Interconnector aka DART underground

Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby PVC King » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:09 pm

You got to hand it to PP they always get good pr on controversial incursions into the fields of politics and business; the Tony Hayward odds on not making it to December look seriously generous.

I'd take €10,000 on Metro North at even money being officially binned or indeifinitely delayed within 12 months.

I'd also take a similar position on a significant Eircom bond event on a similar timeframe.

Wouldn't touch Interconnector the project will happen sometime between 2018-2020 which is far too long to bank on PP not going under due to their generous odds!!!
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby ac1976 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:55 pm

http://www.dartundergroundrailwayorder.ie/
The Railyway Order is available now online.
This includes an Area Framework Plan for the Inchicore Works Site.

I have to say I am very unimpressed with the Framework plan, this massive site is over 1km from Inchicore Village and the only way to get into it for the 1,000's of people that will be living or working there is on foot/bike or underground on the DART.
They were relying on the Lucan Luas to proovide a single stop for the site, but the Lucan LUAS is about to be officially scrapped, an having just one stop was inadequate anyway.
Not a single bus stop or route for the whole site, obviously Dublin Bus dont trust Irish Rail any more than the Comptroller and Auditer General! No working relationship there I guess.
And there is hardly any road access to the massive site so they couldnt even include parking in the plan if they wanted.

And they are a public transport company! There is nothing Urban about that kind of plan at all, its far too isolated.
It also detracts from the plans to regenerate Inchicore Village and St Michaels Estate.

I think they should have a twin station: Inchicore Works and Inchcore Village and develop the hub together, you could then have parking QBC's access to the N4/M50 etc etc,
thats my new soap-box anyway...
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby PVC King » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:46 pm

You need to see Inchicore works in the context not just of Inchicore Village but also in terms of the aging industrial areas such as Jamestown Ind Est and West Link Ind Est This area south of the tracks is pure brownfield with industrial size holdings which could be developed to much higher densities with limited site assembly issues.

Once IC completes this area will be extremely well connected once the line is not struck down by passenger incidents and the like. The land IE hold at Inchicore can be developed on a JV basis creating significant value which will give IE funds to expand the network further. The subsequent development of neighbouring industrial estates could make a serious dent in the interest costs for the IC project if development levies are recovered; building flash flats on sites that are currently sheds yielding €6-7 a square foot with 50-75% site coverage leaves a lot of jam to be spread.

With a pedestrian link from Tyrconnell Rd to Tyrconnell PK the edge of the Inchicore Works site is barely a ten minute walk. Not perfect but hardly arduous
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby ac1976 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:47 am

I'm not so sure PVC, I think its missing the vehicular access.
It's similar in size and mix to the likes of Sandyford Industrial Estate, but without any parking, buses or Luas. Of course it will have the DART station.
I'm not so sure companies or residents would be so attracted to Sandyford without the ability to park there, or get a bus to it.

Inchicore Works will be easier and quicker to access from the Docklands, Pearse Street and Stephens Green than from Inchicore village and this is a bit strange and isolated for an Urban Quarter.

This can all be addressed, perhaps by levies as you suggest, but these levies could be used to build the Lucan Luas line passing through the site, perhaps with some extra stops to maximise the benefit to the Inchicore Site since it would be paying for it.
It just seems that there is something missing here.

Another extra-ordinary thing is that although the only way in and out is walking/cycling or the DART Irish Rail are proposing a whole 30 Bike parking spaces to be built at the station!
Thats really low as the catchment around this station for pedestrians is very very low, this could be supplimented by a larger cycle catchment but not with just 30 bike spcaes! Are they as ignorant of the needs of cyclists in their other stations?
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby missarchi » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:05 pm

ac1976 wrote:Thats really low as the catchment around this station for pedestrians is very very low, this could be supplimented by a larger cycle catchment but not with just 30 bike spcaes! Are they as ignorant of the needs of cyclists in their other stations?


It does seem odd considering that report floating around and DCC are also 448 per station

DTO originally stated 400 for swords 200 for others. It then references an inner city strategy.
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Still nothing about bikes on trains.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby PVC King » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:43 pm

ac1976 wrote:I'm not so sure PVC, I think its missing the vehicular access.
It's similar in size and mix to the likes of Sandyford Industrial Estate, but without any parking, buses or Luas. Of course it will have the DART station.
I'm not so sure companies or residents would be so attracted to Sandyford without the ability to park there, or get a bus to it.

Inchicore Works will be easier and quicker to access from the Docklands, Pearse Street and Stephens Green than from Inchicore village and this is a bit strange and isolated for an Urban Quarter.

This can all be addressed, perhaps by levies as you suggest, but these levies could be used to build the Lucan Luas line passing through the site, perhaps with some extra stops to maximise the benefit to the Inchicore Site since it would be paying for it.
It just seems that there is something missing here.

Another extra-ordinary thing is that although the only way in and out is walking/cycling or the DART Irish Rail are proposing a whole 30 Bike parking spaces to be built at the station!
Thats really low as the catchment around this station for pedestrians is very very low, this could be supplimented by a larger cycle catchment but not with just 30 bike spcaes! Are they as ignorant of the needs of cyclists in their other stations?


30 bikes does not seem to indicate that CIE were aware of the fantastic restoration of the Grand Canal and building of a cycle track that Peter Fitz posted a few weeks back.

There may be some merit in building a loop on Luas Red from Bluebell close to Inchicore Works and reconnecting with the Luas line at the end of Kilmainham Lane; the benefit to interconnector would be that if there is a pasenger incidient that Luas could have most service re-routed via Inchicore works and turn DARTS back at both Spencer Dock and Inchicore ensuring that commuters at each end could switch modes to Luas. No doubt people in Drimnagh and Fatima would not be pleased but on balance there are more commuters further out....
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby SeamusOG » Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:58 am

The EIS for this project certainly makes very interesting reading.

We recently had Mr Rory O'Connor from the RPA presenting ABP with his views on the interchange options for the metro and interconnector. He noted that there were a small number of locations in the city which would be suitable for such an interchange. He then waxed lyrical about the advantages of an interchange at St. Stephen's Green, but had nary a word to say about the other potential locations.

Now we have the interconnector designers presenting us with an EIS which has an enormous amount of out-of-date stuff about the importance of building the interconnector close to the Digital Hub (whatever happened to that?). And this:

CIE wrote:The criteria regarding the route of DART Underground were based on policy requirements for intersecting with DART, Luas and proposed Metro lines. For example, the DTO strategy, A Platform for Change, outlined a requirement for the proposed DART Underground to connect/interchange with existing services including DART stations north and south of the River Liffey, Luas, Metro and at Heuston Station. Further requirements were expressed for a station to service the Docklands development area, the historical area around St. Patrick's Cathedral and the new modern technology business area known as Digital Hub.

(my emboldening)

Why? Why "existing" services? Why not "planned" services, in a city which is endeavouring to develop a public transport network?

It's worth noting here that the initial public consultation for the interconnector project took place after the RPA had publicly identified their preferred route for the Luas link-up. Therefore, an interchange with the Luas should also be achievable at a point further north, such as College Green. Yet the EIS quite clearly shows that College Green was never even considered as an option. (Probably because CIE were so focussed on 'existing' services, even if this meant building a longer, more expensive, circuitous route).

Indeed, one of the weaknesses identified for a potential station at nearby Tara Street was that any line through there would have "no station at St. Stephen's Green". Well, of course it wouldn't - it would be an east-west line, so it clearly couldn't be built through both St. Stephen's Green and the busiest parts of the city centre. You can't have it both ways.

It is clearly unacceptable if an EIS is presented which is incognisant of developments over the last few years and of developments which are likely to happen over the next few.

I would like to see the bould Rory from the RPA brought back to ABP to give more details about the other potential interchange locations which he was talking about.

And he might even give us a few ideas as to what we should do with the oul' Digital Hub:D.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby PVC King » Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:38 am

Indeed, one of the weaknesses identified for a potential station at nearby Tara Street was that any line through there would have "no station at St. Stephen's Green". Well, of course it wouldn't - it would be an east-west line, so it clearly couldn't be built through both St. Stephen's Green and the busiest parts of the city centre. You can't have it both ways.


This has been discussed before; there are two types of busy; tourist busy and commercially busy; College Green is the former and Stephens Green the latter.

Building Luas BX with a third rail to give a rapid connection for those not wanting to take the 5-7 minute walk from a choice of Christchurch, St Green or Tara St stations to any point within that triangle will create a perfect on street solution for those with mobility issues.


And he might even give us a few ideas as to what we should do with the Digital Hub.


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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby ac1976 » Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:53 am

Seamus O'G wrote:The EIS for this project certainly makes very interesting reading.

We recently had Mr Rory O'Connor from the RPA presenting ABP with his views on the interchange options for the metro and interconnector. He noted that there were a small number of locations in the city which would be suitable for such an interchange. He then waxed lyrical about the advantages of an interchange at St. Stephen's Green, but had nary a word to say about the other potential locations.

Now we have the interconnector designers presenting us with an EIS which has an enormous amount of out-of-date stuff about the importance of building the interconnector close to the Digital Hub (whatever happened to that?). And this:


(my emboldening)

Why? Why "existing" services? Why not "planned" services, in a city which is endeavouring to develop a public transport network?

It's worth noting here that the initial public consultation for the interconnector project took place after the RPA had publicly identified their preferred route for the Luas link-up. Therefore, an interchange with the Luas should also be achievable at a point further north, such as College Green. Yet the EIS quite clearly shows that College Green was never even considered as an option.

Indeed, one of the weaknesses identified for a potential station at nearby Tara Street was that any line through there would have "no station at St. Stephen's Green". Well, of course it wouldn't - it would be an east-west line, so it clearly couldn't be built through both St. Stephen's Green and the busiest parts of the city centre. You can't have it both ways.

It is clearly unacceptable if an EIS is presented which is incognisant of developments over the last few years and of developments which are likely to happen over the next few.

I would like to see the bould Rory from the RPA brought back to ABP to give more details about the other potential interchange locations which he was talking about. And he might even give us a few ideas as to what we should do with the oul' Digital Hub:D.


Thats very interesting... I was having a quick read through it aswell, and they do talk about the methodology and principles used to select the additional stations, which was that following best practice they decided to use these criteria:

From Chapter 2.5.2.1 (Mani EIS report)
Station location selection was broadly based on the following criteria:
-Connectivity with other public transport nodes.
-Interchange with existing stations.
-Proximity to business hubs, shopping districts and tourist areas.
-It was determined that the approximate spacing of stations should be in the region of 1 km apart and within 5-7 minutes walking time to the river.


However this phase of the project was complete before the tunnel was extended by 40% to Inchicore and the above criteria were certainly not use on this portion of the tunnel!
I would like to know why, as according to these principles there should be a station for Inchicore/Kilmainham area which is just over 1km from Heuston and just over 1km from the Inchciore Works site!

I know I go on about it but why should this part of the city be disadvantaged like this?
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby PVC King » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:00 am

Urban density
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby SeamusOG » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:03 am

PVC and ac, I'm going to take a few minutes to look at this. I unwittingly edited my post after you had posted yours, so I want to make sure that nothing I write in my reply is out of line.

But, God, you guys are early risers!:)
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby missarchi » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:34 am

The interconnector is by indirect proxy is banking rolling docklands and the celtic tiger atmosphere that led to all this speculation that caused this crash.
That may be why it doesn't stop at the conbridge.
It's a bit odd how the project that is built above the station is already "built" and many banks and leading financial insititutians are located near this area.

banks like being next to stations naturally...
I wonder what paul the octopuss has to say or viridian/pinki glass got there wires crossed?
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby ac1976 » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:03 am

PVC King wrote:Urban density


Morning PVC, that may be a valid point, but it's not an explination as:
I dont see any maps of Urban Density along the section of tunnel west of Heuston, and if this were the reason it would be odd that the only station they are proposing west of Heuston, in Inchicore Works, is exactly at the least densily population location!
They would also need to consider Dublin City Development Plan which is biased twords encouraging higer density in the older parts of the city that have declining populations before making such a decision.

It's obvious that they never properly considered this section of tunnel in the same was as they did the other 60%, project error in my view as it leaves the open to major abuse from me!
This happened because these considerations were made in Phase 1 of the project, and the extension to Inchciore Works (adding 40% more tunnel) was decided in Phase 2.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby SeamusOG » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:18 am

PVC King wrote:This has been discussed before; there are two types of busy; tourist busy and commercially busy; College Green is the former and Stephens Green the latter.

PVC, as you note, we've been through this before. As I recall from the last time, your focus was very much on the financial managers and their lawyers, and their preference for St. Stephen's Green as a location for the interchange. Unfortunately, many of them would be - by European norms - quite remote (if they're on Adelaide Road or Fitzwilliam Place, for example, around 1 km) from the proposed interchange, and would realistically have to look at extensions of the network to bring their public transport experience up to the standards enjoyed in most western European cities of a similar size.

On the other hand, my logic was, and is, that, when building the highest capacity line, the city needs to focus on delivering the largest number of commuters - whether they be the financial managers or lawyers that you favour, hairdressers, architects, civil servants, waiters, university lectures, whatever - as far as possible to their optimum location. And, according to the available figures, the optimum location seems to be in the centre, somewhere around College Green,

As a network is developed, these commuters can then change, if need be.

So, nothing really to do with the tourists
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby ac1976 » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:02 am

Seamus O'G wrote:On the other hand, my logic was, and is, that, when building the highest capacity line, the city needs to focus on delivering the largest number of commuters - whether they be the financial managers or lawyers that you favour, hairdressers, architects, civil servants, waiters, university lectures, whatever - as far as possible to their optimum location. And, according to the available figures, the optimum location seems to be in the centre, somewhere around College Green,

As a network is developed, these commuters can then change, if need be.

So, nothing really to do with the tourists


This is good logic, but the logic used by the DART Underground Project Team seems a bit odd. Being close to the Liffey was more important than being close to commuters!
What is that about? Where did they get this from! Hardly International Best Practice!
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby Cathal Dunne » Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:13 pm

When are they breaking ground on this project? It should be a great addition to the city given that it will boost capacity on the Dublin rail network. That should encourage more people to use trains and ease traffic congestion around Town further. Hopefully the Phoenix Park Tunnel is developed so that we can have a northside line on the new Dublin Underground.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby Frank Taylor » Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:45 pm

It looks like Metro North will have a railway order granted 15.5 months after applying. That would make mid October 2011 for Interconnector to get permission and a further year to sign a contract. Perhaps they will have learnt from metro north and the process will go faster. Both projects really need to be signed by the current administration to have any chance of proceeding.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby PVC King » Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:45 pm

Seamus O'G wrote: PVC, as you note, we've been through this before. As I recall from the last time, your focus was very much on the financial managers and their lawyers, and their preference for St. Stephen's Green as a location for the interchange. Unfortunately, many of them would be - by European norms - quite remote (if they're on Adelaide Road or Fitzwilliam Place, for example, around 1 km) from the proposed interchange, and would realistically have to look at extensions of the network to bring their public transport experience up to the standards enjoyed in most western European cities of a similar size.



Seamus living and working in London's West end and with most clients I've worked with being based in the City of London I understand mass transit. Most work places IN London are 5 - 10 minutes walk from a tube station. To get Adelaide Road you would simply interchange with Luas at Stephens Green and alight at Harcourt; for Fitz Place a pleasant 10 minute stroll through the Green and up Leeson Street; from College Green it would be a trek or a longer tram journey.


Seamus O'G wrote: On the other hand, my logic was, and is, that, when building the highest capacity line, the city needs to focus on delivering the largest number of commuters - whether they be the financial managers or lawyers that you favour, hairdressers, architects, civil servants, waiters, university lectures, whatever - as far as possible to their optimum location. And, according to the available figures, the optimum location seems to be in the centre, somewhere around College Green,

As a network is developed, these commuters can then change, if need be.

So, nothing really to do with the tourists


Could you at least cite some arguments based on plot ratios or something; listing a kitchen sink of professions is not helpful. You haven't stated why it is the centre; I see College Green I see magnificent architectural treasures designed for aristocrats to strut around like peacocks with loads of wide open spaces; not commercial buildings ergonomically squeezing staff into chicken coop scale work stations; concealed behind modern shiny facades with generous meeting rooms to look opulent to clients but masking just how intensively they are used.


It looks like Metro North will have a railway order granted 15.5 months after applying. That would make mid October 2011 for Interconnector to get permission and a further year to sign a contract. Perhaps they will have learnt from metro north and the process will go faster. Both projects really need to be signed by the current administration to have any chance of proceeding.


It won't happen in my opinion within the life of this parliment and certainly won't happen until markets start move away from sovereign debt fears and start concentrating on corporate earnings again. The interest rate to service Irish 10 year debt is now twice that paid by Germany with the ratings agencies watching expenditure very carefully. One more downgrade........

That is why it is absolutely vital that Interconnector is allowed to face public scrutiny via ABP prior to any project that has the potential to take up so much of the capital budget as to defer it; the debt cycle moves in 10 year cycles it is therefore likely that if a project is defered it is for a ten year period.

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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby PVC King » Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:58 pm

Cathal Dunne wrote:When are they breaking ground on this project? It should be a great addition to the city given that it will boost capacity on the Dublin rail network. That should encourage more people to use trains and ease traffic congestion around Town further. Hopefully the Phoenix Park Tunnel is developed so that we can have a northside line on the new Dublin Underground.



Not convinced of the strategic value of the PP tunnel once IC is completed; totally sure that de Nartcide will have four DART lines to the Southside's 2 once the Maynooth/Pace Sections are electrified. More critically the ability to run 5 minute or lower frequencies at peak time on the Maynooth/ Pace sections (post where they merge) will be real progress and allow much higher densities and vastly reduced door to door journey times.

I also favour a fifth Northside Dart line; a spur to the North bank of the liffey at Lucan; less than a mile in length it would probably be about roughly €950m cheaper than the proposed Luas alternative.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby bg07 » Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:16 am

Frank Taylor wrote:It looks like Metro North will have a railway order granted 15.5 months after applying. That would make mid October 2011 for Interconnector to get permission and a further year to sign a contract. Perhaps they will have learnt from metro north and the process will go faster. Both projects really need to be signed by the current administration to have any chance of proceeding.


MN railway order took more like 20 months assuming it is granted this month. It was originally lodged on the 18th of September 2008.

Link

If ABP take as long with DU then it probably wont granted within the term current government with sufficient time to get contracts signed off etc.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby SeamusOG » Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:04 am

PVC King wrote:Seamus living and working in London's West end and with most clients I've worked with being based in the City of London I understand mass transit.

I have no reason to doubt your understanding of mass transit. But Dublin is effectively a clean slate in this regard, as the city prepares to add an underground element to her transport system, and the factors at play are different to what they are in a developed city like London.

PVC King wrote:Most work places IN London are 5 - 10 minutes walk from a tube station. To get Adelaide Road you would simply interchange with Luas at Stephens Green and alight at Harcourt; for Fitz Place a pleasant 10 minute stroll through the Green and up Leeson Street; from College Green it would be a trek or a longer tram journey.


The walk between Fitzwilliam Place and St. Stephen's Green is lovely on a nice sunny day, and there are few walks I'd rather do. However, on many Dublin days, it involves a battle against the wind and pissing rain. Not a stroll, by any means, and a Luas line towards that area needs to eventually be built.

The intention in Dublin is to eventually build a network of DART, metro and Luas lines. So getting to or from places like Adelaide Road or Fitzwilliam Place would probably involve a change onto a Luas line, regardless of where the interchange is. It is true that a Luas journey between College Green and places like Adelaide Road or Fitzwilliam Place would be marginally longer than a similar journey to or from St. Stephen's Green, but on the plus side - if the interconnector were to be built through College Green (or some nearby location) - more people would be delivered directly to what approximates to the centre of the city . Overall, once the journeys of all DART/Luas commuters are taken into account, I am confident that such an arrangement would be more efficient.

PVC King wrote:Could you at least cite some arguments based on plot ratios or something; listing a kitchen sink of professions is not helpful.

No, I don't really see any need to cite arguments based on plot ratios. These haven't been used to justify construction of a longer, more expensive, circuitous route via St. Stephen's Green - instead the only justification ever officially advanced for this route was that it would enable interchange with the Luas. Clearly this will be possible at other locations in the future, when the Luas link-up is built. So I'm not sure why I should bring up plot ratios to justify a shorter, cheaper, more direct route which would have equal connectivity with the Luas and would, based on the available figures, bring more people to where they want to go.

And I provided a list of professions because you had previously been quite focussed on the commuting needs of financial managers and lawyers. I wished to point out that there are many people in many other walks of life, all paying the same fare as the financial managers and the lawyers, and all also wishing to find the most efficient way of travelling to and from work. As a product of a South Dublin private school, you may not necessarily have been aware of this.:p

PVC King wrote:You haven't stated why it is the centre; I see College Green I see magnificent architectural treasures designed for aristocrats to strut around like peacocks with loads of wide open spaces; not commercial buildings ergonomically squeezing staff into chicken coop scale work stations; concealed behind modern shiny facades with generous meeting rooms to look opulent to clients but masking just how intensively they are used.


Well, I'm not sure I can state that College Green is the centre. But the figures for bus services in the canal area, five years ago, showed that about 60% of all bus services in this area travelled through College Green, College Street or Hawkins Street, while the corresponding figure for St. Stephen's Green was just 23%. In a city with a largely bus-based public transport system, that would indicate to me that St. Stephen's Green is not the centre. In addition, the O'Reilly Consultants metro report clearly pointed to St. Stephen's Green not being the busiest city station. These might not be proof that College Green is the centre of the city, but they do offer convincing evidence that St. Stephen's Green isn't. In my opinion, these things are rather important when you're designing the highest capacity railway line ever to be built in Ireland.

We should also remember that the Luas green line was originally cut short because its construction would have caused too much disruption in the centre of the city.

You rightly point out that College Green is a wide open space - once one can see past all the clutter - and seemingly an ideal location for both an underground interchange and a splendid pedestrianised zone.

We could do with Rory from the RPA coming back to An Bord Pleanala with a fuller account of the interchange options.:)
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby PVC King » Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:37 am

Seamus O'G wrote: I have no reason to doubt your understanding of mass transit. But Dublin is effectively a clean slate in this regard, as the city prepares to add an underground element to her transport system, and the factors at play are different to what they are in a developed city like London.



You are far from starting with a clean slate; the object of the Interconnector line is not to start afresh it is to remove the loopline blockage and connect 4 principal rail corridors and 2 Luas lines all of which exist and will dramatically enhanced.


Seamus O'G wrote: The walk between Fitzwilliam Place and St. Stephen's Green is lovely on a nice sunny day, and there are few walks I'd rather do. However, on many Dublin days, it involves a battle against the wind and pissing rain. Not a stroll, by any means, and a Luas line towards that area needs to eventually be built.


You over play climate the city boomed from 1994-2005 sustainably with the weather and without any connection and the real win will be for two groups of people firstly those who are on crush loaded trains or can't get onto same and secondly those from the Western suburbs who have to change onto crush loaded Luas and to date no longer have to do the Luas walk from Abbey Street but now can interchange. I have no idea how you can assert that longer pedestrian journeys will assist commuters. I've never seen a pedestrian section on a transport map before like the Luas bridge; I have also had sight of passengers being challenged by ticket inspectors because 'it wasn't credible that it took them so long to get from one line to the other'

Seamus O'G wrote: The intention in Dublin is to eventually build a network of DART, metro and Luas lines. So getting to or from places like Adelaide Road or Fitzwilliam Place would probably involve a change onto a Luas line, regardless of where the interchange is. It is true that a Luas journey between College Green and places like Adelaide Road or Fitzwilliam Place would be marginally longer than a similar journey to or from St. Stephen's Green, but on the plus side - if the interconnector were to be built through College Green (or some nearby location) - more people would be delivered directly to what approximates to the centre of the city . Overall, once the journeys of all DART/Luas commuters are taken into account, I am confident that such an arrangement would be more efficient.


From College Green to the North is Red Luas and to the South Interconnector and the Luas link up intersects the two; throw in Tara Street and you have a number of options that Bank tube in London would be proud of. You forget that a move to zonal ticketing will mean that people will be able to interchange without paying an additional cost each time once they are on daily, weekly, Monthly or annual tickets.

Why build both East West corridors so close together; are you saying a third will then be built?

Seamus O'G wrote: No, I don't really see any need to cite arguments based on plot ratios. These haven't been used to justify construction of a longer, more expensive, circuitous route via St. Stephen's Green - instead the only justification ever officially advanced for this route was that it would enable interchange with the Luas.


No the justification is that Stephens Green is the commercial centre point of Dublin; you need some technical justification to claim otherwise.

Seamus O'G wrote: Clearly this will be possible at other locations in the future, when the Luas link-up is built. So I'm not sure why I should bring up plot ratios to justify a shorter, cheaper, more direct route which would have equal connectivity with the Luas and would, based on the available figures, bring more people to where they want to go.

And I provided a list of professions because you had previously been quite focussed on the commuting needs of financial managers and lawyers. I wished to point out that there are many people in many other walks of life, all paying the same fare as the financial managers and the lawyers, and all also wishing to find the most efficient way of travelling to and from work. As a product of a South Dublin private school, you may not necessarily have been aware of this.:p


As anyone who knows me will say I have taken a far from orthodox route to arrive where I am; having worked as a base controller for a top 3 bicycle courier company whilst in College I am acutely aware of where a very large cross section of commercial occupiers are; one also gets a feeling of where those clients did their meetings etc. There is no dispute that Grafton St as anchored by the St Green SC is the retail core; no question that St Green/ Dawson St is the office core. College Green is the tourist core and if traffic calmed has the potential to be a set piece to rival some of the best in Europe as a public open space; funnelling further development into this sensitive area would not be helpful.

Seamus O'G wrote: Well, I'm not sure I can state that College Green is the centre. But the figures for bus services in the canal area, five years ago, showed that about 60% of all bus services in this area travelled through College Green, College Street or Hawkins Street, while the corresponding figure for St. Stephen's Green was just 23%. In a city with a largely bus-based public transport system, that would indicate to me that St. Stephen's Green is not the centre. In addition, the O'Reilly Consultants metro report clearly pointed to St. Stephen's Green not being the busiest city station. These might not be proof that College Green is the centre of the city, but they do offer convincing evidence that St. Stephen's Green isn't. In my opinion, these things are rather important when you're designing the highest capacity railway line ever to be built in Ireland.



The An Lar maintality is exactly the problem with Dublin Bus; no 14/15 Bus should go any further than Harcourt Street once Luas is linked no 51 bus should be going further in than Hueston the thinking needs to become multi-modal. The strategy on London's Oxford St of reducing bus traffic 10% yoy is a good one the improvements to the pedestrian environment are just about tangiable after 1 year after 5 they will be very real and this for Dublin could be acheived gradually without a big bang inconvenience to DB users.

Seamus O'G wrote: We should also remember that the Luas green line was originally cut short because its construction would have caused too much disruption in the centre of the city.



This was cut short because Mammy O'Rourke listened to the Dublin Chamber of Commerce instead of the planners; if the Luas link up is done with a third rail then her only mistake will have been to leave the people of Ballymun without a rail connection; by default she has done more than any minister in recent years to protect some of the most important views and prospects in the City.



Seamus O'G wrote:You rightly point out that College Green is a wide open space - once one can see past all the clutter - and seemingly an ideal location for both an underground interchange and a splendid pedestrianised zone.

We could do with Rory from the RPA coming back to An Bord Pleanala with a fuller account of the interchange options.:)



No we could do with Roy from the RPA coming back to ABP to tell us the true cost of the proposed Metro North project and how they are going to fuse it together with the Luas link up to make it affordable.
PVC King
 

Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby SeamusOG » Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:46 am

PVC, I really can't go on explaining the same things to you again and again, because you are clearly deliberately avoiding a salient point.

The starting point for the design of any link - whether it be underground or overground, but especially underground, where there is more scope for directness - should be the direct route between the points A and B which are to be linked.

Now, anybody with even a rudimentary knowledge of public transport would look at the design of the interconnector - with its quite marked southerly loop via St. Stephen's Green - and would expect to see some explanation for this.

Yet, as I have pointed out ad nauseam, no facts or figures have ever been produced to justify construction of this longer, more expensive, circuitous loop via St. Stephen's Green, apart from this loop enabling interchange with the Luas at that location. Clearly this will be possible at other locations in the future, when the Luas link-up is built.

(And even if a more directly-routed interconnector were to precede construction of the Luas link-up, we do at least know that it has been identified by the RPA as a doable project, so eventual interchange should be quite straightforward at a central location, like College Green).

The justification for deviating from construction of the starting route, i.e. a shorter, cheaper, more direct route which would have equal connectivity with the Luas and would, based on the available figures, bring more people to where they want to go, has quite simply never been presented.

This is the salient point which you have avoided. And neither you, nor any of the official organisations involved in this project (such as the DTO, CIE or the DOT), have ever produced any figures which justify deviation from a direct route between the aforementioned points A and B - which would most likely go through somewhere like College Green.

If you or one of those organisations could produce those figures, it would be very helpful, but the fact that they haven't been produced so far does not augur well.
SeamusOG
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby SeamusOG » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:17 am

But I will now try and deal with most of the rest of your points, as best I can.

PVC King wrote:You are far from starting with a clean slate; the object of the Interconnector line is not to start afresh it is to remove the loopline blockage and connect 4 principal rail corridors and 2 Luas lines all of which exist and will dramatically enhanced.


I disagree, and I am very familiar with the object of the interconnector.

To a very large extent the city is starting with a clean slate in that there are currently a number of number of disparate elements in existence but also large parts of the city which are very remote from anything other than the bus. The interconnector helps to link these disparate elements together but should also, if the development of many other cities is anything to go by, be a starting point from which other public transport developments (particularly to areas currently served only by the bus) could eventually take place.

PVC King wrote:You over play climate the city boomed from 1994-2005 sustainably with the weather and without any connection and the real win will be for two groups of people firstly those who are on crush loaded trains or can't get onto same and secondly those from the Western suburbs who have to change onto crush loaded Luas and to date no longer have to do the Luas walk from Abbey Street but now can interchange.


In fairness PVC, just because the city boomed in those circumstances is irrelevant. Dublin should be aiming to build a decent public transport system, not one where we see a DART station at St. Stephen's Green as "serving" locations like Adelaide Road, Fitzwilliam Place, Harcourt Road, etc. As you said yourself, people wishing to get to Adelaide Road would probably change onto the Luas, I'm saying that people who wish to get to Fitzwilliam Place probably would eventually do the same (unless the weather's very nice).

I've said it before that there is no point building a longer, more expensive route if the reasons for making it longer will have to be superseded by other developments (such as a Luas line heading in the direction of Leeson Street or Baggot Street Bridge) which will need to happen if Dublin is eventually to have a decent transport network.

With your points about crush loaded trains I get the distinct impression you are trying to persuade me of the merits of the interconnector. I don't need to be persuaded of that, and never have. I just don't see the merits of St. Stephen's Green as a location on the route. It has its part to play as a position on the eventual network, but there are a number of very serious problems with it.

Chiefly, demand to get to the most notable areas of Georgian Dublin and places like Adelaide Road dies completely after about 9:30 a.m. on weekdays and is non-existent at weekends. Demand to get from those areas, also non-existent at weekends, really comprises just 2-3 hours in the late afternoon/early evening. So for the lion's share of the week it is effectively like the southside DART line, with no catchment area on one side of the line.

On the other hand the area around College Green would appear to be busy all the time, with a nice wide, consistently busy catchment area on both sides of the line.

In other words, the direct route, seemingly busier, and thus far no figures to justify deviation from it.

PVC King wrote:I have no idea how you can assert that longer pedestrian journeys will assist commuters. I've never seen a pedestrian section on a transport map before like the Luas bridge; I have also had sight of passengers being challenged by ticket inspectors because 'it wasn't credible that it took them so long to get from one line to the other'


Sorry PVC, where did I assert that longer pedestrian journeys will assist commuters? I'm puzzled.

PVC King wrote:From College Green to the North is Red Luas and to the South Interconnector and the Luas link up intersects the two; throw in Tara Street and you have a number of options that Bank tube in London would be proud of. You forget that a move to zonal ticketing will mean that people will be able to interchange without paying an additional cost each time once they are on daily, weekly, Monthly or annual tickets.

Why build both East West corridors so close together; are you saying a third will then be built?


You've got to remember that the capacity of the interconnector is vast and, in comparison, the capacity of the Red line is effectively irrelevant. The interconnector is a rapid rail line which will be capable of delivering large amounts of people rapidly into and out of the city. There is, in my opinion, no point building the wrong route for the interconnector just because a more central route might in some way interfere with what is going on on a fairly slow, low-capacity tram line.

And no, I'm not saying a third one will then be built. Why would it?:confused: Dublin's not such a big city that a central east-west interconnector in combination with the existing DART and a few Luas/Metro lines running broadly from the northside to the southside shouldn't be able to cater for most needs.

The red line might have a role to play in such a scenario, but as a form of rapid mass transit - largely irrelevant.

PVC King wrote:No the justification is that Stephens Green is the commercial centre point of Dublin; you need some technical justification to claim otherwise.


Figures, please.

I have at least referenced the bus route figures and the O'Reilly Consultants metro report.

You've produced no figures, but then, in fairness to you, neither have any of the organisations involved in this project.

But I'd certainly like to see them. And not the figures for this mythical extended St. Stephen's Green about which most proponents of the circuitous route seem to be talking about, i.e., all of Georgian Dublin between the Green and the Canal, Adelaide Road, Charlemont Street, Harcourt Road, Harrington Street, etc.

I'd like to see figures for an area within, say, 500 metres of all the entrances of the proposed St. Stephen's Green interconnector station - as I've pointed out, places beyond that will need to be served by other public transport developments (such as Luas extensions) in the future, if Dublin is to have a decent transport network on a par with other cities.

So, to reiterate, not figures for the extended St. Stephen's Green.

PVC King wrote:As anyone who knows me will say I have taken a far from orthodox route to arrive where I am; having worked as a base controller for a top 3 bicycle courier company whilst in College I am acutely aware of where a very large cross section of commercial occupiers are; one also gets a feeling of where those clients did their meetings etc. There is no dispute that Grafton St as anchored by the St Green SC is the retail core; no question that St Green/ Dawson St is the office core. College Green is the tourist core and if traffic calmed has the potential to be a set piece to rival some of the best in Europe as a public open space; funnelling further development into this sensitive area would not be helpful.


Well, you're saying that there is no dispute. But we're dealing with the highest capacity line ever to be built across Dublin.

So, figures, please.

And do remember, that as a central interconnector route would have a role to play on both the northside and the southside, given the catchment area around College Green (or a location in its vicinity), when you're working out stuff about office cores, retail cores, tourist cores, etc.

As for development, the only development which I am advocating is an underground interchange in or near, but preferably in, College Green.

Something similar to the interchange in, for example, Munich's Marienplatz. Dig it up, put in the interchange, cover it over, then it can be nicely tucked away under a splendid pedestrianised area but still capable of delivering vast numbers of people right into the centre, and distributing them to areas in the centre and non-central areas.

The city centre is already there, it doesn't really need to be further developed.

PVC King wrote:The An Lar maintality is exactly the problem with Dublin Bus; no 14/15 Bus should go any further than Harcourt Street once Luas is linked no 51 bus should be going further in than Hueston the thinking needs to become multi-modal. The strategy on London's Oxford St of reducing bus traffic 10% yoy is a good one the improvements to the pedestrian environment are just about tangiable after 1 year after 5 they will be very real and this for Dublin could be acheived gradually without a big bang inconvenience to DB users.


This is all very well for what the situation should be when other public transport developments, such as the Luas link-up, have happened. The An Lar mentality arose because they didn't, or haven't, and the bus figures I referred to were based on a city where the necessary public transport developments hadn't - and largely still haven't - happened. The situation should of course be changed when they do.
SeamusOG
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby PVC King » Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:30 am

Seamus O'G wrote:
I disagree, and I am very familiar with the object of the interconnector.

To a very large extent the city is starting with a clean slate in that there are currently a number of number of disparate elements in existence but also large parts of the city which are very remote from anything other than the bus. The interconnector helps to link these disparate elements together but should also, if the development of many other cities is anything to go by, be a starting point from which other public transport developments (particularly to areas currently served only by the bus) could eventually take place.


This route is almost the final piece of the jigsaw there are no proposals for other new rail lines; it is designed purely to funnel capacity from existing elements of the system into a mix areas some fully developed such as Stephens Green and Christchurch, some half completed such as the North and South Docklands and some seriously underdeveloped such as Heuston and Inchicore. Yes there will be additional expenditure on electrification of the Kildare and Maynooth lines but make no mistake as far as underground goes this is the end game for at least another 10 years.


Seamus O'G wrote:In fairness PVC, just because the city boomed in those circumstances is irrelevant. Dublin should be aiming to build a decent public transport system, not one where we see a DART station at St. Stephen's Green as "serving" locations like Adelaide Road, Fitzwilliam Place, Harcourt Road, etc. As you said yourself, people wishing to get to Adelaide Road would probably change onto the Luas, I'm saying that people who wish to get to Fitzwilliam Place probably would eventually do the same (unless the weather's very nice).


As stated above Stephens Green is a walk but College Green a trek from all these locations.

Seamus O'G wrote:I've said it before that there is no point building a longer, more expensive route if the reasons for making it longer will have to be superseded by other developments (such as a Luas line heading in the direction of Leeson Street or Baggot Street Bridge) which will need to happen if Dublin is eventually to have a decent transport network.

With your points about crush loaded trains I get the distinct impression you are trying to persuade me of the merits of the interconnector. I don't need to be persuaded of that, and never have. I just don't see the merits of St. Stephen's Green as a location on the route. It has its part to play as a position on the eventual network, but there are a number of very serious problems with it.


The cost implications of using Stephens Green and not College Green are not large; there would be a similar length tunnel as any tunnel has to surface North of Newcommen Junction (East Wall) to acheive physical seperation between the Northern and Maynooth Lines; the number of stations would be identical i.e. Stephens Green substituted for College Green, Pearse for Tara St and Spencer Dock for Connolly.

Seamus O'G wrote:Chiefly, demand to get to the most notable areas of Georgian Dublin and places like Adelaide Road dies completely after about 9:30 a.m. on weekdays and is non-existent at weekends. Demand to get from those areas, also non-existent at weekends, really comprises just 2-3 hours in the late afternoon/early evening. So for the lion's share of the week it is effectively like the southside DART line, with no catchment area on one side of the line.

On the other hand the area around College Green would appear to be busy all the time, with a nice wide, consistently busy catchment area on both sides of the line.

In other words, the direct route, seemingly busier, and thus far no figures to justify deviation from it.


Look at an Ariel shot of Stephens Green West and compare same with College Green The urban grain clearly shows that the land around Stephens Green is significantly more intensively used following redevelopment. Public transport is not about counting drunks at 3am it is about getting commuters to and from work to pay their mortgages.


Seamus O'G wrote:Sorry PVC, where did I assert that longer pedestrian journeys will assist commuters? I'm puzzled.



You've got to remember that the capacity of the interconnector is vast and, in comparison, the capacity of the Red line is effectively irrelevant. The interconnector is a rapid rail line which will be capable of delivering large amounts of people rapidly into and out of the city. There is, in my opinion, no point building the wrong route for the interconnector just because a more central route might in some way interfere with what is going on on a fairly slow, low-capacity tram line.


Simply because you seem to think that journey times to Adelaide Rd / Fitz Place are so important; if you are right then what is wrong with building Metro North as planned in as far as DCU; going on street from there and if in the highly unlikely event that delivery of the 'sacred elements' of the Dublin Transport plan as per their geographical footprint were not successful then building the construction of the second part of one element Metro North i.e. the expensive phase to connect DCU and Luas Green could be acheived in a much more meaningful way i.e. meeting the Green line at say Ranelagh in 10 - 20 years time via College Green , Stephens Green, Fitzwilliam Square done at Wilton Place on Heritage grounds and to bring it closer to Upp Baggot St, Burlington Rd etc. I have no doubt that IC will work perfectly but by deferal of the outsized cost sections of MN then insurance is created for your doubts.

Seamus O'G wrote:And no, I'm not saying a third one will then be built. Why would it?:confused: Dublin's not such a big city that a central east-west interconnector in combination with the existing DART and a few Luas/Metro lines running broadly from the northside to the southside shouldn't be able to cater for most needs.

The red line might have a role to play in such a scenario, but as a form of rapid mass transit - largely irrelevant.


Any capacity is relevant and to concentrate all capacity in a narrow corridor that would be a mere 500m apart for the entire routing from Heuston to Connolly would be a very narrow view and to the detriment of offices areas further south.

Seamus O'G wrote:Figures, please.

I have at least referenced the bus route figures and the O'Reilly Consultants metro report.

You've produced no figures, but then, in fairness to you, neither have any of the organisations involved in this project.

But I'd certainly like to see them. And not the figures for this mythical extended St. Stephen's Green about which most proponents of the circuitous route seem to be talking about, i.e., all of Georgian Dublin between the Green and the Canal, Adelaide Road, Charlemont Street, Harcourt Road, Harrington Street, etc.

I'd like to see figures for an area within, say, 500 metres of all the entrances of the proposed St. Stephen's Green interconnector station - as I've pointed out, places beyond that will need to be served by other public transport developments (such as Luas extensions) in the future, if Dublin is to have a decent transport network on a par with other cities.

So, to reiterate, not figures for the extended St. Stephen's Green.


When the reality on the ground in terms of development patterns why do a Metro West in terms of spending taxpayer funds to examine the obvious; development patterns exist in south Dublin 2 they never did for Metro West. As previously posted; there are a long list of large commercial buildings in the vicinity of Stephens Green taking just St Green SC and the BoSI office building which in itself probably provides as much commercial space as a 3 minute walk of college Green excluding the Central bank which is itself a punishing 5 minute walk from the Luas Red Line.

Seamus O'G wrote:Well, you're saying that there is no dispute. But we're dealing with the highest capacity line ever to be built across Dublin.

So, figures, please.

And do remember, that as a central interconnector route would have a role to play on both the northside and the southside, given the catchment area around College Green (or a location in its vicinity), when you're working out stuff about office cores, retail cores, tourist cores, etc.

As for development, the only development which I am advocating is an underground interchange in or near, but preferably in, College Green.

Something similar to the interchange in, for example, Munich's Marienplatz. Dig it up, put in the interchange, cover it over, then it can be nicely tucked away under a splendid pedestrianised area but still capable of delivering vast numbers of people right into the centre, and distributing them to areas in the centre and non-central areas.

The city centre is already there, it doesn't really need to be further developed.


Lets have 2 portals on in the BoI banking Hall at 2 College Green and the other in TCD; this is not an area to dig up; Luas BX with a third rail versus suspending wiring would be a sufficient intervention. Anything else would be problematic.

Seamus O'G wrote:This is all very well for what the situation should be when other public transport developments, such as the Luas link-up, have happened. The An Lar mentality arose because they didn't, or haven't, and the bus figures I referred to were based on a city where the necessary public transport developments hadn't - and largely still haven't - happened. The situation should of course be changed when they do.


You have a lot more faith in DB to change than I; I largely agree with your analysis of the origins but see that it will take a very firm hand to shake DB up into a team player versus a self interest group.
PVC King
 

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