GrahamH wrote:Again, I would dispute how having 'eight new stops' in the city core will benefit the city centre. How? What we're talking about here is the optimum planning scenario in Dublin, where people live in the city and work in the city. Who living in the city is going to use Metro to get to somewhere else in the city in a manner that a Luas or a bus cannot facilitate? The whole point of Metro, aside from its airport linkage, is to develop communities outside the city and drop them en masse in and out everyday. It is not to facilitate movement within the confines of the city centre.
It is the Enterprise Effect. The international train service that supposedly exists to facilitate north-south movement, when in reality demand for it is overwhelmingly one-way - to enable northerners get out of Belfast to Dublin as quickly as possible. The same can be said of Swords. Metro does not facilitate residents of Dublin city.
A network of seven or eight Luas lines for the same price most certainly would.
missarchi wrote:It makes no sense for Dublin to become a tram city outside the canals...
If you push that argument you must draw a line around the city in red and say...
But even if you do the line will get amended and removed and you will fail...
Cathal Dunne wrote:
, it gives Northwood Business park a stop, it serves DCU with a rail connection and it facilitates quick travel from the southside of Town to the northside and vice versa.
PVC King wrote:You miss a number of big pictures; firstly the bigger planning picture i.e. what type of Dublin is wanted going forward and secondly how the bigger planning picture is impacted by the fall out of the Metro North approach to the domestic banking sector between 2002-08 and the resultant inability to raise funds at realistic prices on bond markets.
PVC King wrote:When someone argues that a â‚¬3bn - â‚¬5bn investment is required because it serves a logistics park you know that you are discussing matters with a very dim individual.
You previously stated that DCU was the only university in the country without a rail link; lets look at these universities.
Cork - none
Galway - None
UCD - None
Limerick - None
Belfast - Very long walk from Botanic station
Jordanstown - None
TCD - already served - but by accident and not design.
You miss a number of big pictures; firstly the bigger planning picture i.e. what type of Dublin is wanted going forward and secondly how the bigger planning picture is impacted by the fall out of the Metro North approach to the domestic banking sector between 2002-08 and the resultant inability to raise funds at realistic prices on bond markets.
Cathal Dunne wrote: Au contraire, when you have someone who jumps on the mentioning of one possible use of the line at one station of it as the justification of the whole line they are the truly dim individual. On top of that, if you actually look at the area in which the Northwood stop will be built it is already quite built up and will be increasingly so as the Metro is completed and serves the area. With the M50, Airport and Metro all in close proximity, this area can only grow and grow.
Cathal Dunne wrote: Well whatever about that, Maynooth has a rail connection, Trinity has a connection and DIT at Grangegorman will have a Luas connection. As a Trinity student, I know of many people who use the DART to get to college and benefit greatly from it. This illustrates how valuable a direct rail link to a university is. If anything you've merely emphasised how urgent it is to get every college in Ireland connected to the rail network in some shape or form.
Cathal Dunne wrote: On a related point, you have also failed to respond adequately to my point that if a residential area of similar density to Whitehall/Glasnevin in Maynooth housing a smaller university than DCU can support a heavy-rail line and station then DCU/Whitehall/Glasnevin can support a light-rail line.
In any case, your points about individual stations are nit-picking. The overall catchment area of Metro North is 400,000. Add in the tourists from the airport, those using Metro to connect to something else and all the rest and you have a large and plentiful market for a metro line to serve. Cities with smaller populations and lower densities than Dublin already have metro, we should too.
Cathal Dunne wrote: Your conflation of the banking crisis and Metro North is egregious. Unlike the casinolike carry on of our banks, Metro North is an investment in our future. Unlike the build and borrow now, bother later attitude of developers, Metro North is a long-term project which will serve Irish people for generations.
Cathal Dunne wrote: No, I don't miss the bigger picture as I have regularly referred to other parts of the overall transport plan for the GDA. Once Metros North and West, the DART Underground, Luas BXD, Luas Line F and the Bray extension are built, we will have a public transport network to be proud of. A transport network which reflects Dublin's stature as a European capital city.
PVC King wrote:Warehousing does not provide passengers.
Grangegorman will not be built for a long time; like MN its funding model is busted due to the construction collapse; I did leave out Maynooth which does have a rail connection but what of all the other consituents of NUI plus Limerick, Belfast & UU? DCU has not only survived without a rail line it has thrived.
Of your 400,000 catchment how many are within 1kms of the proposed line?
The banks in many ways had more justification in that they at least had past performance to justify the cost benefit analysis underpinning much of the lending; this project has never been proved to be viable.
Metro West and Luas F have both already been binned as you well know; the Bray extension is a new project I've never heard of and the RPA are not involved in Dart underground.
where the money is coming from .
Cathal Dunne wrote: No, but the people who live just down the road do.
Cathal Dunne wrote: Grangegorman will be built as it contained in the Government's revised capital plan. DCU's growth has been limited by poor transport access. I and many other of my classmates ruled out DCU as a college option because of the requirement to change buses a number of times to get there. With a direct rail link there its growth will be given a great boost. The DCU stop will not only serve the university, but the whole community of Whitehall/Glasnevin.
Cathal Dunne wrote: This point is irrelevant as the Metro links with bus routes at virtually every stop. As I said before about your imagined rural idyll that is Swords people who live near the stops can walk and those who live too far away can get the bus to the Metro and then get on. Anyway, I find it interesting that I am being asked to justify Metro on the basis of people who live right beside it by the same man who dismissed getting the Metro from Drumcondra to O'Connell St. because people should walk the distance.
Cathal Dunne wrote: International consultancies were recruited by the RPA to examine passenger numbers and demand sources for the Luas and they were proved right. The RPA repeated this process with the Metro and there's a good chance they'll be proven right again.
Cathal Dunne wrote: So you're telling us that the ridiculous lending to the likes of Liam Carroll, Sean Dunne, Bernard McNamara et al. to build ghost estates is more viable than a rail link running through our capital city which will benefit us form more than a century? That's mad.
Cathal Dunne wrote: Metro West and Luas F haven't been binned - work is ongoing on these projects and they will be completed as the situation allows it. While the RPA are not managing DART Underground, they are working closely with IarnrÃ³d Ã‰ireann on this project since both of them will have stops at Stephen's Green. Furthermore, the National Transport Agency provides even more linkage between the two projects.
Cathal Dunne wrote: The private consortium given the tender to build it will pay for it 2010-17. We then start paying for our share out of 2017-47 tax receipts. Given that the economy will have recovered by 2017 and will be substantially larger in 2047, that gives us the fiscal basis to afford the â‚¬3-5 billion expended on Metro North.
cgcsb wrote:It was announced in the 2005 Transport 21 plan.
Board approves with condition that if it is not built to upgraded planning and design standards that no more development will be allowed outside 15km - 200km of the city this includes no more car spaces, roads anything for the next 100 years unless 5 proper metro lines are built! (even if they have permission already)
The other condition would be that rates/services/water prices are calculated via logarithmic formulas mtr square of land/floor space less living costs. This would herald a new era of planning and development in Ireland and the true affordable house/office ect.
PVC King wrote:Cherrywood was a good extension it opens up a lot of development potential around Brennanstown and Cherrywood.
PVC King wrote:Now that the Inter-Urban Motorway network is more or less finished only four key projects remain
Luas link up
Electrification of the Maynooth and Hazelhatch lines
Docklands bus station
The country may be mired in debt and unemployment but at least infrastructure has improved dramatically.
I'm sorry but you have just slated Metro North on the basis that it relies on future development potantial, yet you think Cherrywood luas is good BECAUSE it opens up development potential?
PVC King wrote:I looked at the routing of Metro North and slated it because most of the route as far as DCU is under either conservation areas or 3-bed semis so it doesn't have the existing population density or the realistic capacity to be redeveloped to deliver realistic population density; The route between Santry and South of Swords is constrained by the airport diminishing residential demand; Swords is a sprawling mess of mainly 3 bed semis with limited development potential along the 1kms catchment.
cgcsb wrote: The Densities between Stephen's Green and Kings Inn could justify a deep bore tunnel.
dc3 wrote:Curiously little traffic between both points.
dc3 wrote:The Department of Justice will also be more than happy to keep any tunnels well away from Mountjoy Prision environs.
cgcsb wrote:Come now PVC, that's not exactly true is it. The redevlopment of Ballymun represents a major densification of the area, the opening of Ikea, Swords Pavillions phase 3, the development of a new IT and Hospital in Swords and various other proposals for the area are definite possibilities.
Personally I think there's no need for Metro to be underground between Swords and St Mobhi road. I'm not sure if the Phibsbobough Library is protected structure or not. But If not I would prefer the route to be above ground from Swords to a tunnel entrance in the park beside Mobhi rd, a new underground stn at Phibsborough allowing passangers to change onto the Maynooth line, emerge from the tunnel in the green space to the east of mountjoy prison continue through the site of the library, under the North Circular rd.(cut and cover), through the linear park, through the playground at canal bank and deep bore tunnel starting at the grounds of Kings Inn law library, continuing south with a stop at christchurch to change for DARTu and red line luas at Four Courts and a final stop at Stephen's Green. The Densities between Stephen's Green and Kings Inn could justify a deep bore tunnel.
The one house the RPA were buying to make way for the stop at DCU would appear to be empty now and I also saw a worker from Sierra taking photos and walking the crossroads further down at Canices Road junction with the Ballymun Road this location is where the site entrance for the trucks taking the soil away from the tunnel pit if it ever starts!