Standard of Education in DIT, Bolton Street

World architecture... what's happening generally....

Postby J » Sun Jul 30, 2000 10:48 am

I think that the suggestion that a non-architect head of dept. be appointed is a dangerous one. The present head does not represent the ultimate canditate for the job even within the Irish community of architects. As for the idea that the building boom is the cause of tutors showing lack of commitment to the course. I spent 6 pre-boom years in Bolton St. and it was pretty much the same. As has been said before certain individuals need to be removed from the their cushy retirement jobs and I'm not necessarily talking about the department leadership.
I think that everyone applying for transfer to UCD is a good idea. It is of course meant as a very visible protest rather than a serious application.
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Postby NAAS » Sun Jul 30, 2000 2:01 pm

This is my first time to visit this site and I love it.I am a Bolton Street graduate and I am delighted to see that even in a time of economic boom, spite, bile, bitterness, and frustration are still flourishing in dear old Bolton Street. One comment about education, A fella I know recently got married. He was asked about the difficulty of organising a wedding but replied that after surviving the thesis in Bolton Street, Organising anything else in piss easy.
Lots of Love.

Postby been there,done that » Sun Jul 30, 2000 11:57 pm

Well, plus ca change

If its any consolation to ye, its always been like that.

I spent six happy ( damn, I crack myself up) years in Bolton Street,one extra after failing a year when Jim Horan was a year-master. such was his self-importance back then, I am not in the least surprised to hear that he has matured nicely into a model despot. A big fish in a very ****ing small pool.

Do you still have the lecturer/ lecherer that cannot keep his hands off the ladies ?

In Ireland, we do not have formal class actions such as exist in the USA. However, if everyone is so pissed off as they say they are, a collection of £5 from everyone in the department ( three ****ing pints , in case you complain about the price- I'm giving my age away ) should raise a battle fund of over £2000 surely..I am convinced an appeal to graduates could be matched to this.. and with the right legal issue ( if there is one, and its not all rumour and inneundo..) a court challenge could work wonders.

Do staff regularly miss work ?

Is the level of debate still puerile and closed ?

Is the intimidation still there ?

Can anyone understand the means used to assess projects and it's evenhanded application ?

However, unless students are prepared to genuinely stand up to the divide and conquer mentality which has been used to intimidate and shut up issues in the past , don't even think of doing anything , go for a walk.

If ye are going for it though, good luck. Because you will definitely need it.
been there,done that

Postby f9 » Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:05 pm

The idea that some staff actually have regular hours is laughable.It must be one of the very few courses in the country where the student attendance is higher than that of the staff.

Postby duncan » Sat Aug 12, 2000 2:57 pm

im going back in september to D.I.T. after a year out, ive finished 3rd year, i have worked on building sites in germany, 4 months in an architects in galway and am now working on a big site in galway city centre.

i am concerned as to the quality of architecture in general and i have tried to do something, small as it is, about it

in bolton street, d.i.t, the quality of the education we are getting, in my view, is not too good. but we as the student body are trying to organize things as to improve this situation.

it is a challenge that i hope next year will be taken up by all irish students of architecture, irish architects and others intereseted

i would recomend going to bolton st. i am looking foreward to going back. it should be a very interesting year to say the least.

good luck
duncan crowley
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Postby duncan » Sat Aug 12, 2000 3:13 pm

Quality of Architecture

is this talked about by students and staff and those working in the "real world"

does anybody know what it is, i think its a serious attempt to come up to answers to the question of "what is a sustainable universe"

in my 4 years and 1 out of college theres been no very very litle real talk done by anyone as to this question

i am looking foreward to going back in a few weeks, i plan to have a lot of FUN, as that is one of the most important thnigs in life

sin è
slan libh
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Postby f9 » Sun Aug 27, 2000 5:27 pm

Duncan,I'm sure you do want college to be 'FUN' and that your intentions are good but to be fair ridiculously general,pseudo-intellectual discussion is not going to improve the plight of Bolton St students at the moment.The situation is to serious now for that.Idealism can be endearing in some people but yours strikes me as nieve and slightly aggravating,not to mention completely ineffective.We would be better served if we stuck to some basic truths i.e
the quality of the course has slipped severely,Jim Horan and his cronies are largely to blame,the students nedd to take action immediately.And although most of my previous contributions to this page have been less than constuctive I do feel that the course is worth saving,that the quality of the students there surpases that of other like courses and that it would be possible to effect a complete overhaul of the present system within 2-3 years.
There are more than a few avenues of attack(or defence,whichever way you prefer to see it) open to us.However there are 6 which I feel would reap the best and swiftest results.
1.The formation of a new council whose sole purpose is to bring about the reform of the course.This body would consist of 3 representatives from each year,including the technician course.This would form a committee of 24 persons from which a further 4 may be nominated as liasion officers to the college,the RIAI,and the press.I think a council like this with only one agenda could maintain a momentum and a support that the ASA obviously lacks.A committee that is neither funded nor endorsed by the DIT is inherently more radical and less comprimised than the ASA.
2.A formal compaint of Jim Horan and the course setup should be made on behalf of the students to the RIAI and the Minister for Education along with a demand that the course be subject to an inspection within the first 2 months of the new college year.
3.The new council should formulate its own plan of campaign including a series of staged walk-outs and sit-ins.Unlike the LIT I don't feel that an indefinite strike would better our situation.For one thing we all work too hard just to pass the course without willfully missing huge chunks of the ciriculum and also the 5th years,who's support is vital,could not afford to strike for any major length of time.Sit-ins over night would probably be the most disruptive and therefore most effective action.
4.The suggestion of a lawyer made by another contributer is a good one and should be carefully looked at.
5.The media could now be involved.As seen in LIT it can be very effective and although it is certainly a double-edged sword,in this case they would probably be an ally.
6.The students themselves submit a written request that both J.Horan and E.O'Shea resign.
Obviously none of these actions can be taken without the support of the architectural community,in particular the post-grads.
It also remains to be seen whether a demoralised student body will be forceful enough to excite change.However they're just a few suggestions.

Postby ja&c » Tue Aug 29, 2000 9:06 pm

i think that that last piece by f9 is very good.
as regards Duncan, i know that you mean well and i fully understand you but 'life' is not what is the question here, architecture is not life and life is not architecture.
nevertheless, as f9 said, this course is worth fighting for and we the student body are going to do everything we can to do so.
if we don't, it wasn't that important to us afterall.

i think that as soon as we get back to college (and after a few swift ones accross in bodkins) we should settle into a meeting between the current 'commitee' and the horan/o'shea clan, set up this 24 person 'task force' and bomb these ****ers.


Postby ja&c » Mon Sep 11, 2000 1:32 pm

so has everybody died here or what?
college is in 14 days time and i can't wait to get back.

i have to say that since my ways of saying things and language used has been a little dogmatic to date, for the sake of the diplomacy involved, i will no longer speak in such a crude, sub-intellectual manner which is hardly becomming of an individual with such clarity of vision and intellectual prowess that got me into the course in the first place...... bollox!!!

Postby Well Read! » Mon Sep 11, 2000 4:08 pm

Standards of Education in Bolton Street...... don't make me laugh! It's non existant. They accept anyone too! Substandard lecturers teaching substandard pupils with attitude problems producing substandard work. They would be more suited to sweeping the roads of the cities of the future rather than designing them. God forbid...perish the thought! Poor Duncan and ja&c seem really lost.
Well Read!

Postby ja&c » Mon Sep 11, 2000 5:22 pm

whats YOUR problem 'well read'
where are you from, the engineering dept.?
the technology dept.? UCD?
By the way, am i spelling alright for you, and is my grammar up to your impecable standard?

Are my pronouns and adverbs all in sink, do my vowels insult youu??

actually shtit, i forgot to wear my shirt and tie, oh dear god, darn it, hold on one minute chaps until i go and fetch my new blazer, pressed slacks and burgandy shoes.

this is not a frikkin spelling or grammar rhodeo , an architectural site and this forum happens to be abort the D.I.T you moron so unless you have anything CONSTRUCTIVE to say...

gggggggejt llawwwwsst

Postby ss » Mon Sep 11, 2000 5:26 pm

what steps have you taken to insure that all this upheaval does in fact go through.


Postby 007 » Tue Sep 12, 2000 7:42 am

Boy, are you guys in for a surprise! You really think Horan hasn't worked out just how to turn the tables?

Postby HA! HA! » Tue Sep 12, 2000 9:23 am

To ja&c.... Hey dopey hole , shut up you immature juvenile mouthpiece. You're empty little diatribes reveal a rather insecure mixed up character.It's unbelievable the drivel you've written. I think you're entering the wrong profession or the wrong type of institution.I would just love to see the standard of the work you produce...... bloody awful no doubt. You probably think that 'Adolf Loos' was something to do with Hitler's toilet habits, that 'Fukuoka' is a rude word and a 'flying buttress' is a type of aircraft. You're idea of 'haute couture' no doubt would be a tracksuit or a pair of combats and I doubt very much if you could hold a pencil properly let alone draw.
Grow Up! and Fukuoka too!

(I can't wait to see the reply ....don't blow your top.....Temper!...Temper!.....Childish Tantrums!)

Postby mht » Tue Sep 12, 2000 10:20 am

for f*** sake .... shut up and get a life ... this is an architecture forum ... not a bitching forum

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Postby Paul Clerkin » Tue Sep 12, 2000 11:05 am

People if yopu cannot discuss your course crisis without decending to slagging and juvenile rantings, there is not hope for you changing it.

This is an architecture forum not a juvenile forum for slagging and crudity
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Postby MG » Tue Sep 12, 2000 11:10 am

I didn't study architecture, but another creatively based course in another college and we had what seems like the exact same problems. We got some of our way but in the finals, the ringleaders got hammered by the department heads. So be careful.
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Postby duncan » Tue Sep 12, 2000 3:53 pm

standard, quality and direction of architecture in general

i feel that all aspects of life are changing rapidly day by day and that peoples views of what is architecture have changed only a little bit. there are many fine buildings being built and that is a very good thing but i think that there is a lot more to architecture than just making nice buildings.

there are many problems in the world, humans are causing destruction of species and habitats, if we keep going the way we are we will bring an end life as we know it on this beautiful planet, some argue that by then we will be living in space stations and terraformed planets, maybe?
but i think that we have a responsibility, we as people and then as architects, to find out what factors are at play that are leading to this destruction and try to come up with solutions to these problems

some people will argue that that is not architecture, maybe its not for them. but i feel that it definately is and i am willing to pursue and challenge this view, i hope that in doing so others see that we have to look at things differently, an example of this was when i came back into bolton street during "architecture week", there was very little going on and the general feeling amongst students was "this is a load of,,,,"
anyway with that i tried to organize a forum about the quality of our education, there was a fair turn out and im glad to say that students are now thinking discussing and taking action so that things improve.

life is a very complex system, i think it all interconnected and that we have to learn how to create and work with systems, be those political, educational, scientific or the smaller ones like organizing and taking part in a city parade on paddys day.

i feel we have to learn about what factors are making things the way they are today, ie, economics, religion, corrution, ignorance

in the developing world there are milllions of people leaving their farms to come to cities to try to "make it", the result is that there are huge cities sprouting up in asia, and millions unemployed starving and dying in other parts of the world.
i think we have to try to design and build sustainable cities, now that we have the chance, what is a "sustainable city"
we have to create systems so that these are built. how do we do that, learn and act by whatever means. today bono is up shaking hands with the pope, united in trying to bring 3rd world debt to an end for developing countries.

at the end of the day you have to enjoy life, thats the main thing. i feel that learning about whats goin on and acting toward a "sustainable, peaceful and fun planet" is the direction we should take, i believe it leads to the fullest feeling of being alive.

i am going back to college in 2 weeks and im looking foreward to getting things going, i hope you i will get to meet many of you and that you will contribute to things in bolton street and to the world at large

sorry for the length
and i hope you enjoy your lives too
slan libh
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Postby duncan » Tue Sep 12, 2000 4:16 pm

“Peace is the highest value. If the peace has been shattered, how can one be content" Chapter 31, Tao Te Ching

“The mark of a high-quality theory is that it doesent just answer the question in a round about way, it dissolves the question so that you wonder why you ever asked it in the first place” “Lila”, Robert M Pirsig

“We still have to believe that play has a vital role in building a society for man, the eternal child” Alvar Aalto, 1978

“If the day ever dawns when science, art and religion become as one by recognizing each others facilities and qualities as different in reality, but really as reinforcing each other, we would then have something like the thing which is now missing”
Frank Llyod Wright

The scientists religious feeling take the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that in comparison with it, all the systematic thinking of a human being is an utterly insignifigent reflection. This feeling is the guiding principle of his life and work Re, Einstein

“The search for Gods design, the source of all true Art and Science” Einstein

“Why does the universe exist?, to know that would be to know the mind of God”
Stephen Hawkins

Enter through the narrow gate for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many find it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
The Bible, Matthew 7.13

1-“My uniform experience has convinced me that there is no other God than truth and the only means for the realization of truth is ahimsa”.(non-violence and part of Gandhis non-violent protest movement)
2-”Those that say that religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion means”.
“Autobiography, the story of my experiments with truth”- Mahatma Gandhi

“Wisest is she who knows that she does not know” Socrates

“Always look at things from the perspective of eternity” Spinoza

“A sustainable society is one that satisfies its needs without diminishing the prospects of future generations” Lestor Brown

Man did not weave the web of life;
he is merely a strand in it.
Whatever he does to the web,
he does to himself. 1854, Chief Seattle

A holistic view of something is to see it as a functional whole and to understand the interdependance of all its parts accordingly. “The Web of life”, Fritjof Capra

The richest man is not the one with all the money
He is the one who knows what to do with his free time
C/o Stanley matthews

sat 30th sep, dublin city carnival for a just world

passing on some info re the parade and protest for a just world in the streets of dublin, this is architectural, how a city is lived in and used by those that live there, it should be interesting, fun and most importantly be an act toward a peaceful and sustainable world.


On saturday the 30th of September there is going to be a Carnival against Global Economic Justice in Temblebar in solidarity with Prague events. It starts at 10:30am with eyewitnesses accounts of events in Prague, workshops and discussions about the IMF - reform it or get rid of it?, 3rd World Debt, environment etc.
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Postby ja&c » Tue Sep 12, 2000 5:40 pm

dear ha!ha!

since we are not using our real names here i cannot say for certain whether or not we know each other.
i hope we do because if you did know me you would know that i can infact draw and my work is infact of a fairly high standard.

if you can't see past the rude words you seem to be discusted by, well then you are the most ignorant person i have never met.
do you honestly think i come on here to this website just to type in a few curses, especially when i have to spell them wrong since the correct spelling would show up as a string of *********'s.

as for that load of s.h.1.t you spouted there about me thinking that a flying butress was some kind of aircraft.....
who are YOU trying to impress.
i think i realise that sensitive souls like yourself get all flustered when someone starts a cussin, so its for YOUR sake that i'm writing like this.

it doesn't seem to convey my feelings, does it?
thats why i don't like writing in this manner, because its plain and boring and yadda yadda yadda.

to conclude, i don't know you from writing to you and i don't really give a sh1t whether i know you in the real world or not because you sound like a c.unt anyway.

do you not comprehend that if all we do is sit around type mindless 'drivel' like this, the course will sink.

and you know what, i won't care because i won't be here because by the time it sinks, i will be gone because it just so happens, i think i am in the wrong course.

and so too, my friend, are you.

Postby ja&c » Tue Sep 12, 2000 5:54 pm

to ha!ha!

you think you have me figured out.
hows this..

you are a cocky, pretentious git who likes, no LOVES to hear yourself talk.

where did you get all that 'adolf loos' and 'flying buttresses' drivel from?

do you honestly think thats what i think they mean? i mean honestly? do me a favour and stop trying to impress other readers with your unsuccessful attempts at humour.

immature? thats not the first time i've been called that

mouthhole? if a few curses written down on an internet site offends you, you are destined for the same place as all those pretentious architects who went before you.

not being able to draw or hold a pencil?
i guarantee you that i'm twice as good as you.

having an awful standard of design etc..?
i don't know how good you are but unless you are excellent, i'd match your sh1t any day of the week.

in short, you obviously don't understand what i'm trying to say in this forum but by the end of the year i GUARANTEE you that i will have the last laugh.

Postby ja&c » Tue Sep 12, 2000 6:31 pm

for some reason this thing is not posting my replies, yet the last updated time matches my time exactly.

anyway, if this is the third reply i am giving to HA!HA!, sorry, i'm just trying to get one of them posted.

where in the name of god are you getting YOUR drivel from.
what exactly from my previous statements revealed that i am insecure or whatever else it is that you called me.

i can handle being called immature, you're not the first to say that.
if i come accross as immature, that's because the manner in which i try to say things might be a little 'crude'.
that is only, by the way, because talking sensibly like this doesn't seem to work.
i suppose my way of saying it isn't working either.

regarding you mentioning the fact that i can hardly hold a pencil, i am actually, now that you mention it, finding it slightly difficult to manage that.
its a wonder i got into the course in the first place.

you are probably right about my skills as an architect also, i probably am shite.
in fact, i think that maybe i'm not that much use as a human being at all now that you mention it.

without sounding too sarcastic, i think i will tell a few things as they are.

your pityfull attempt at humour in talking about adolf loos and flying buttresses was in all fairness pretty weak, what do ya think??
you make me wince. you are like a bad rip-off of an already poor tv sit-com.
i mean, did you really think that you were being either clever or humourous?

anyway , enough of that.
i believe you were expecting something along the lines fukkin cunt, i'll fukkin kill you.
you suck, you are stuupid and a crap architect.
your'e dead etc etc..

good luck ha!ha!.

Postby new boy » Wed Sep 13, 2000 12:45 pm

f9 I like the way that your talking.
You seem to know where we have to go.

I have been on erasmus for the last year, and the prospect of returning to 5th year Bolton St. seems more than daunting to me.
I am interested in doing something about our situation, and getting a ball rolling somehow. Why not now? I am interested in freedom of expression, the last time I did that I was told- 'well that's all very well, it's nice to hear your thoughts, but where's your building', by a younger member of staff. That's when I decided to get out. Now I'm going back and I feel like a square peg in a round hole. I am literally boiling over, having read the complaints and frustrations vented by the students. I know exactly how you feel. when I was in third year and second year, I was thinking the same things, but there was such a cloak of silence or a taboo attitude to reform of any kind in Architecture and town planning(where incidentally is the town planning?).
Someone raised a good point about the fact that it maybe is entirely up to ourselves to do something about this and not wait for the next group of disillusioned youngsters to challenge a too long established staff who take a too flippant and blase approach to OUR education. I learned more in one year abroad, than I did in my three years of continuously repetetive building and cattleshed designing in bolton St.

This course of ours is inspirationless and comes off the back of an economic boom in this country/city (the country doesn't matter) where designing new banking institutions and dart shelters and f**king millennium bridges, are the order of the day and will solve all the other problems of transport and overcrowded unhealthy living conditions in this city.
Right now the students in Bolton St. are anonymous voiceless drones, manufactured and subservient to what they're told to expect on the outside. How can you know more if you're not shown more?

What the lecturers/Curriculum writers in Bolton St. fail to see is the bigger picture.
I tarnish you all with the same brush.
There's always more folks.

make contact.
new boy

Postby ja&c » Thu Sep 14, 2000 7:12 pm

first contact.

alright new boy, thats the spirit.
although i don't know what the **** i wan't out of architecture anymore i am 100% up for reform.

what do you think should be the first steps towards knocking the 'berlin wall'.

e-mail me on with ideas because if we post our ideas here on this form the opposition will be watching.

Postby f9 » Sat Sep 16, 2000 1:06 pm

This is getting slightly off the point but it is a good example of the pitfalls that will dog any campaign the students wish to launch.Counter-productive in-fighting is exactly the kind of thing that could save J.Horan's ass.However,if we run the meetings like any conventional forum with a chairperson and everyone waitng until they have been recognised by the chair before they launch into their particular diatribe we should accomplish enough so as to be effective.Once the meetings have decided on the general sentiment the delegates can go from there,with council direction. In-fighting is unavoidable and besides it displays an enthuasiasm for the subject that is nice to see in this course.Keep arguing but don't let it distract you from your purpose.The one thing that is absolutely ****ing pathetic is saying that J.Horan is ready for us and has already made plans that we cannot alter.How self-defeatist is that.You're exactly the kind of person we don't want to hear from.Even you must see that your contribution is distructive and unhelpful to both sides of the arguement.Your manifesto of apathy would be better kept to yourself.
If you feel you have know control over your life,fair enough,don't saddle the rest or us with your childish lethargy.
Finally,I presume whoever thinks that the arch. students in Bolton ST are unsuitable for the course has never tried to secure a place there.Besides the fact that you need well over 450 points in the Leaving
the aptitude tests and portfolio interview result in a group of people who are among the best educated,highly disiplined and artisticly talented in the country.It's just a pity the course dosen't do us justice.


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