Interconnector aka DART underground

Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby missarchi » Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:35 am

cgcsb wrote:It's been such a long time, I'm afraid I can't remember. With the plans I see now, they are clearly using single deck trains. Evidently IÉ doesn't think the double deckers are worth the hastle.


problem with double deckers they normally only have 2 sets of doors???
and they reduce frequency... increase dwell times?
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby cgcsb » Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:01 pm

missarchi wrote:problem with double deckers they normally only have 2 sets of doors???
and they reduce frequency... increase dwell times?


why would they only have two sets of doors? I've used the RER in Paris quite frequently, there are plenty of doors. I've never sat down and counted them though
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby cgcsb » Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:07 pm

Paul Clerkin wrote:Is there enough clearance under the overhead lines? The older bridges?


The RER trains in Paris are actually not that much bigger than single deck ones because the floor is alot lower, two steps down from the platform and each deck is about 6.5foot high. There is a mezzanine area in the train onfront of each door that is normally where the taller gentlemen such as myself stand. Hitting your head can be very embarassing
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby missarchi » Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:12 am

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/NC0006.htm

NC0006: ()
Dublin City Council
Proposed underground DART line between Inchicore and the Docklands (via Heuston Station), Dublin.
Case reference: PL29N.NC0006
Case type: Railway Ord. - Consultation
Status: Consultancy has yet to be concluded
Parties

* Iarnród Eireann (Prospective Appl)

* Dublin City Council (Local Authority) (Active)

History

* 14/04/2009: Lodged
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby Blisterman » Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:42 pm

I don't think double decker trains are a very good option, for a public transport system like this.

A much better option would be to have trains with one long articulated carriage, like a bendy bus, as found in paris, so as to maximise the amount of standing area in the length of train, while still remaining single decker.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby weehamster » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:52 pm

I don't think double decker trains are a very good option, for a public transport system like this.


The DART line using the interconnector will start in Drogheda and stop in Hazlehatch. The Hazlehatch end will eventually be extended to Kildare Town (Newbridge, Naas/Salins) . I think Double Decker (DD) trains would be ideal for a Drogheda to Kildare "Commuter" type service.

But I dont think that DD trains would be suitable for the other DART line Maynooth to Greystones
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby cgcsb » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:38 am

weehamster wrote:The DART line using the interconnector will start in Drogheda and stop in Hazlehatch. The Hazlehatch end will eventually be extended to Kildare Town (Newbridge, Naas/Salins) . I think Double Decker (DD) trains would be ideal for a Drogheda to Kildare "Commuter" type service.

But I dont think that DD trains would be suitable for the other DART line Maynooth to Greystones


The DART will not run to Drogheda, It will terminate service in Balbriggan. With a possible future extension to Drogheda. What I'm wondering is can the tunnel accomidate DD trains. It would be wise for CIE to construct the tunnel with this in mind just to keep their future options for capacity enhancement open. Why wouldn't the Maynooth to Graystones line be able to accom DD trains? it's entirely overground
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby marmajam » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:18 am

cgcsb wrote:The DART will not run to Drogheda, It will terminate service in Balbriggan. With a possible future extension to Drogheda. What I'm wondering is can the tunnel accomidate DD trains. It would be wise for CIE to construct the tunnel with this in mind just to keep their future options for capacity enhancement open. Why wouldn't the Maynooth to Graystones line be able to accom DD trains? it's entirely overground


I thought that was their plan. DD trains.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby cgcsb » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:45 am

So did I, can't remember where I read it though, do you? but the new DART carriages that have been ordered are of the single deck variety and in the new T21 video, it appears to be a single deck dart transversing the tunnel
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby jimg » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:11 pm

The plan has changed (back again) and the DART is to run to Drogheda. The cost of building extra platforms and sidings to turn Ballbriggan into a terminus allowing turn-back worked out to almost negate the the savings made by not electrifying the bit between Balbriggan and Drogheda. It a much better idea as they can replace the Diesel commuter trains completely with electric on that line instead of having a mix of DART, Diesel commuter and intercity. They've also modified the Hueston end of the plan; the tunnel is now to run to Inchicore and the Heuston DART underground platforms will be under the main station instead of being under Guinesses.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby pippin101 » Tue May 05, 2009 4:05 pm

missarchi wrote:http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/NC0006.htm

NC0006: ()
Dublin City Council
Proposed underground DART line between Inchicore and the Docklands (via Heuston Station), Dublin.
Case reference: PL29N.NC0006
Case type: Railway Ord. - Consultation
Status: Consultancy has yet to be concluded
Parties

* Iarnród Eireann (Prospective Appl)

* Dublin City Council (Local Authority) (Active)

History

* 14/04/2009: Lodged

What exactly is the above? It's surely not the PP for Interconnector proper, as this isn't being lodged until September I believe?
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby tommyt » Tue May 05, 2009 10:05 pm

pippin101 wrote:What exactly is the above? It's surely not the PP for Interconnector proper, as this isn't being lodged until September I believe?


It's the initial application An Bord Pleanala to determine if the interconnector is or is not Strategic Infrastructure and ipso facto can apply for pp undr the SI Act ( in case you hadn't noticed missarchi doesn't really 'do' context, and comes more from the enigmatic wing of archiposters;))
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby missarchi » Thu May 07, 2009 6:19 am

http://www.arup.ie/index.jsp?p=118&n=279

nice curves!

I'm wondering if they are going to go for 4 escalators or more per station?
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby SunnyDub » Thu May 07, 2009 1:55 pm

I wonder is this project going to be funded by this new scheme?


Pension funds willing to put €6bn into State projects

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0506/1224245994684.html
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby missarchi » Fri May 08, 2009 6:12 am

In some ways its good in some ways its bad.
But its not like they are going to publish live passenger movements or weekly data...

People who invest want returns = higher ticket prices and cheaper labour

So it creates a massive captive market for increase in prices and not caring about service...
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby ac1976 » Fri May 08, 2009 1:26 pm

The newly extended plan to Inchicore Works is absolutely crazy.
Irish Rail have devised it in a way so that the tunnel opening is in an existing playing field in a residential area. They then intend on selling their land within Inhicore Works and buildining a future surface station. This is all to maximise the value of their land.

This is an absolutely crazy idiotic way to plan a transport network not to mention housing developement (which this land is not currently zoned for).

It is clear that the interconnector should be planned to maximise value for money, and in the public interest, not that of IR. The tunnel opening should be within the Inchicore Works lands, some of which they want to sell so presumable they dont need all 75 acers.

The station should be underground and located to maximise public access which will also deliver the best value for money. This planning needs to happen now as an underground station would need to be built with the tunnel.

There seems to be something corrupt in the process whereby Irish Rail can make a proposal for the development of a major public transport plan and tag on a residential development all in their own interest and not service the public interest. And its absolutely crazy that the RPA would accept such a proposal!

This is planning for the future at it's worst, the kind of self-serving planning that left Dublin with unceonnected Rail terminals accross the city in the first place.

Stop the madness!
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby jimg » Fri May 08, 2009 2:00 pm

Where are these details published? In the official press releases etc. the site of the portal and the new station are on existing Irish Rail works land.

In any case, I fail to see what is it you think is "absolutely crazy idiotic"? The densification of areas close to rail infrastructure sounds like good planning to me.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby ac1976 » Fri May 08, 2009 2:28 pm

Jimg, whats crazy is that a "private" company, Irish Rail, with a vested interest is the body doing the planning. That is crazy planning.

It is NOT in line with Local Area Plan, Dublin City Development Plan or any other planning.
There is no objective in Transport 21 to support the value of Irish Rail's land or the development of any new community on it's lands.
The full details have not yet been published, I believe Irish Rail intend doing this as part of the Railway Order, which is technically published by the RPA.
the portal is in a playing field with is owned by Irish Rail, but not within the works itself as it is used by the community.
It's not really up to Irish Rail to decide on Land Zoning, thats for the council.

Of course densification has many benefits but it needs to be planned properly, what is the point in having development palns and local government if landowners such as Irish Rail just make up their own plans and ignore them!

Incidentily the Environmental Impact Statement has already been published and there is nothing in it about this extension and the lands in Inchicore works. Nothing mentioned about densification, land rezoning. Presumable this is why the inchicore works station is a 'future' station, to try getting around this legality.

There is another strangeness to this, there is actually a station with proper platforms in Inchicore Works already on the Kildare line, but this is not in public use, it is there just to service the yard. This could easily be used today to service the Irish Rail land there already at no cost if it was developed for housing. And if the original plan to have the tunnel opening at Heuston went ahead this station could still be used in the future.

This smells of corruption to me, Irish Rail using the Tranport 21 budget to it's own gain and not that of the public.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby cgcsb » Fri May 08, 2009 3:53 pm

Irish rail isn't a private company, it's owned by CIE which is a state company. The RPA is not at all associated with IE. IE submits it's own applications. RPA only deal with light rail projects
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby marmajam » Fri May 08, 2009 4:11 pm

ac1976 wrote:Jimg, whats crazy is that a "private" company, Irish Rail, with a vested interest is the body doing the planning. That is crazy planning.

It is NOT in line with Local Area Plan, Dublin City Development Plan or any other planning.
There is no objective in Transport 21 to support the value of Irish Rail's land or the development of any new community on it's lands.
The full details have not yet been published, I believe Irish Rail intend doing this as part of the Railway Order, which is technically published by the RPA.
the portal is in a playing field with is owned by Irish Rail, but not within the works itself as it is used by the community.
It's not really up to Irish Rail to decide on Land Zoning, thats for the council.

Of course densification has many benefits but it needs to be planned properly, what is the point in having development palns and local government if landowners such as Irish Rail just make up their own plans and ignore them!

Incidentily the Environmental Impact Statement has already been published and there is nothing in it about this extension and the lands in Inchicore works. Nothing mentioned about densification, land rezoning. Presumable this is why the inchicore works station is a 'future' station, to try getting around this legality.

There is another strangeness to this, there is actually a station with proper platforms in Inchicore Works already on the Kildare line, but this is not in public use, it is there just to service the yard. This could easily be used today to service the Irish Rail land there already at no cost if it was developed for housing. And if the original plan to have the tunnel opening at Heuston went ahead this station could still be used in the future.

This smells of corruption to me, Irish Rail using the Tranport 21 budget to it's own gain and not that of the public.


on the basis of several deluded premises you post this boring rant.

the word crazed springs to mind.

it is interesting how any crank can come upon a proposal, then without an iota of accurate information, launches off into a paranoid wobbler utterly detached from any reality known to man, aliens, or beast.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby SunnyDub » Fri May 08, 2009 4:17 pm

ac1976:"It is clear that the interconnector should be planned to maximise value for money, and in the public interest, not that of IR". Since IR is owned by the State it's the same thing, the State gets the dividend.

By the way, anyone can apply to build anything provided they own the land on which they propose to build? anyone. that's the system, IR does its planning and the planning board assesses the application with regard to policy. IR has no planning obligation other than to its shareholder.

I suspect someone has been going around your area spreading false rumours, another nimby out of the bag.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby ac1976 » Sat May 09, 2009 9:17 am

Jeez Marmajam, that's a bit harsh. this is a public forum and this thread is about planning matters. I'm just raising the point that bad and un-transparent planning creats issues that affect all of us. (deluded or not)
If you think it's boring you dont have to read it and you certainly shouldn't have bothered yourself to reply if you had nothing posative to contribute. Just stick to Metro North if you will.

I think it's interesting that people are questioning the details and the information about this project because IR have only given sketchy info and done this orally at local meetings so there is nothing but heresay to go by for now. Which is a pity because we are in the public consultation phase of the project, and it's difficult to have a proper debate without the details. I do know that the issue of planning on this proposal has been raised with the minister of Environment by elected local reps, and I was just trying to get people talking about this before the plan is finalised and published.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby jimg » Sat May 09, 2009 10:09 am

ac, you'll have to be a bit clearer about what it is exactly you are objecting to as it is not at all obvious what aspect of the plan has you whipped into such a frenzy.

Irish Rail have been selling off surplus land for decades to developers and if they feel they don't need all the land at the Inchicore works they'll sell it for apartments, Interconnector or no Interconnector. What is going through planning at the moment (the railway order) has absolutely nothing to do with apartments, the planning for which, if/when they get around to it, will be completely separate. Why you'd object to high density development near what will be the highest capacity railway in the country is beyond me 'though.

Irish Rail are generally generous (to the point of carelessness) in allowing people to use their land if it doesn't interfere with the running of the railway. I'm not sure why you'd repay this generosity with this Nimbyism; just like I hardly admire those who've used adverse possession law to grab IR's assets because of IR's relaxed attitude to the use of some of its property. It's not Irish Rail's remit to provide leisure facilities to local communities - it's to run a rail service (albeit badly).

You seem to be completely confused about the relationship between IR, the RPA and the local planning system so I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say in the rest of your message.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby SunnyDub » Sat May 09, 2009 11:25 am

"....that's a bit harsh. this is a public forum and this thread is about planning matters...it's difficult to have a proper debate without the details.... I was just trying to get people talking about this before the plan is finalised and published".

Keep digging ac1976, you might get the tunnel built by yourself! It's not a bit harsh to accuse IR of corruption or make up nonsense about the project, no? Or to try to subvert the lawful planning process by making representations to the Minister?

The planning process is for detailed examination of proposals, objections, and raising non-existent issues and trying to gain control over someone else's land...
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby missarchi » Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:49 am

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