Interconnector aka DART underground

Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby PVC King » Wed May 19, 2010 1:44 pm

I'm astounded; a question with a point from the resident board spammer.

No as it did not feature in the Dublin Rail Plan

I think looking at MN from a sum of its parts approach would be useful

1. Spur to Dublin Airpot c €500m
2. Spur to Swords c€250m
3. Luas to Ballymun c€500m
4. Park n Ride North Dublin = 2,600 * 15,000 c €40m

Total €1.29bn

The cost if it can be really acheived for €1.7bn is €410m more expensive; however once it is operationally efficient to point that the operational subvention is at the lower end of subvention norms then it is an acceptable. There are however four major caveats that need to be addressed.

1. The €1.7bn would need to be actual cost payable by way of the normal S-Curve distribution funding model and not some exotic funding structure that pays a spread above sovereign rates

2. That the passenger numbers would need to be stress tested to a recessionary loading i.e. at about 21-23m pax to see what the annual operational loss would be.

3. That a €100 - €200 per square meter development levy be placed on all development within 1km of the route for the next 20 years including domestic extensions to make up the €410m shortfall.

4. That the funding environment would permit both Metro North and the Interconnector which is a far more strategically valuable and necessary project.

We will soon see if the RPA have been able to leverage the poor construction pmi conditions or were over-optimistic in their ability to mask the true folly of the original costings.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby sash » Wed May 19, 2010 3:15 pm

Coming in at the end of this argument with a quick and slightly irrelevant question....has anyone been to Nice lately? They have built the exact same system as the Luas in recent years...it's running through the old city, in fact it runs straight through the main central historic square in the city, and it links large areas together. It took a couple of years to build and the whole lot was done at once.
It connects the suburbs, the colleges, the train station (gare SNCF) the historic part of the city, and the bus station. It ties in with numerous bus stops all over the city. Each end is accessible to the main motorway running along the length of the Riveria, the A8. There's an integrated ticketing system for buses and trains and trams where you can top up your card online.I don't think this tram system is even 4 years old yet.
We have a lot to learn.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby ac1976 » Wed May 19, 2010 3:22 pm

sash wrote:Coming in at the end of this argument with a quick and slightly irrelevant question....has anyone been to Nice lately? They have built the exact same system as the Luas in recent years...it's running through the old city, in fact it runs straight through the main central historic square in the city, and it links large areas together. It took a couple of years to build and the whole lot was done at once.
It connects the suburbs, the colleges, the train station (gare SNCF) the historic part of the city, and the bus station. It ties in with numerous bus stops all over the city. Each end is accessible to the main motorway running along the length of the Riveria, the A8. There's an integrated ticketing system for buses and trains and trams where you can top up your card online.I don't think this tram system is even 4 years old yet.
We have a lot to learn.


And they have a single ticket price of EUR1
And there are no over-head lines in main square and typical journeys are just a few km
This line was not designed for people in Aix-sur-mer or other satellite towns to sit on for 50 mins to go to "town" they have railyways for that kind of thing.
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Nice Tramway

Postby green_jesus » Wed May 19, 2010 3:38 pm

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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby PVC King » Wed May 19, 2010 4:38 pm

Great link it really does display that light rail and period architecture can co-exist once the overhead wiring system is well done. And the weather in Nice; i'm now drooling :p

AC makes a very pertinent point re the pricing matrix for fares on the system; there is no way that cheap fares are going to be part of the deal as the money simply isn't there to subsidise mass transit in the way that some other countries do.

One of the key advantages that the interconnector will have is its ability to rely heavily on the existing station network; which will be all heavy rail. It will be interesting to see the estimated cost base for the interconnector section of the network which clearly must be established prior to the metro north project even being contemplated. The last thing Irish public transport needs is an overscaled management contract for the proposed Metro North line eating up a budget that is required to run public transport across all major urban centres.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby cgcsb » Wed May 19, 2010 6:44 pm

spurs ro the airport and Swords are impossible due to capacity constraints, end of.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby PVC King » Wed May 19, 2010 10:05 pm

Do you have anything more technical to back that up as opposed to the very mancunian 'end of' line?

Irish Rail in their Dublin Rail plan were able to make the airport spur work; the claim is therefore nothing new and grounded in scoping done by their qualified engineers.

On Swords you couldn't be further wrong; by grade seperating a spur to Swords you would in fact add capacity as trains would leave the tracks on the correct side as opposed to the current arrangements which involve trains crossing tracks which requires safety gaps in the timetables of both tracks.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby cgcsb » Wed May 19, 2010 11:34 pm

PVC King wrote:Do you have anything more technical to back that up as opposed to the very mancunian 'end of' line?

Irish Rail in their Dublin Rail plan were able to make the airport spur work; the claim is therefore nothing new and grounded in scoping done by their qualified engineers.

On Swords you couldn't be further wrong; by grade seperating a spur to Swords you would in fact add capacity as trains would leave the tracks on the correct side as opposed to the current arrangements which involve trains crossing tracks which requires safety gaps in the timetables of both tracks.


At present the northern line is operating at capacity, The DART rail resignaling plan will provide an extra 4 train paths per hour on the line when complete in 2011, and that's it. 4 extra trains per hour is all that can be safely introcuced to the northern line, completely insufficient capacity, the viaduct at Malahide is a bottle neck, but it's by no means the only capacity issue on the Northern Line.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby PVC King » Thu May 20, 2010 7:22 am

I agree that the issue centres on a blockage at a viaduct but that post interconnector and if the at grade reversals were removed from Malahide then the viaduct that is the blockage would be the Victorian 'Loopline' running from Connolly to Pearse which is the only section of the network which suffers from the vexed 3 routings into 2 lines issue.

As explained the addition of grade seperation to divert trains towards Swords would in fact create capacity; if this were also to be done at Howth Junction even more capacity could be created by removing yet another 'timetable gap' required on health and safety grounds.


The timetable on the northern line and DART is also somewhat unweildy; the idea that every DART stops at every station between Connolly and Malahide/Howth and that Northern commuter services skip every station between Clontarf Rd and Kilbarrick is also somewhat flawed. To say that Raheny or Harmonstown needs a 3-4 minute service post IC is flawed. If trains to Drogheda stopped and served two of these stations and if DART to Airport and Malahide and Howth each skipped one or two stations then the 'gap times' required on these routings would fall allowing a higher number of trains per hour. Yes this would increase journey times on the outer suburban routes by 2-3 mins but if compensated by additional stations such as Stephens Green and Christchurch then it is a net gain not to mention that they might actually get the seat they paid for.

In a perfect funding environment you would build the metro regardless of cost, quad track the Northern line and Maynooth line but this is not even an average funding environment; it is the most constrained funding environment since the creation of the state; make no mistake there is a divergence in credit markets between the haves and the have nots in the Eurozone and Ireland for the forseeable future will be a have not.

There is a real danger that if the costs of MN exceed €1.7bn and if the operational losses exceed €2 per passenger that the costs could force the mandarins of Merrion St to call time on the Interconnector; which has it would seem not had an EIB application made.

One cannot forget that the blockage that you assert might happen at Malahide already exists it is called the Loopline and existing services will remain crushloaded until such time as it is removed by the Interconnector. Until this blockage is removed then all new routes will need be assessed very much as secondary objectives.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby EIA340600 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:17 pm

A new PDF about the project.

http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/pdf/dartunderground/Missing%20Link%2018pp_11.pdf

Nothing new really, except for some pretty pictures of a shiny heuston station.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby missarchi » Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:09 am

First few pages are fresh n sharpish...
Then it could be metro north - the trains.
Best till last?
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby PVC King » Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:27 am

EIA340600 wrote:A new PDF about the project.

http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/pdf/dartunderground/Missing%20Link%2018pp_11.pdf

Nothing new really, except for some pretty pictures of a shiny heuston station.


There is a little more detail on the rationale of moving the tunnel slightly further out to Inchicore but other than that there is little new detail. When a case for support is so clear cut do you need to keep reinventing the wheel?
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby PVC King » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:31 am

Underground DART application to be lodged
Wednesday, 30 June 2010 07:14
Iarnród Éireann will today lodge its application to build Dublin's Underground DART designed to link-up the city's transportation system.

Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey has consistently said that the Underground DART and Metro North will both go ahead despite a combined cost of around €5bn.

The application to An Bord Pleanála for the Underground DART comes as the board prepares to give its decision, expected by the end of next month, on Metro North, which will run from the city centre to Swords.

AdvertisementThe Underground DART, or Interconnector, has been described as the most important part of Transport 21

Running from the Docklands to Heuston Station and Inchicore it will allow rail passengers from Cork to connect to Belfast

It will open up two DART lines, one running from Balbriggan to Kildare the other from Maynooth to Bray intersecting at Pearse Street Station

The Underground DART will also link with Metro North at St Stephen's Green, with the Inter-city lines at Heuston and with the LUAS.

Like the Metro North it will be a public-private partnership and the Government will not have to pay for its construction until it is completed as planned in 2018.

Dublin Chamber of Commerce has called on the Minister for Transport to publicly commit financially to the project's completion.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0630/transport.html


The markets clearly will see through the attempt to keep the cost off balance sheet until the first 2018 payment date. Given the critical nature of this project why can't it simply be financed in the usual way i.e. tender the construction and pay for it via government bonds and the EIB......

I sense a desperate effort to try to make MN look respectable by imposing an unworkable structure on this project to try to make both projects look as similar as to be the same. They aren't and by linking this viable and vital project to a light rail route at a multi-billion cost the case for IC is being weakened
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby ac1976 » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:27 am

There is NO money allocated to this!
Dempsey already met the EIB last year to seek funding for this but he only got 500M for MN and not a cent for DARTu!

Even the banks dont have 5bn to lend out for the construction by a PPP, the only possible source is soverign debt, plain as that. So this is going nowhere for now.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby Paul Clerkin » Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:04 pm

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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby ac1976 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:18 pm

It appears IE have taken on board the concerns of residents in Railway Estate in Inchicore. Both tunnels will be bored east to west from CIE lands at East Wall, rather than one in each direction.

This rubbishes one of the main reasons they extended the original plan to tunnell from Heuston station and extended this to Inchicore Works, as Heuston was said to be too challanging as a portal location.
So why not save a billion or so and remove nearly 3km of tunnel and go as far as heuston as originally planned?

Maybe they could get it done for 2016 if they did that too.

Quoting RTE
"On 13 May 2010, a spokesman for Irish Rail said the original timeframe of 2015 had been set in 2007 when the line was due to terminate at Heuston Station. The subsequent decision to extend it to Inchicore meant there would be 40 per cent more tunnelling than had been proposed. This means that the new timeframe is to complete the project by end of 2018" - http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0505/dart.html

Obviously there is the difficult (but no as difficult as tunnelling) problem of the quad-tracking:
"- The extension removes the requirement to increase the number of tracks between Inchicore and Heuston to meet the underground line, which would have required significant property acquisitions and would cause serious disruption to residents, as well as road and rail users. "
This is over-stated as Irish Rail wanted to do this from day one and changed their minds when they saw the limitless budget.
Surely it would cost less? 40% less tunnell and a couple less years work would save billions.
"- The extension of the tunnel to Inchicore would dramatically reduce the impact of the tunnel’s development on existing rail services during the construction phase, by avoiding the crucial Heuston area "
http://www.transport21.ie/MEDIA/Press_Releases/DART_Underground_-_Tunnel_to_be_extended_to_Inchicore.html

There is also the conflict of interest in Irish Rail adding on a Framework Development Plan to their lands in Inchicore Works, surely this creates a bias and is part of the reasoning to tunnell this far and even though the benefits of the capital appreciation of the land are FAR FAR less than the costs, Irish Rail see this cost as free since its not them funding it, it's an extraordinary waste of money to add 40% more tunnell for no good reason.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby Andrew Duffy » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:54 am

ac1976 wrote:Surely it would cost less? 40% less tunnell and a couple less years work would save billions.[/url]


I doubt it. Portals and the tunnel boring machines are significant costs when tunnelling that are unrelated to the length, and the price of city centre land, even back gardens, is crippling - consider the cost of the Green Luas line, which runs largely on an existing alignment that many owners had legally adversely posessed. It is also likely that widening a surface alignment in a cutting would result in long closures of the line due to safety concerns - a cutting embankment collapsing on a live railway would be disastrous.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby PVC King » Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:12 pm

I totally understand where AC is coming from on this; cash is ultra tight; but wish to add two points; Andrew is spot on in terms of the constrained nature of the required landtake for the surface option i.e. left is the chocolate factory which couldn't be cpo'd on practicality grounds and right is the main road from the CC to the South and West of the Country.

Secondly the tunnel extension will not have any underground structures which is where the real cost comes in; there is a massive difference in cost between a tunnel bore and lined tunnel as compared to having to put in platforms, escalators, lifts, concourses etc.
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby missarchi » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:52 am

looking forward to seeing the renders models and photos
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby ac1976 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:41 pm



Thats hilarious.

I'm not sure if people realize that the project is currently scheduled to be complete at the END of 2018, however this is just the construction phase, after that there will be some week or months of testing before the Railway Safety Certificate is issued and the line opens.

I's guess that the actual service is currently scheduled to begin in spring 2019
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby ac1976 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:44 pm

c
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Re: Interconnector aka DART underground

Postby missarchi » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:54 pm

I don't see how you can calculate the cost.
PPP is private the public have no right to know and who in there right mind has the resources to audit a 30 year contract and variable interest rates...
So you would have to wait 30 years to claim your prize? by which time compound interest matching inflation would be a better option? you may as well throw your money away.
Completion date is another matter!

hmm maybe i'm missing something.
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