Metro North

Re: Metro North

Postby missarchi » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:33 am

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Re: Metro North

Postby GrahamH » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:46 pm

Again, I would dispute how having 'eight new stops' in the city core will benefit the city centre. How? What we're talking about here is the optimum planning scenario in Dublin, where people live in the city and work in the city. Who living in the city is going to use Metro to get to somewhere else in the city in a manner that a Luas or a bus cannot facilitate? The whole point of Metro, aside from its airport linkage, is to develop communities outside the city and drop them en masse in and out everyday. It is not to facilitate movement within the confines of the city centre.

It is the Enterprise Effect. The international train service that supposedly exists to facilitate north-south movement, when in reality demand for it is overwhelmingly one-way - to enable northerners get out of Belfast to Dublin as quickly as possible. The same can be said of Swords. Metro does not facilitate residents of Dublin city. A network of seven or eight Luas lines for the same price most certainly would.
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Re: Metro North

Postby Cathal Dunne » Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:50 pm

GrahamH wrote:Again, I would dispute how having 'eight new stops' in the city core will benefit the city centre. How? What we're talking about here is the optimum planning scenario in Dublin, where people live in the city and work in the city. Who living in the city is going to use Metro to get to somewhere else in the city in a manner that a Luas or a bus cannot facilitate? The whole point of Metro, aside from its airport linkage, is to develop communities outside the city and drop them en masse in and out everyday. It is not to facilitate movement within the confines of the city centre.


Because the areas served are Heuston, Christchurch, Stephen's Green, Docklands, O'Connell St, Parnell Square, Pearse St and Mater. They are all deep in the heart of Dublin city and once all the stations are up and running, people will be able to get around the city centre even quicker using these services and they will encourage development around these places. Buses and Luas do not have the capacity to do what Metro and DART can.

It is the Enterprise Effect. The international train service that supposedly exists to facilitate north-south movement, when in reality demand for it is overwhelmingly one-way - to enable northerners get out of Belfast to Dublin as quickly as possible. The same can be said of Swords. Metro does not facilitate residents of Dublin city.


Oh yes it does. It gives Ballymun light rail, it gives Northwood Business park a stop, it serves DCU with a rail connection and it facilitates quick travel from the southside of Town to the northside and vice versa.


A network of seven or eight Luas lines for the same price most certainly would.


Luas has neither the capacity or ability to match Metro. Moreover, there are no lands available for that sort of network. They could only build the Red and Green lines because CIÉ had bought and set aside land for a rail link along the Red Line route and the old Harcourt tram line was still there. There is no space in the city for a Luas network like the one you propose. It would also cause more traffic problems than it solves as it will create traffic jams at junctions at which it has priority.
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Re: Metro North

Postby missarchi » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:25 pm

It makes no sense for Dublin to become a tram city outside the canals...
If you push that argument you must draw a line around the city in red and say...

"that's it"

But even if you do the line will get amended and removed and you will fail...

nuff said...
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Re: Metro North

Postby Cathal Dunne » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:09 pm

missarchi wrote:It makes no sense for Dublin to become a tram city outside the canals...
If you push that argument you must draw a line around the city in red and say...

"that's it"

But even if you do the line will get amended and removed and you will fail...

nuff said...


Exactly missarchi. Luas BXD would be the last must-have piece of the tram network to go and it stays within the inner Dublin area. It'd be nice for Luas to go out to Lucan and Bray but it is not essential.

What would have been ideal is if the Dublin Rapid Transit Scheme had been implemented during the 70s and 80s and given us 10-15 underground stations around Town. That way we would only have to build on spurs and the odd new station (like at Smithfield or Grand Canal Dock) as the city expanded and new areas were developed. Cities like Rome and Barcelona would be comparable to Dublin in this regard. They share with Dublin the fact that they have walkable compact city centres. However, this is enhanced by the presence of an extensive Metro network which saves you time and shoe-leather so that you can maximise your time there. Dublin should have gone down the same route 30 years ago but the same anti-developmentalists which oppose Metro North opposed that at the time and we have paid the price dearly since. Now with DARTu and MN there exists and opportunity to right historical wrongs.
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Re: Metro North

Postby PVC King » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:31 am

Cathal Dunne wrote:
, it gives Northwood Business park a stop, it serves DCU with a rail connection and it facilitates quick travel from the southside of Town to the northside and vice versa.


When someone argues that a €3bn - €5bn investment is required because it serves a logistics park you know that you are discussing matters with a very dim individual.

You previously stated that DCU was the only university in the country without a rail link; lets look at these universities.

Cork - none
Galway - None
UCD - None
Limerick - None
Belfast - Very long walk from Botanic station
Jordanstown - None
TCD - already served - but by accident and not design.

You miss a number of big pictures; firstly the bigger planning picture i.e. what type of Dublin is wanted going forward and secondly how the bigger planning picture is impacted by the fall out of the Metro North approach to the domestic banking sector between 2002-08 and the resultant inability to raise funds at realistic prices on bond markets.
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Re: Metro North

Postby missarchi » Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:30 pm

PVC King wrote:You miss a number of big pictures; firstly the bigger planning picture i.e. what type of Dublin is wanted going forward and secondly how the bigger planning picture is impacted by the fall out of the Metro North approach to the domestic banking sector between 2002-08 and the resultant inability to raise funds at realistic prices on bond markets.


Ireland has a minimum wage but not a minimum house related to the minimum wage less tax's & expenses. If you reverse engineer this that is chaos at the cross roads or a "tracking tool"

Ireland cannot monitor and audit every market or transaction.
Thus it will never claim to be in control.

The banking picture (international) = The political approach (domestic) = The planning picture (local)
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Re: Metro North

Postby Cathal Dunne » Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:15 am

PVC King wrote:When someone argues that a €3bn - €5bn investment is required because it serves a logistics park you know that you are discussing matters with a very dim individual.


Au contraire, when you have someone who jumps on the mentioning of one possible use of the line at one station of it as the justification of the whole line they are the truly dim individual. On top of that, if you actually look at the area in which the Northwood stop will be built it is already quite built up and will be increasingly so as the Metro is completed and serves the area. With the M50, Airport and Metro all in close proximity, this area can only grow and grow.

You previously stated that DCU was the only university in the country without a rail link; lets look at these universities.

Cork - none
Galway - None
UCD - None
Limerick - None
Belfast - Very long walk from Botanic station
Jordanstown - None
TCD - already served - but by accident and not design.


Well whatever about that, Maynooth has a rail connection, Trinity has a connection and DIT at Grangegorman will have a Luas connection. As a Trinity student, I know of many people who use the DART to get to college and benefit greatly from it. This illustrates how valuable a direct rail link to a university is. If anything you've merely emphasised how urgent it is to get every college in Ireland connected to the rail network in some shape or form.

On a related point, you have also failed to respond adequately to my point that if a residential area of similar density to Whitehall/Glasnevin in Maynooth housing a smaller university than DCU can support a heavy-rail line and station then DCU/Whitehall/Glasnevin can support a light-rail line.

In any case, your points about individual stations are nit-picking. The overall catchment area of Metro North is 400,000. Add in the tourists from the airport, those using Metro to connect to something else and all the rest and you have a large and plentiful market for a metro line to serve. Cities with smaller populations and lower densities than Dublin already have metro, we should too.

You miss a number of big pictures; firstly the bigger planning picture i.e. what type of Dublin is wanted going forward and secondly how the bigger planning picture is impacted by the fall out of the Metro North approach to the domestic banking sector between 2002-08 and the resultant inability to raise funds at realistic prices on bond markets.


Your conflation of the banking crisis and Metro North is egregious. Unlike the casinolike carry on of our banks, Metro North is an investment in our future. Unlike the build and borrow now, bother later attitude of developers, Metro North is a long-term project which will serve Irish people for generations.

No, I don't miss the bigger picture as I have regularly referred to other parts of the overall transport plan for the GDA. Once Metros North and West, the DART Underground, Luas BXD, Luas Line F and the Bray extension are built, we will have a public transport network to be proud of. A transport network which reflects Dublin's stature as a European capital city.
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Re: Metro North

Postby PVC King » Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:35 am

Cathal Dunne wrote: Au contraire, when you have someone who jumps on the mentioning of one possible use of the line at one station of it as the justification of the whole line they are the truly dim individual. On top of that, if you actually look at the area in which the Northwood stop will be built it is already quite built up and will be increasingly so as the Metro is completed and serves the area. With the M50, Airport and Metro all in close proximity, this area can only grow and grow.


Warehousing does not provide passengers.



Cathal Dunne wrote: Well whatever about that, Maynooth has a rail connection, Trinity has a connection and DIT at Grangegorman will have a Luas connection. As a Trinity student, I know of many people who use the DART to get to college and benefit greatly from it. This illustrates how valuable a direct rail link to a university is. If anything you've merely emphasised how urgent it is to get every college in Ireland connected to the rail network in some shape or form.


Grangegorman will not be built for a long time; like MN its funding model is busted due to the construction collapse; I did leave out Maynooth which does have a rail connection but what of all the other consituents of NUI plus Limerick, Belfast & UU? DCU has not only survived without a rail line it has thrived.

Cathal Dunne wrote: On a related point, you have also failed to respond adequately to my point that if a residential area of similar density to Whitehall/Glasnevin in Maynooth housing a smaller university than DCU can support a heavy-rail line and station then DCU/Whitehall/Glasnevin can support a light-rail line.

In any case, your points about individual stations are nit-picking. The overall catchment area of Metro North is 400,000. Add in the tourists from the airport, those using Metro to connect to something else and all the rest and you have a large and plentiful market for a metro line to serve. Cities with smaller populations and lower densities than Dublin already have metro, we should too.


With a city population of 506,211 and Swords which has village population of 2,514 and which actually fell between 2006 and 2002. You would ask the question of the following populations how many are within 1kms of a proposed stop

Swords Forrest 12,443
Swords Glasmore 7,799
Swords Lissenhall 9,072
Swords Seatown 5,934
Swords Village 2,514

All of these areas excluding Seatown and the Village are sprawling rural wards some of which go half way to Ashbourne.

Of your 400,000 catchment how many are within 1kms of the proposed line?

Cathal Dunne wrote: Your conflation of the banking crisis and Metro North is egregious. Unlike the casinolike carry on of our banks, Metro North is an investment in our future. Unlike the build and borrow now, bother later attitude of developers, Metro North is a long-term project which will serve Irish people for generations.


Is this project being paid for with cash?

The banks in many ways had more justification in that they at least had past performance to justify the cost benefit analysis underpinning much of the lending; this project has never been proved to be viable.


Cathal Dunne wrote: No, I don't miss the bigger picture as I have regularly referred to other parts of the overall transport plan for the GDA. Once Metros North and West, the DART Underground, Luas BXD, Luas Line F and the Bray extension are built, we will have a public transport network to be proud of. A transport network which reflects Dublin's stature as a European capital city.


Metro West and Luas F have both already been binned as you well know; the Bray extension is a new project I've never heard of and the RPA are not involved in Dart underground.

Provide evidence of the 1kms catchment and where the money is coming from and people may take what you say seriously; fail to do that and you remain a parrott regurgitating tripe belonging to a lost era of borrow and splurge.
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Re: Metro North

Postby cgcsb » Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:16 pm

PVC King wrote: the Bray extension is a new project I've never heard of


It was announced in the 2005 Transport 21 plan.
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Re: Metro North

Postby Cathal Dunne » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:55 pm

PVC King wrote:Warehousing does not provide passengers.


No, but the people who live just down the road do.

Grangegorman will not be built for a long time; like MN its funding model is busted due to the construction collapse; I did leave out Maynooth which does have a rail connection but what of all the other consituents of NUI plus Limerick, Belfast & UU? DCU has not only survived without a rail line it has thrived.


Grangegorman will be built as it contained in the Government's revised capital plan. DCU's growth has been limited by poor transport access. I and many other of my classmates ruled out DCU as a college option because of the requirement to change buses a number of times to get there. With a direct rail link there its growth will be given a great boost. The DCU stop will not only serve the university, but the whole community of Whitehall/Glasnevin.


Of your 400,000 catchment how many are within 1kms of the proposed line?


This point is irrelevant as the Metro links with bus routes at virtually every stop. As I said before about your imagined rural idyll that is Swords people who live near the stops can walk and those who live too far away can get the bus to the Metro and then get on. Anyway, I find it interesting that I am being asked to justify Metro on the basis of people who live right beside it by the same man who dismissed getting the Metro from Drumcondra to O'Connell St. because people should walk the distance.

International consultancies were recruited by the RPA to examine passenger numbers and demand sources for the Luas and they were proved right. The RPA repeated this process with the Metro and there's a good chance they'll be proven right again.

The banks in many ways had more justification in that they at least had past performance to justify the cost benefit analysis underpinning much of the lending; this project has never been proved to be viable.


So you're telling us that the ridiculous lending to the likes of Liam Carroll, Sean Dunne, Bernard McNamara et al. to build ghost estates is more viable than a rail link running through our capital city which will benefit us form more than a century? That's mad.


Metro West and Luas F have both already been binned as you well know; the Bray extension is a new project I've never heard of and the RPA are not involved in Dart underground.


Metro West and Luas F haven't been binned - work is ongoing on these projects and they will be completed as the situation allows it. While the RPA are not managing DART Underground, they are working closely with Iarnród Éireann on this project since both of them will have stops at Stephen's Green. Furthermore, the National Transport Agency provides even more linkage between the two projects.

where the money is coming from .


The private consortium given the tender to build it will pay for it 2010-17. We then start paying for our share out of 2017-47 tax receipts. Given that the economy will have recovered by 2017 and will be substantially larger in 2047, that gives us the fiscal basis to afford the €3-5 billion expended on Metro North.
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Re: Metro North

Postby PVC King » Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:54 am

Cathal Dunne wrote: No, but the people who live just down the road do.


This is an industrial area beside a motorway and an airport; very few people live there and in all but the most overheated property markets residential development would not be possible unless it is for social housing; i.e. housing that is incapable of contributing development levies.



Cathal Dunne wrote: Grangegorman will be built as it contained in the Government's revised capital plan. DCU's growth has been limited by poor transport access. I and many other of my classmates ruled out DCU as a college option because of the requirement to change buses a number of times to get there. With a direct rail link there its growth will be given a great boost. The DCU stop will not only serve the university, but the whole community of Whitehall/Glasnevin.


The governments capital plan is a work of fiction which they are incapable of delivering; Grangegorman although a worthy project cannot be built as the funding model was based on the sale of their existing campus. DCU has grown from no students in the 1970s to c10,000 today; how is that limited? You and your classmates ruled out DCU because you got a better offer; TCD is a World class university, DCU is a decent one but your argument on this is ridiculous. As for the whole population of Glasnevan; a large proportion is walking distance to the Maynooth line and for Whitehall a less than 5 minute bus journey to Drumcoundra.


Cathal Dunne wrote: This point is irrelevant as the Metro links with bus routes at virtually every stop. As I said before about your imagined rural idyll that is Swords people who live near the stops can walk and those who live too far away can get the bus to the Metro and then get on. Anyway, I find it interesting that I am being asked to justify Metro on the basis of people who live right beside it by the same man who dismissed getting the Metro from Drumcondra to O'Connell St. because people should walk the distance.


What I said on Drumcoundra is that there is a choice between a Dart/Luas interchange or walking either is comfortable; you would certainly walk on a summer day. On the subject of buses why can't people in Swords take a bus to Dart at Malahide and people in Ballymun and Whitehall a bus to Drumcoundra?


Cathal Dunne wrote: International consultancies were recruited by the RPA to examine passenger numbers and demand sources for the Luas and they were proved right. The RPA repeated this process with the Metro and there's a good chance they'll be proven right again.


Luas had a cost of €800m for 2 lines which do not leave Dublin postcodes i.e. built up areas with much denser populations excluding the Naas Rd routing fiasco; to acheive viability for two routes at that cost was never difficult. The Metro forecasting was done much later in the middle of a property bubble which over-estimated development figures by 500% - 1000% and airport passenger number by c50%. Plot in half the City distance; loss of one third of the airport passengers; loss of 80-90% of development potential and you have very useless projections.


Cathal Dunne wrote: So you're telling us that the ridiculous lending to the likes of Liam Carroll, Sean Dunne, Bernard McNamara et al. to build ghost estates is more viable than a rail link running through our capital city which will benefit us form more than a century? That's mad.


None of these individuals built ghost anything; however like Metro North they were wildly over-optimistic in their demand projections, wildly overoptimistic in their funding models and very bad at controlling cost; given the Luas experience on cost control one does not want to let the RPA anywhere near a new type of project when the country is so close to IMF management.



Cathal Dunne wrote: Metro West and Luas F haven't been binned - work is ongoing on these projects and they will be completed as the situation allows it. While the RPA are not managing DART Underground, they are working closely with Iarnród Éireann on this project since both of them will have stops at Stephen's Green. Furthermore, the National Transport Agency provides even more linkage between the two projects.


MW and Luas F are dead and anyone working on them should be made redundant; the RPA are incapable of working with anyone; just look at intergrated ticketing; 6 years later there is none and that is under their watch.


Cathal Dunne wrote: The private consortium given the tender to build it will pay for it 2010-17. We then start paying for our share out of 2017-47 tax receipts. Given that the economy will have recovered by 2017 and will be substantially larger in 2047, that gives us the fiscal basis to afford the €3-5 billion expended on Metro North.


As you well know there is only one consortium left in the tender process so they can charge what they like; there will be no competitive pricing. There is no gaurantee that the economy will have recovered to any substantial degree by 2017, it will hopefully be a more stable economy but it certainly cannot afford interest payments of €165m - €275m per year on this project and that assumes it were funded on government borrowing and not by a private party who would likely charge a 2% profit margin or €60m - €100m on top.

Its time for Noel to put away the trainset and start getting real about the real issues affecting Ireland.
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Re: Metro North

Postby PVC King » Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:11 am

cgcsb wrote:It was announced in the 2005 Transport 21 plan.


Like much of that document it will not happen, I have not heard anyone talk about that project on this site before now; Cherrywood was a good extension it opens up a lot of development potential around Brennanstown and Cherrywood. One would hope that the opportunity to build medium density housing on its catchment will not be wasted by the construction of endless tracts of 3 bed semis.

Now that the Inter-Urban Motorway network is more or less finished only four key projects remain

Interconnector

Luas link up

Electrification of the Maynooth and Hazelhatch lines

Docklands bus station

The country may be mired in debt and unemployment but at least infrastructure has improved dramatically.
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Re: Metro North

Postby missarchi » Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:32 am

PVCking just say you are right...

AND

Board approves with condition that if it is not built to upgraded planning and design standards that no more development will be allowed outside 15km - 200km of the city this includes no more car spaces, roads anything for the next 100 years unless 5 proper metro lines are built! (even if they have permission already)

The other condition would be that rates/services/water prices are calculated via logarithmic formulas mtr square of land/floor space less living costs. This would herald a new era of planning and development in Ireland and the true affordable house/office ect.

If the conditions where not met people would lose pensions and jobs, banks/shares...

(I know this is a odd rant but i'm trying to ascertain if the board has ever imposed conditions if something is not built)
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Re: Metro North

Postby PVC King » Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:51 am

Board approves with condition that if it is not built to upgraded planning and design standards that no more development will be allowed outside 15km - 200km of the city this includes no more car spaces, roads anything for the next 100 years unless 5 proper metro lines are built! (even if they have permission already)


These lines are being built/have been built

Connolly - Maynooth
Connolly - Greystones
Connolly - Pace
Spencer Dock - Howth
Spencer Dock - Drogheda
Spencer Dock - Hazelhatch
Port Tunnel busway


Throw in

Mallow - Midleton
Cobh Spur
Galway - Oranmore (Twin Track)
Limerick - Ennis (new stations Parkway/Moyross/Cratloe)

And there is more than enough capacity with modest further investments in the regional cities and no radical planning changes are required other than local authorities complying with regional and national policy documents.

The other condition would be that rates/services/water prices are calculated via logarithmic formulas mtr square of land/floor space less living costs. This would herald a new era of planning and development in Ireland and the true affordable house/office ect.


Offices are already highly affordable given the quality of many of the individual buildings and level of professional service support available. Homes relative to incomes are outside some pockets close to trend values. Driving property values down further is not in the national interest given the NAMA exposure to the taxpayer. Getting the public finances back into shape by way of cutting what are exceptionally bloated public sector costs and expanding retraining capacity (bye bye FAS) are the only issues at present
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Re: Metro North

Postby cgcsb » Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:29 pm

PVC King wrote:Cherrywood was a good extension it opens up a lot of development potential around Brennanstown and Cherrywood.


I'm sorry but you have just slated Metro North on the basis that it relies on future development potantial, yet you think Cherrywood luas is good BECAUSE it opens up development potential?


PVC King wrote:Now that the Inter-Urban Motorway network is more or less finished only four key projects remain

Interconnector

Luas link up

Electrification of the Maynooth and Hazelhatch lines

Docklands bus station

The country may be mired in debt and unemployment but at least infrastructure has improved dramatically.


DARTu?
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Re: Metro North

Postby PVC King » Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:24 pm

I'm sorry but you have just slated Metro North on the basis that it relies on future development potantial, yet you think Cherrywood luas is good BECAUSE it opens up development potential?


I looked at the routing of Metro North and slated it because most of the route as far as DCU is under either conservation areas or 3-bed semis so it doesn't have the existing population density or the realistic capacity to be redeveloped to deliver realistic population density; The route between Santry and South of Swords is constrained by the airport diminishing residential demand; Swords is a sprawling mess of mainly 3 bed semis with limited development potential along the 1kms catchment.

The proposal for MN was promoted in its early days along the lines that 'special development levies' on future residential development would pay for much of its cost. I praise the Cherrywood extension because it is everything MN is not

1. Cheap
2. Already built
3. In a residential catchment

DARTu?


Correct it delivers capacity to a strained network, connects a fractured network and runs under areas with decent existing plot densities or capable of development yielding significant development levies.
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Re: Metro North

Postby cgcsb » Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:47 pm

PVC King wrote:I looked at the routing of Metro North and slated it because most of the route as far as DCU is under either conservation areas or 3-bed semis so it doesn't have the existing population density or the realistic capacity to be redeveloped to deliver realistic population density; The route between Santry and South of Swords is constrained by the airport diminishing residential demand; Swords is a sprawling mess of mainly 3 bed semis with limited development potential along the 1kms catchment.


Come now PVC, that's not exactly true is it. The redevlopment of Ballymun represents a major densification of the area, the opening of Ikea, Swords Pavillions phase 3, the development of a new IT and Hospital in Swords and various other proposals for the area are definite possibilities.

Personally I think there's no need for Metro to be underground between Swords and St Mobhi road. I'm not sure if the Phibsbobough Library is protected structure or not. But If not I would prefer the route to be above ground from Swords to a tunnel entrance in the park beside Mobhi rd, a new underground stn at Phibsborough allowing passangers to change onto the Maynooth line, emerge from the tunnel in the green space to the east of mountjoy prison continue through the site of the library, under the North Circular rd.(cut and cover), through the linear park, through the playground at canal bank and deep bore tunnel starting at the grounds of Kings Inn law library, continuing south with a stop at christchurch to change for DARTu and red line luas at Four Courts and a final stop at Stephen's Green. The Densities between Stephen's Green and Kings Inn could justify a deep bore tunnel.
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Re: Metro North

Postby dc3 » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:01 pm

cgcsb wrote: The Densities between Stephen's Green and Kings Inn could justify a deep bore tunnel.


Curiously little traffic between both points.:D The Department of Justice will also be more than happy to keep any tunnels well away from Mountjoy Prision environs.

I see the Brits are supposed to be considering a national combined bus and rail ticket, to be used anywhere in the U.K., on any service provider. Doubtless we can sell them consultancy services on that one:)
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Re: Metro North

Postby cgcsb » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:21 pm

dc3 wrote:Curiously little traffic between both points.:D


the purpose of the route would be to minimize the amount of tunnel while still serving the areas that the current metro plan. The only stop left out of the route i proposed os O'Connel Bridge.

dc3 wrote:The Department of Justice will also be more than happy to keep any tunnels well away from Mountjoy Prision environs.


I suggest surface track beside mountjoy, the current proposed metro passes very close to mountjoy on the other side.
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Re: Metro North

Postby PVC King » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:31 pm

cgcsb wrote:Come now PVC, that's not exactly true is it. The redevlopment of Ballymun represents a major densification of the area, the opening of Ikea, Swords Pavillions phase 3, the development of a new IT and Hospital in Swords and various other proposals for the area are definite possibilities.

Personally I think there's no need for Metro to be underground between Swords and St Mobhi road. I'm not sure if the Phibsbobough Library is protected structure or not. But If not I would prefer the route to be above ground from Swords to a tunnel entrance in the park beside Mobhi rd, a new underground stn at Phibsborough allowing passangers to change onto the Maynooth line, emerge from the tunnel in the green space to the east of mountjoy prison continue through the site of the library, under the North Circular rd.(cut and cover), through the linear park, through the playground at canal bank and deep bore tunnel starting at the grounds of Kings Inn law library, continuing south with a stop at christchurch to change for DARTu and red line luas at Four Courts and a final stop at Stephen's Green. The Densities between Stephen's Green and Kings Inn could justify a deep bore tunnel.


The issue on MN is the relationship between cost and benefit; you will note that in analysing the route I left out Ballymun and commecial acitivity in Swords as the rebuilding of Ballymun is encouraging and even without MN phase 3 Pavillions will be an outstanding success; it has a great catchment of urban villages from Gormanstown to Ashbourne to Malahide and a horrendous amount of semi-rural sprawl with no adequate comparison retail provision, once retail sales bottom out the usual suspects will take space.

I agree that the area from Dominic St in has reasonable density but would also say that whether it routes via the 4 Courts/Christchurch or O'Connell St/College Green both areas will be adequately aleady be served by the Luas link up and Interconnector.

I can however see a project coming in at €750m - €950m being affordable; I agree that building a surface route in to just north of Phibsborough containing an interchange delivers the entire northern route; to cut costs further I'd CPO land and tender 25 year leases for multi-storey carparks North of Swords to people like NCP & Vincipark to keep capital costs down.

Where I disagree with you is from South of the Royal Canal; I would leave Luas on the former canal bed (the locals can trade off transport for park or sell their now more valuable homes and move to a garden suburb) from Consitution Hill I would split Luas in three routings

1. Connecting with the now extended Luas Green line
2. Connecting with Luas Red - shortest route to Capel St or Smithfield
3. Connecting with Dart at Newcommen Curve Spencer Dock via Mountjoy Sq & if capacity on the Swords routing proved inadequate via O'Connell Street.


The above covers more areas and keeps many journey's away from An Lar and from a cashflow perspective routings 2 & 3 can be added as capacity runs out on the O'Connell St routing.

The future is about getting a lot more from less......
PVC King
 

Re: Metro North

Postby missarchi » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:06 pm

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Re: Metro North

Postby missarchi » Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:53 am

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Re: Metro North

Postby neutral » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:10 pm

The one house the RPA were buying to make way for the stop at DCU would appear to be empty now and I also saw a worker from Sierra taking photos and walking the crossroads further down at Canices Road junction with the Ballymun Road this location is where the site entrance for the trucks taking the soil away from the tunnel pit if it ever starts!

Any word on when ABP are due to announce their decision?
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Re: Metro North

Postby PVC King » Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:14 am

The one house the RPA were buying to make way for the stop at DCU would appear to be empty now and I also saw a worker from Sierra taking photos and walking the crossroads further down at Canices Road junction with the Ballymun Road this location is where the site entrance for the trucks taking the soil away from the tunnel pit if it ever starts!


One would wonder when the notice to treat was served on the beneficial owner of this property. Had this have been served in 2007 or 2008 then the price the state will pay for it will be a multiple of what it is currently worth.

It would be arrogant in the extreme to serve CPO notices prior to planning consents being secured.

As outlined further up this post MN can acheive all its objectives as a Luas line at a fraction of the cost; but hey why build for less than a billion when you can spend €3bn.
PVC King
 

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