HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby allison1707 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:53 pm

Hi All,
I recently applied for pp for a 2 bed detached house on an infill site in D12. My house is semi-detached and I wanted to put a sm detached house in side garden. I was refused pp yesterday due to the following

" 1.The proposed development by reason of the significant reduction of the area of private open space to serve the existing dwellinghouse on site and the provision of an inadequate area of private open space ot both the existing and proposed dwellings on site, fails to protect, provide or improve residential amenities and therefore would result in the creation of a substandard residentioa environment. The proposed development would therefore be contrary to the zoning objective and development standards of DCDP 2005-11 and the DOE Guidelines for Planning authorities on Residential Density, thus would seriously injure the amenities of the area and would be contrary to eh proper planning and sustainable development of the area."

Please can anyone explain the above to me in plain english as I thought that the minimum required standards for a 2 Bed house were,
Minimum Floor Area 65sq.m ( the new house would be 70sq.m)
Minimum Private Open Space by way of side/rear garden is a standard of 15 sq.m per bedspace
(New 2bed house would have 31.0sq.m and the existing house would get 41.0sq.m)

Am I after reading it all wrong? Is bedspace different to bedrooms? as in if the planner has considered one of the bedrooms to be a double bedroom does that mean i would need 45sq m?

Im very confused so any help would be much appreciated. Also would it be worth my while to appeal this decision as the neighbour directly facing me has been granted permission for an similar 2Bed but their back garden is divided up into 38sq m and 38sq m?

Thank you all

Allison1707
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby henno » Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:13 pm

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Planning/FileDownLoad,1611,en.pdf

Have a look at the above document, pay attention paragrpahs 5.8 and 5.9.

The minimum standards you are refering to are generally applicable to apartments and not houses. in apartments there needs to be a certain amount of communal open space as well.

pay attention to this paragraph....

"All houses (terraced, semi-detached, detached) should have an area of private open space
behind the building line. In general the requirement should be 60 - 75m2 minimum for
3/4/5 bedroom houses in order to ensure that most household activities are
accommodated and that it is at the same time adequate to offer visual delight, receive
some sunshine and encourage plant growth. A slightly reduced standard may be
acceptable where 1 and 2 bedroom houses are proposed but in no instance should a
figure of less than 48m2 per dwelling be acceptable"


therefor ethe existing at 41 and proposed at 31 both do not meet recommended MINIMUM standards.
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby allison1707 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:25 pm

I saw that too but why did my neighbour get planning permission for the exact same development, and his private space is only 38sq. m?
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby henno » Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:55 pm

allison1707 wrote:I saw that too but why did my neighbour get planning permission for the exact same development, and his private space is only 38sq. m?



thats the age old question, i wouldnt have an answer for that.
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:05 pm

henno wrote:http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Planning/FileDownLoad,1611,en.pdf

Have a look at the above document, pay attention paragrpahs 5.8 and 5.9.

The minimum standards you are refering to are generally applicable to apartments and not houses. in apartments there needs to be a certain amount of communal open space as well.

pay attention to this paragraph....

"All houses (terraced, semi-detached, detached) should have an area of private open space
behind the building line. In general the requirement should be 60 - 75m2 minimum for
3/4/5 bedroom houses in order to ensure that most household activities are
accommodated and that it is at the same time adequate to offer visual delight, receive
some sunshine and encourage plant growth. A slightly reduced standard may be
acceptable where 1 and 2 bedroom houses are proposed but in no instance should a
figure of less than 48m2 per dwelling be acceptable"


therefor ethe existing at 41 and proposed at 31 both do not meet recommended MINIMUM standards.


DCC brought out a change to the development plan in December that they now use to deliberate on apartment applications:

Generally a 2 bedroom house would be considered to have 4 bedspaces. In apartments, for example a bedroom of between 7.1 and 11.4 sqm (excluding storage) is a single bed - 1 bedspace, 11.4 - 13 is a double bed - 2 bedspaces. Over that is technically 3 bedspaces if they so choose.

Typically 2bed D12 semis are 3-4 bedspaces. Assuming your new scheme is the same you'd need 6-8 bedspaces. At 12-15sqm each you'd need anything from 72 - 120sqm for the 2 schemes. If the new house has 2 double beds, however, you'd need 84sqm min

I tried to do what you are doing but failed as I couldn't get a downstairs jacks for Part M. Private open space was no problem as one house got the back garden and the other got the front garden
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby allison1707 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:09 pm

I would but i wouldnt lower myself to publicly speak the obsenities that are floating around my head! Isnt the whole planning process just a joy :)

I think the above mimimum sq.m requirments mean that i am in trouble and can scrap any further plans that I might have to build anything, as my back garden now seems unlikely to support any development what so ever.

I really thought that the sq m for houses was 15sq m per bedroom. You learn something new everyday.

Thanks all the same :)
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby allison1707 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:16 pm

Sorry just catching up on the previous post,
What do you mean about one getting the front garden and another getting the Back garden?
I have front garden of 79sq.m for the existing house and 52sq.m front garden for the new house then the 41sq m back garden for old and 31sq m for new. Any help?
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:41 pm

allison1707 wrote:Sorry just catching up on the previous post,
What do you mean about one getting the front garden and another getting the Back garden?
I have front garden of 79sq.m for the existing house and 52sq.m front garden for the new house then the 41sq m back garden for old and 31sq m for new. Any help?


including or excluding car parking?
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby allison1707 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:50 pm

Sorry for tardy reply.

Excluding Parking space.
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:36 pm

allison1707 wrote:Sorry for tardy reply.

Excluding Parking space.


Private open space for houses is usually provided
by way of private gardens to the rear or side of the
house. A standard of 15 sq. m. of open space per
bedspace will normally be applied. There is currently
no minimum length of rear garden but a 20m
separation between opposing windows at first floor
level and above will normally be required. This may
be relaxed if it can be clearly demonstrated that the
development is designed in such a way as to
preserve the amenities and privacy of adjoining
occupiers. In certain developments a combination of
private and semi-private spaces may be provided,
to include communal landscaped areas such as
courtyards.
Where on street parking is provided in lieu of front
gardens a landscaped strip with a minimum depth
of 2m will be required to the front of each house.

checked the old scheme and, yeah sorry, I managed to get everything out the back and side as above- it was bigger than the usual end triangle
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby allison1707 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:49 pm

Yea just as i thought i got it all wrong! What threw me was the 15sq.m per bed space and i presumed that that would be 30 sq m for a 2bed etc so no wonder the planners told me no. I was presuming that due to the prescedent of my directly oposing neighbour being sucessful in his application for the same 2bed, altho he only has 38sq m out his back, and the front is identical to mine, that i would be in with a greater shout with my application. Back down to earth with a bang for me today. Typical luck. Ah well. Thanks for your advice and explainations.
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby allison1707 » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:26 pm

Oh also I forgot to mention that I havent included the side entrance for both houses even though its tiny, would that make any difference?

I would have a combined back garden of 72sq m which using the 12sq m per bedspace would be spot on but using the 15sq m area I would need another 18sq m! I dont think my side is 6sq m let alone 18!! bummer!

Any1 any opions on wether it would be worth my while appealing to bord plenala based on the neighbours approval with his 38sq m per 2 bed? If i redo my plans to share my 72sq m equally (36) and include the shared side entrance between both houses, this should bring me up to 38sq m each. Any one any ideas?

Ive also just looked at some previous planning decisions in the d12 area and one has caught my eye. An application for 2 new houses, one terraced and one end of terrace, were their private open spaces were 37m2 and 25m2 respectively. This pp was granted.

Seriously confused now!

Thanks all :)
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby henno » Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:11 pm

why not just show two single bed rooms.....

as internal alterations are exempt from planning permission.
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby allison1707 » Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:50 pm

Can I do that? Do 2 beds not have to be of a certain size? If not that sounds too good to be true as i could have two single bedrooms and a bigger bathroom upstairs?

So can I alter the plans now and go back to DCoCo or go straight to an bord plenala with the new bedroom sizes and equally divided back gardens?

DCoCoas only refused on 1 point and if i resubmit new plans will they look at it the same way or consider it as new and take all comments on board once again (neighbour objected)?

Thanks again :)
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:42 pm

henno wrote:why not just show two single bed rooms.....

as internal alterations are exempt from planning permission.


careful now - don't forget the floor area cert. It would have to be marketed and sold as 2 single bedrooms
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby henno » Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:55 pm

wearnicehats wrote:careful now - don't forget the floor area cert. It would have to be marketed and sold as 2 single bedrooms


isnt the floor area cert done on the basis of whats constructed?... what im suggesting is showing 2 single bedrooms for planning, and moving internal walls when constructing to include larger bedrooms..... it may not be proper but it is still legal.
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby tommyt » Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:37 pm

allison1707 wrote:Oh also I forgot to mention that I havent included the side entrance for both houses even though its tiny, would that make any difference?

I would have a combined back garden of 72sq m which using the 12sq m per bedspace would be spot on but using the 15sq m area I would need another 18sq m! I dont think my side is 6sq m let alone 18!! bummer!

Any1 any opions on wether it would be worth my while appealing to bord plenala based on the neighbours approval with his 38sq m per 2 bed? If i redo my plans to share my 72sq m equally (36) and include the shared side entrance between both houses, this should bring me up to 38sq m each. Any one any ideas?

Ive also just looked at some previous planning decisions in the d12 area and one has caught my eye. An application for 2 new houses, one terraced and one end of terrace, were their private open spaces were 37m2 and 25m2 respectively. This pp was granted.

Seriously confused now!






Thanks all :)


There is no argument in yuor case solely based on precedence as every planning application is unique to the site to which it is applied. Because near neighbours got permission and you didn't is not a strong enoughgrounds for appeal. By all means get the full planning files from Wood Quay and see what criteria were applied in the grant of permission but do not rely upon the decision alone as a strong case for an appeal. If in doubt get someone to read over your neighbours' planning files on your behalf.

I've seen similar decisions in D12 before where people miss out on PP by a whisker due to their driveway being too narrow or whatever. Goes with the natureof the original buildings around there. There should be some design solution to build some kind of additional dwelling on site as policy supports it- you may need a revised application but do get a professional to look over your complete planning file.
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby wearnicehats » Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:59 pm

henno wrote:isnt the floor area cert done on the basis of whats constructed?... what im suggesting is showing 2 single bedrooms for planning, and moving internal walls when constructing to include larger bedrooms..... it may not be proper but it is still legal.


in order to get the cert you have to show compliance with your planning permission. not sure how you plan to do that legally?
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby allison1707 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:36 am

Thanks all.
Tommyt, thanks for the advice. I have 3wks left if I wish to appeal to an bord plenala and i am still considering if it would be worth my while and your comments have helped in swaying me towards to leave the appeal and do more investigating of the site and options for a second try.

On the otherhand, I understand that every site is unique and I do seem to be harping on the point of "they got it so why didnt i", but it just seems weird that our sites are identical and their decisions are so inconsistant. But thats life i suppose.

On your point of getting the full planning files, can these be got for both my application and my neighbours application of 6mts ago? I presume i just ring them?

On getting a pro, the Archi guy who did the innitial pp submission for me, did it as a once off favour as he normaly does not do house plans, so I might be looking for some help with second pp or appeal if he is not interested. Any1 interested?

Thanks a mill for all your advice :)
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby henno » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:47 am

wearnicehats wrote:in order to get the cert you have to show compliance with your planning permission. not sure how you plan to do that legally?


as internal alterations are exempt from planning it is possible, but again, its down to the opinion of the certifier.
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby allison1707 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:57 am

Ok we finally got an answer from the planner who made the decision :eek:

45-48sq m is what we need for both houses according to the DOE of 1999. We dont have it so no PP.

On the house directly facing me, If he was on the case he would not have granted pp the same with all the others in my area.

We dont have enough private back garden space for any development no mater what way we tweek the plans now or in the future. (so dont submit again)

Our only option left is to appeal to an bord plenala. and good luck with that.


Isnt that great news first thing on a monday morning! There goes all my plans. So bascially as you have all told me, altho I was living in hope, tough sxxt the law is the law. Even thought it is outdated!!!! AGH!!!!!

Im not giving up, I will submit an appeal to an bord pleanala on the weak case of precedence and hope they are all going on hols and in such good humour that they ignore the facts and think my pictures are pretty!!!!!

Thanks again

:(
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby tommyt » Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:54 pm

allison1707 wrote:Ok we finally got an answer from the planner who made the decision :eek:

45-48sq m is what we need for both houses according to the DOE of 1999. We dont have it so no PP.

On the house directly facing me, If he was on the case he would not have granted pp the same with all the others in my area.

We dont have enough private back garden space for any development no mater what way we tweek the plans now or in the future. (so dont submit again)

Our only option left is to appeal to an bord plenala. and good luck with that.


Isnt that great news first thing on a monday morning! There goes all my plans. So bascially as you have all told me, altho I was living in hope, tough sxxt the law is the law. Even thought it is outdated!!!! AGH!!!!!

Im not giving up, I will submit an appeal to an bord pleanala on the weak case of precedence and hope they are all going on hols and in such good humour that they ignore the facts and think my pictures are pretty!!!!!

Thanks again

:(

I would still submit an appeal for sure. It will be worth the money to get a further 'steer' on what planning criteria were used to judge your application. It is also possible the DCC planner is applying the Development Plan criteria incorrectly or is too rigid in his interpretation of the same. If you are so close to meeting the open space criteria would it be possible to provide a screened balcony area on the first floor and revise internal layouts?
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:04 am

henno wrote:as internal alterations are exempt from planning .


only as long as they do not contravene a condition of the planning permission.
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Re: HELP!! Private Open Space mimimum sq ft question?

Postby henno » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:22 am

wearnicehats wrote:only as long as they do not contravene a condition of the planning permission.



not necessarily.

the first condition is usually that the development is in accordance with plans and particulars submitted.

however in many cases, article 4.1 (h) of the planning act 2000 is applicable.
"(h) development consisting of the carrying out of works for the maintenance, improvement or other alteration of any structure, being works which affect only the interior of the structure or which do not materially affect the external appearance of the structure so as to render the appearance inconsistent with the character of the structure or of neighbouring structures;"
can be considered exempt.


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0030/sec0004.html#parti-sec4

i can understand that its a bit ambiguous whether the work can be done on construction or if they have to be internal alteraltions after construction, but still, it may be an option.
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