:46 am

there are many systems worldwide that use overhead lines - I've seen them myself.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby marmajam » Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:05 am

PVC King wrote:


There is time to tweak the project as there are no grounds to challenge the planning process based on project assessment carried out to date; they could however fit a third rail to the surface sections as an interim measure should the costs and disruptive effects of creating a wirescape from Hazelhatch to the tunnel be excessive.

!


U C PeeVeeCee you've produced this expert's assessment without the knowledge that IE have already rebuilt the KIldare line bridges to take overhead lines.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby missarchi » Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:37 am

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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby marmajam » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:15 am

bulldoze them, bleedin nimbys

then use them as forced labour to save costs
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby gunter » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:53 am

marmajam wrote:bulldoze them, bleedin nimbys


A tad intemperate there marmajam, but not without some justification.

The piece includes this outragously misrepresentative statement:

[INDENT]''This plan included an entirely new 2.5km extension of the tunnel that would surface in an enormous construction site in the middle of the historic Inchicore Railway Estate, a residential estate of some 250 homes, that along with the the Inchicore railway works is a setpiece of nineteenth century vernacular architecture which is unique in the state''.[/INDENT]

The line is intended to surface inside the old CIE works, which is a compound few of us have ever had the chance to get into for more that fifteen minutes and while there are legitimate concerns about construction management, the design of the tunnel entrance, and the protection of industrial heritage, to suggest that the 'historic Inchicore Railway Estate', is about to be plunged into some kind of orgy of destruction, or even that the proposal in any way jeopardizes 'this setpiece of nineteenth century vernacular architecture' is hysterical nonsense of a kind we heard before from Inchicore when the Luas was first mooted to come down Tyrconnel Road, Emmet Road and Old Kilmainham.

The Inchicore branch of the virtual Luddite Society continues to thrive:mad:
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby marmajam » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:12 pm

on top of that, they're getting an Inchicore railway station that they've been crying for since the days of horse and carts public transport.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby marmajam » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:53 pm



as the wise man said:

'another joe duffy caller escaped into the wild'
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