Derelict Cottage on the site

Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby emailtojohn » Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:49 am

I am currently considering buying site on the Meath-Kildare border with a small derelict house and outhouses. I also could not see any evidence of a septic tank but assume there mist have been at some stage.

My wife and I have lived/studied/worked in a 5-6 mile radius of the site for the last 12 years but I have no association with agriculture or special need to live in the countryside.
I currently live 3.5 miles away form the site but would love to move out of a housing estate and build our dream home.

Essentially, I am wondering how doest this affect my chances of getting planning permission to demolish the existing house and build a new house.

Am I wasting my time and money considering buying this site?

Any advice or comments would be appreciated.

John
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Re: Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby emailtojohn » Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:39 pm

Come on folks......150 views and no replies.

Surely somebody has a some advice or an comment at least......
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Re: Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby phil » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:35 am

What about converting the cottage and outhouse instead of knocking it? Is it possible to do this., or is it in too poor a state?
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Re: Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby PDLL » Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:05 pm

emailtojohn wrote: My wife and I have lived/studied/worked in a 5-6 mile radius of the site for the last 12 years but I have no association with agriculture or special need to live in the countryside.
I currently live 3.5 miles away form the site but would love to move out of a housing estate and build our dream home.


John, the reason you have received no replies out of 150 views is because many contributors to Archiseek would view you as the embodiment of the Anti-Christ. You, my dear man, are the Beelezebub that is single-handedly undoing the fabric of Irish society and destroying its environment.

If you do not know what I mean, you should read the threads on one-off houses on Archiseek.

For my own part, I say fair play to you for admitting what many seem scared to admit - that you do not want to live in a poxy estate on the outside of some poxy town; that you do not want to be boxed in by the monotonous mono-plan depressingly repetitive crap that has been tacked on to the arse of every town in the country in the last 20 years. Fair play to you John, for actually making a decision that that is not for you and that you would actively prefer to make a lifestyle choice which involves living in the countryside.

As regards the cottage - well, I am sure that a number of comrades in Archiseek would suggest that you reonovate it with mud and wattle walls and herd three cows, two sheep and one pig into one half of it while you and your family peel potatoes and boil cabbage in the other half. You should, however, employ the services of an architect in designing the mud-and-wattle restoration out of fear that the mud and wattle may not achieve the synergetic interplay with the indigenuous breed of blackberry bushes in the surrounding fields. Alternatively, you can just move to a nice leafy suburb of south Dublin, forget the rural dream and delude yourself into believing that your four bedroom ostentacious semi with back and front garden is somehow more environmentally and socially acceptable than the 'McMansions' built in Meath and Kildare.

Good luck with the restoration or demolition, John.
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Re: Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby ctesiphon » Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:32 pm

Jeez PDLL. Lighten up. I don't see you coming up with the answers. Cheap points scoring? Hobby horse riding? Sure. Never miss a chance for those, do you?

There are many potential reasons for the lack of replies to this. PDLL's diagnoses would be one possibility, but what others?
Members simply don't know? That would be the main one, I'd have thought. It's quite a detailed question, somewhat beyond the capabilities of many members, I'd imagine. Not only that, but who'd like to give advice that could see you out of pocket?
In addition, as I said on another Irish Planning sub-forum thread recently, some people might be resentful of their professional opinion being sought for free, seeing this as a discussion forum rather than an advice forum. As I've said a number of times elsewhere, site appraisals are a planning consultant's bread and butter. (I know you're thinking of going this route, John. Well worth it.)
Or maybe members are just tired of threads turning into meta-analyses of the one-off debate? Can't just express an opinion on a single question without having someone jumping down your neck (this goes for both sides, PDLL, before you take offence).

To answer the question with any conviction would require familiarity with the local development plan, familiarity with the Meath Co Co planning dept., and familiarity with similar cases in Meath and elsewhere. Hands up who has this readily to hand? Not me.

That's why I communicated my (non-professional) opinions to John via private message, PDLL, which consisted of my feelings that it might be slightly easier to get PP if there is an existing non-habitable dwelling on site (I'm presuming its non-habitability here) and if the potential purchaser can demonstrate their intention to live and work in the area. (Extract below.)

I sawv your post earlier, but I must confess it's a bit beyond my experience. One thing I'd say is that the chances of getting a dwelling onto a site should be better if there is a pre-existing building there. It shows a history of occupancy on the site, which you don't get with virgin farmland.
Regarding the fact that you're a 'blow in', I really don't know. I'd say it would help if you could show or prove that you intent to live there full time, and the fact that your current home isn't too far away is a good thing- better to be coming from a local estate than from Dublin or Cork. And if you work not too far away, so much the better.


In essence, I think this case is probably beyond the scope of a discussion thread, John, and requires a consultant's opinion or a long chat with MCC. I'm not sure if anyone else agrees with me. Maybe they're all just being vindictive like PDLL says?:rolleyes:
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Re: Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby a boyle » Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:15 pm

me ,a smattering of PDLL with a sprinkling of ctesiphon.

Long term, if you want rural , meath aint the county to be in. the motorway means enevitably that dublin is coming to meath and meath is going , well it is going and that is it!

Expanding and trying not to be so negative,you shouldn't be made to feel guilty for all ireland's problems. Do do some sums first.House prices are over valued ( how much is not clear ) , so the long term is that they have to fall (in real terms or through inflation). And think carefully , your children might love having a big garden to play in , but it is not much fun if there are no children around to play with.Driving to the shop with a baby just to buy some milk isn't great crack the tenth time round.Think hard don't take some stranger's advice on the internet that you have never met and couldn't really care less what happens to you!
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Re: Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby PDLL » Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:27 pm

I can only laugh Ctesiphon. I think it is the hypocrisy that is bringing a smile to my face. Let me remind you, that it was you who, in discussing people like John – a card-carrying want-to-be member of the ‘one-off brigade’, said that

‘petty me feinism and avoidance of the bigger picture is the bread and butter of the pro-one-off brigade’ (Old Wives Tale, 30 November 2005).:) :D

Please don’t come over all coy now that a real life member of that brigade has walked into the lion’s den. As regards vindictiveness, let me recall a comment by Devin in response to the refusal of planning permission for a one-off house:

Devin: ‘Glad you were refused – the countryside is being destroyed with one-off houses’ (Old Wives Tale, 26 November 2005).

Ya – sounds fairly vindictive to me.

Given the many times that people like John have been castigated by members of Archiseek as being nothing more than selfish destroyers of the environment and burdens on the tax-payer, I feel my comments were balanced, relevant and judicious.

Answers?

If it was me and I could afford to employ an architect (which many cannot), I would probably try to integrate the original house into a new structure (juxtaposition of glass walls and old stone work would work well), comprising the old with the new. Continuity with the past and our obvious and undeniable connection with the rural landscape being of paramount importance. Whether planning regulations would allow this is unknowable given the lack of first hand experience with the site in question. Alternatively, I would suggest that John proceeds to construct the house of his choice subject to the planning laws and the size of his wallet and leave the old structure with the possibility of using it inventively in future years.
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Re: Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby PVC King » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:51 pm

PDLL wrote: Given the many times that people like John have been castigated by members of Archiseek as being nothing more than selfish destroyers of the environment and burdens on the tax-payer,


It is undeniable that one off houses have these effects; however your interpretation is flawed in that most opponents of this form of development blame the government for not regulating against it. Any individual who builds a one off house is expoiting an arbitrage situation that would not be permitted anywhere else in Northern Europe.

My advice to John is that you should consider the loss of facilities you concede by turning your back on urban Ireland and be aware that if you buy a site without full planning permission you may have paid over the agricultural value for agricultural land you may or may not be lucky enough to secure planning permission and that is the risk that you are taking.

I would seek planning advice from an accredited architect with an in depth local knowledge of the relevant planning regime before doing anything
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Re: Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby publicrealm » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:24 am

Hi John,


If you do not wish to employ any of the eminent professionals (who presumably work when not swinging their handbags around this forum :rolleyes: ) you could do a quick diy assessment?

If Meath has a decent planning registry (in the county offices) you might be able to view recent decisions in the locality of your site - most authorities now have a fairly decent online reference system (called GIS) which will let you target the area in question - otherwise use their maps. If any cases are similar to what you propose then pull the file and study the planner's report. This will summarise the policy relating to the issue and will give you a good idea of what to expect.

If any cases are appealed to the board you can note the Bord's reg. ref. and read the Inspector's report online
http://www.pleanala.ie/main1.html Also - a mix of 'rural' 'house' and 'meath' searchwords on the Board site will bring up some results. Try experimenting with other mixes - including the relevant townland.

For more than that you do need to use a planning consultant - but at least you will have some idea of whether it is worth the expense.


(My preference, for what it's worth, would be to restore the existing - or at least incorporate it into the new - for that you do need an architect (but for heaven's sake don't let him/her near the planning issue :D )
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Re: Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby LittleLamb » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:59 pm

Please, if you do decide to go ahead with this development and go for planning permission, try to incorporate the old cottage into the new development. Although I havent seen the site or the cottage, I imagine what is there sits more comfortably in the landscape than more 'modern' one-off houses...be they hacienda style bungalows or massive 'mc mansions'!! With the help of a QUALIFIED architect you could probably create something really beautiful for yourself and also more acceptable to the planning authority...although I don't have much experience with Meath CoCo. Remember, design and siting are two issues which should be top priority if you do go ahead and buy a piece or rural Ireland for yourself :)
If you can could you describe the cottage on site, I would be interested in hearing about it.
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Re: Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby phil » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:15 pm

emailtojohn wrote:Come on folks......150 views and no replies.

Surely somebody has a some advice or an comment at least......


emailtojohn,

When you started this thread you seemed in a rush for information. Whilst in some ways the thread strayed a little bit away from what you originally wanted it to do (in quite an interesting way I think) I felt that people showed genuine interest in what you were doing. I feel it would now be courteous to respond to some of the questions being asked by people who made the effort to respond to your original request. You have obviously been on the site again since the time as you requested a speedy reply to another request for information in the last day:

http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?p=49807#post49807

Apologies if I am coming across badly here, but I just feel that someone who posts requesting replies to a thread they have started should at least then respond to some of the questions and comments made. It would also be interesting to hear more details about what it is you are proposing to do.

Phil
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Re: Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby emailtojohn » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:28 pm

Fair point. But in fairness, I have contacted two members by private message to say thanks for their contribution.

I have checked the planning history and PP was refused to date on three separate occasions by different applicants. I am trying to get to the local authority to view the planning file and discuss it with the planners. As soon as I have something concrete, I will post my findings.

As a non-professional member, I do greatly appreciate the feedback from professional members and believe that is this balance and sharing of opinions that makes archiseek so successful.

Believe me, I am just as eager to post again, but first need to clarify the facts. Once again, thanks to everybody who has posted to date.

John
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Re: Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby PVC King » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:34 pm

John,

I would be interested to know if the vendors or their agents informed you of the site history and if you asked them were they 100% honest or was it ducked?
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Re: Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby phil » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:39 pm

Thanks for that John.

I apologise if I came across harsh.

It will be interesting to hear why planning permission has been refused on three separate occassions. Did they involve the demolition or retention of existing structures?

Good luck with your enquiries,

Phil
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Re: Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby emailtojohn » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:48 pm

The selling agent did not disclose the true facts and said there would be "no problem" getting PP, but needless to say I was suspicious, hence my post and research to previous PP.

I am trying to get a app to see the files and will hopefully post tomorrow evening.
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Re: Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby PVC King » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:53 pm

You should report the agency to either the IAVI or IPAV or SCS that is willful malpractice that could have cost you a lot of money as an honest and genuine consumer.
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Re: Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby emailtojohn » Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:56 pm

I did challenge him on this point but he said that he had disclosed all the facts available to him at the time. Your principles are to be admired but such malpractice is so common, if the agent even received a warning letter or phone call I would be surprised.
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Re: Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby PVC King » Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:13 pm

No property professional could possibly give an opinion on the development potential of a site having not first researched the planning history; was there a marketing brochure and or ad in a newspaper or was it on a website or was it off-market?
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Re: Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby emailtojohn » Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:25 pm

Web advertisement simply read "Derelict cottage on 3/4 Acre Site". Any other comments were sales talk from the agent.
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Re: Derelict Cottage on the site

Postby PVC King » Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:45 pm

You have been treated shamefully and this appears like a very clear case of deliberate misinformation.

Given that this property was being actively marketed I would make a complaint to the relevant professional body as each body knows that the regulation of residential auctioneering is starting to look extremely shaky given that it was last reformed in 1989.

The IAVI have a very clear diciplinary procedure and at this politically sensitive time are not worried about implementing it. Where you could have no comeback is if the agent is not affiliated to a professional body but merely a member of Remax or similar 'franchise'
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