New Scottish Parliament

World architecture... what's happening generally....

Postby PVC King » Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:39 pm

Ridiculous Brief, Ridiculous design, Ridiculous construction period.

Our lot are bad but not every office having a Sofa with a panoramic window view.

If they designed a building instead of a disnified mock viking village they might have

A> Built in on time

B> Attracted some respect

The fact that this happened in Edinburgh surprises me, I normally find the place a breath of fresh air. Looking forward to a weekend there in Feb
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Postby BTH » Tue Dec 09, 2003 10:07 pm

Woah Diaspora! have you actually seen whats going up at the bottom of the Royal Mile! One of the most crazy, radical and exciting buildings of the century I'd say... Definitely nothing "disnified mock viking village" going on!! Personally I smell something rotten about the whole process of the Inquiry, even more than what went on all those years ago... It seems that Dead people are being held accountable for all the mis-management and lies that have gone on between then and now, their names and reputations being dragged through the mud (and who's to say whether a lot of what is being said by certain former project managers and the like is true?). All to satisfy some media driven witchhunt against the very idea of the building itself...
What isn't being mentioned so much during the inquiry are all the myriad changes, forced by the Scottish Parliament as a whole, to the quantity and size of the accommodation required, the insane levels of strengthening added to counteract "terrorist threat" and other decisions which led to the huge increase in cost beyond the first realistic estimate.
Scotland will have a building to be proud of, that much is certain. Unfortunately it should be less proud of it's politicians who are slimily worming their way out of responsibility for the current problems... All very reminiscent of the Sydney Opera House debacle as Hugh stated...
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Postby PVC King » Tue Dec 09, 2003 11:55 pm

I disagree, It is not legible in the Same sense as the Sydney Opera house or The Guggenheim in Bilbao.

It is more reminiscent of a cluster of preserved and unrelated vernacular streetscapes.

At least in Brasillia they built a city.
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Postby Martin J » Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:30 am

I was fortunate enough to visit the building recently as part of an organised CPD tour.

Firstly, there is no doubt in my mind that what is slowly emerging is a fanstastic piece of architecture, a building that I sincerely hope will one day be looked upon as Scotland's "Sydney Opera House".

Secondly, let us hope that the ultimate end users appreciate and understand the building (unlike the new Museum of Scotland which I understand is soon to suffer some unsympathetic alterations by the client without recourse to Benson & Forsyth)

Thirdly, the cost over run pales into insignificance, when you compare it for example, with the relocation of the computers (and only the computers mind) for the new GCHQ Intelligence building which exceeded its budget by over £360m alone ! Why no publicity of this fact?
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Postby BTH » Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:10 am

Well Diaspora, sounds like your visit to Edinburgh can't come soon enough..! I really can't see where youre coming from here-
"It is more reminiscent of a cluster of preserved and unrelated vernacular streetscapes."
Visited the site just two weeks ago and whats emerging is quite monolithic (in a good way!) with a number of large clefts allowing views right into the heart of the complex (and ot the intricate roof structure covering the foyer.). It's most impressive however from further out in Holyrood park where you get to see how the building will eventually spill out into the landscape, becoming part of a larger and quite stunning panorama.
I guess it's easier for me to see how things are going to turn out as I was priveleged enough to attend a lecture and workshop from Miralles not long before he passed away. There he explained clearly, yet poetically, his intentions for the site and how the building was to become a sort of pivot in the city, marking the point where urbanism dissolves to become the natural landscape. I only hope that the finished product hasn't strayed too far from what Miralles intended, although to my eyes it's looking pretty faithful. I'm convinced it will be a masterpiece and that Miralles, however his reputation is being abused now, will be recognised for his contribution to the city. Again, reminiscent of the Sydney Opera House story, where Utzon had his reputation ruined by scheming politicians, effectively thrown off the job for his "unconventional practices". It was precisely the lack of convention present in the architecture of Utzon and now in the case of Miralles that led and will lead to a great building.
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Postby alan d » Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:40 am

Well Lads, I've been an architect for almost twenty years and I can't tell yet if it will be a truly great building, certainly on the level that you are predicting BTH. The Fraser Enquiry has left us all wondering if it will be a true Miralles building really, RMJM seem to be being credited with pulling it all together, remember he died at a critical time. Let us hope it is as great as Sydney Opera House and better than Bilbao Guggenheim which has started to look a bit tired due to the staining.

Hugh, I remember HP did a piece, remarkably predicting what would happen. Can Paul post it? Also I recollect that the Governor of New South Wales was hounded out of office because of the "Scandal" of the Opera House but is now considered visionary.

That indicates to me the time scales we are talking about here.
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Postby Paul Clerkin » Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:25 pm

Enric Miralles' Scottish Parliament

To design Scotland's new Parliament building is surely, one of the world's more seductive commissions. There are bigger jobs to be had, but few so prestigious or so dangerous. The site down by Holyrood has the potential to make or break an architect's reputation. And now this sometimes contentious competition is down to the final shortlist of five, we find architects who clearly all want to win very badly indeed: they are prepared to risk seeing the foaming cup of victory turn into a political poisoned chalice. For the rest of us at this stage, the question is: are we after businesslike efficiency, wild originality, or something in between?


http://www.hughpearman.com/articles/cwa7.htm
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Postby alan d » Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:37 pm

Sorry I asked for it, now Paul. Forgotten what a poor judge of architecture Pearman is, myself.

Wilford second, really? Even with that big rotunda and the post modern add ons?

As for Vinoly, like a municipal library?
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Postby Hugh » Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:40 pm

I did another piece when Miralles won, saying how it was all inevitably going to go pear-shaped, but I don't think that was ever posted on the site.

No crystal ball needed. History tells us that big public projects like this always, but always, go off the rails. And that's down to the politicians.
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Postby alan d » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:27 pm

It's the Wilford bit that staggered me. Second?


.........even with the bloke walking his dog on the roof and simulatiously waving hello to the first minister and the N01 Poultry bits?


Only kiddin, Laurence.
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Postby Hugh » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:47 pm

Ahem, well, what can I say? I was having my cataracts dealt with at the time.

I did pick the winner, though. Thanks to the wonder of braille, I could feel those clever lumpy bits.

I would like to apologise right now for the lapse of taste evident in the above.
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Postby alan d » Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:11 pm

That's all right Hugh, obviously getting your retaliation in early.............. before my own comments on Gehry's Maggies Centre.

Long, long before I'll grant you. Still, it's a natural procedure here in Scotland.
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Postby Paul Clerkin » Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:50 pm

bitchy piece...

It’s quite nice, for the Record




Alan Taylor's Diary



“SCOTTISH Parliament Sensation” blazed the Daily Record last week over a photograph of the Holyrood debating chamber. The only sensation, however, was the Record’s approval of it, given the manure the red top has chucked at the ill-fated project in the past. You could almost feel teeth being pulled as a sub-editor bashed out the headline: “OK, OK … IT’S QUITE NICE REALLY.”
I gather that when George Reid, the Presiding Officer, saw it he took an even deeper drag on a fag than usual. “We couldn’t have done better if we’d written it ourselves,” remarked one cream-licking member of the Holyrood team. The Record’s parliamentary correspondent, Magnus Gardham, who has unparalleled knowledge of the architecture of Grimsby, declared that “the new Scottish Parliament building is set to outshine the other palace at Holyrood”. Hyperventilating like Howard Carter at the tomb of Tutankhamun, Mr Gardham drooled over “Saltire-shaped holes”, windows that have been made “like sunglasses” and “imposing concrete columns”.

Heady stuff. But nothing compared with the editorial, which offered the opinion that when Holyrood is finished it will make “Her Maj” feel like a poor neighbour. “And so she should,” added the Record, before going on to compare the vast oak-beamed ceiling in the debating chamber to that in the Sistine Chapel. At which point one turned to The Herald, whose scribe, Tom Gordon, described this 21st century Sistine Chapel as “the world’s biggest Ikea kitchen”. Could the truth lie somewhere in between the two?



http://www.sundayherald.com/39219
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Postby Paul Clerkin » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:13 am

Arch-critic reveals conspiracy theory

HAMISH MACDONELL


DAVID Black, an architecture journalist and arch-critic of the project, claimed yesterday that many of the problems at Holyrood could be attributed to a New Labour conspiracy.

He made a number of colourful claims including a suggestion that former government minister Peter Mandelson was directly involved in decisions over the location of the Holyrood building, as part of a project to "re-brand Britain".

Mr Black also claimed that he was approached by an unnamed but "significant" civil servant in late 1997, who told him that Holyrood was in the running before the official announcement.

Mr Black said he had forgotten the name of the man who warned that moving to Holyrood would lead to cost rises which in turn would "damage" the civil service and the government in Scotland.
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Postby alan d » Mon Feb 09, 2004 12:41 pm

even bitchier, Paul

Miralles: genius or bonkers?

http://www.sundayherald.com/39848
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Postby Hugh » Mon Feb 09, 2004 6:43 pm

To be a genius, you probably have to be bonkers.

But being bonkers does not make you a genius.
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Postby alan d » Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:12 am

........but with Miralles Hugh, you could never really tell. To listen to his gnomisms at a lecture often left you wondering
.......a Mackintosh chair was " A chair for not being there"
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Postby Hugh » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:49 pm

Once saw a large man at Hill House sit on an original Mackintosh chair - and it collapsed under him. But how did Miralles know?
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Postby alan d » Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:23 pm

Will Alsop?

Anyway, I know this does not merit a UK thread on its own but I was very dissapointed to read in the Guardian about Stephen Hodder's problems with Hackney.

I know you are an admirer of his work and he seems to be being treated very unfairly here.

Having your name plastered all over the paper and not being able to respond is ridiculous:mad:
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Postby Hugh » Tue Feb 10, 2004 6:24 pm

Hodder in Hackney, Grimshaw in Bath, lawyers everywhere - who'd design a wet building?
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Postby alan d » Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:52 pm

Talking about lawyers....how's this for a bit of acrid reportage, Hugh?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2090-1002357,00.html

I've no great love for RMJM and they can take care of themselves but this is completely out of order, in my view.

In Scotland you see.............. we eat our young. Wha's like us?
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Postby Hugh » Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:23 pm

Strange how the politicians never seem to get the blame, isn't it?

In China the design/construction process is so fast it's quite possible there's not time to run up an overspend.

Take Foster's Beijing Airport. Competition won November 2003. About a billion dollars, to be complete by 2008, please. Compare and contrast Rogers' Terminal 5 at Heathrow, just coming out of the ground after 15 years.
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Postby FIN » Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:02 pm

no inter party bolloxs to contend with.
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Postby alan d » Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:39 pm

Yep.......something to be said about the benefits of a dictatorship and getting things done quickly.

No An Taisce either;)
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Postby FIN » Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:12 pm

:D

wouldn't that be sweet
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