List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby PVC King » Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:14 pm

Great idea

I would however refine it slightly; if the double yellow lines were all identical it would create chaos; I would therefore suggest double lines but in 4 colours

1. Yellow for single line and double to indicate fine pending
2. Double red for clearway - i.e. you will be towed
3. Green - for open pay and display i.e. anyone can park there but must pay at stated time - parking charges could be done by postcode
4. Blue - residents parking only - fine pending

This would in combination with the wayfinding signage facilitate a consolodation of signage on a scale that would deliver real improvements in the public realm at a very modest cost; you could sting utility providers to repaint entire streets as a future condition of works licenses.
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby StephenC » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:01 am

I think you are on to something PVC.

Of course as I have said before the big elephant in the Signage Room is the Dept of Transport's Roads Manual which is often cited as the reason for the degree of signage on our streets. Using a colour system like about would mean changing the Manual.
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby Frank Taylor » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:30 am

I also like PVC's multicoloured lines idea.
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby goneill » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:31 pm

Regarding the parking signs I wrote to the council years ago about replacing them with coloured road markings, even if necessary stencilling hours of operation onto the street. The eventual reponse was as you say that it didn't meet DoE guidelines. One suspects that very few things DCC do meet any guidelines anyway but its a good excuse. Basically, if the Corpo doesn't come up with the idea itself, its not going to happen. It is interesting however to compare the visual clutter shown above to the parking arrangement on Shrewsbury Road, whose residents once had some influence. There, there are two poles at each end of the road and none(or few) in between. Also the council are completely disingenuous when they say they cannot show parking signs on lamposts and therefore have to plant signpoles within a few inches of them They can and do frequently place the signs on lampposts, so the poles must only be for using up budgets.
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:52 pm

when DCC set up pay and display parking on our road - at the request of the residents - I actually went and met the roads dept and discussed the position of the machine and the notices. I'll admit that I wanted to ensure neither were outside my own window but there were 2 locations that would land the machines and notices away from anyone's immediate doorstep. We also managed to use existing poles. Unless it is stipulated the lads in the van will feck them where they want

Just for the record I also stood outside my house and refused to allow NTL past the gate until they agreed to re-route their new wires along the eaves under the gutter rather than under my upper floor window cills and then take their old ones away.
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby dc3 » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:45 pm

Avid polehunters and others may be interested to know that Google Street View is going live for Ireland. That may kill off architectural tourism, if such exists!
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby PVC King » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:37 pm

DC you are a touch harsh; whilst the public realm has been neglected through the absence of a wider vision; many attractive period buildings are clustered in specific spaces to make Dublin a decent destination.

Stephen - please give credit for the idea where it is due - Kefu

On the Dept of Transport Road Manual it should be updated and remitted in pdf format to each motorist each year, assuming their road tax is paid online.

My own feeling on why the place is littered with poles is that local authorities derive significant revenues from parking charges; to ensure that utility companies don't spoil the party poles versus lines are used. Solution for 2010 - any utility company that wants to dig up any street must undertake to add lines behind them; any works that involve removal of the lines must be rentalised to reflect the value of the spaces for the period until they can produce income for the council again.,

I wonder are DCC capable of making money?
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby PVC King » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:01 pm

wearnicehats wrote:when DCC set up pay and display parking on our road - at the request of the residents - I actually went and met the roads dept and discussed the position of the machine and the notices. I'll admit that I wanted to ensure neither were outside my own window but there were 2 locations that would land the machines and notices away from anyone's immediate doorstep. We also managed to use existing poles. Unless it is stipulated the lads in the van will feck them where they want



Westminster City Council are removing their machines and have moved to a text based system which allows them to manage their enforcement team more effectively by knowing where to avoid areas of full occupancy. In Dublin we could go one better, have the text number painted on the street; as smarter software emerges you could at some future point in time check online where spaces are available.
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby markpb » Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:45 am

PVC King wrote:Westminster City Council are removing their machines and have moved to a text based system which allows them to manage their enforcement team more effectively by knowing where to avoid areas of full occupancy. In Dublin we could go one better, have the text number painted on the street; as smarter software emerges you could at some future point in time check online where spaces are available.


Dublin already has a system where you can pay by phone or by text but it operates alongside the existing cash system. I'd imagine it will take some time before the cash meters can be removed completely.
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby PVC King » Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:30 am

Collecting cash makes no sense whatsoever; a mix of retail coupons and text are the only way to go. Clearly moving away from mollycoddling motorists with signage which is now well understood to a painted system with minimum installation and maintenance costs is clearly a beneficial idea.
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby MT » Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:03 pm

Just had to post on this thread as it covers one of my bugbears: the seeming inability of authorities in the Republic to erect and maintain purposeful and aesthetically pleasing traffic signage.

I'm in Northern Ireland and the situation here is markedly better. However, I don't think this is due to some mythical Presbyterian fastidiousness. It simply seems to be some sort of problem of bureaucratic incompetence/poor organisation to my layman's mind. In this area you seem to have loads of it while for once we've managed to get by with less lunacy.

As has already been mentioned there's the glaring lack of a set of guidelines down there; apparently an update for the Traffic Signs Manual still hasn't been issued since the last one was deemed obsolete in the LATE 90s!!! (I think). How unearth are standards to be reinforced and maintained if no one has a clue what they are?

And now I will indulge in a bit of anti-Paddywackery! So much of the new motorway signage down there had to be replaced due to initial amateurish attempts that shrieked made-up-as-we-went-along-on-the-back-of-an-envelope-late-on-a-Friday-afternoon. Even the ‘improved’ replacements seem to have been developed in a similar short-notice fashion; and all of this done with no published official guidelines. Do you think the Dutch/Germans/French/British attempted to sign their new motorway networks in such an ad hoc, unplanned manner?

And similarly, in this area of signage as well, the lack of foresight and a proper signage manual reinforces the image of the stereotypical Irish mindset. A chaotic lack of focus and a sort of make it up as you go along/sure it'll be grand with a shrug of the shoulders outlook. This always seems to translate into three predictable steps: no planning, poor implementation, and little maintenance.

I think that up here due to benevolent English colonial guidance;) the Highways Agency's TRSDG is adhered to by the Roads Service. And that's another difference. I believe all signage installation/maintenance is carried out up here by this quango. Now, far be it for me to champion the quango-ocracy but in an Irish context of woeful county councillors/managers, and the small and inherently incompetent nature of Irish local authorities, maybe a similar centralised state agency might be the least worst option down there as well.

Believe it or not the folks responsible for the UK's world renowned traffic signage and its bible, the TRSDG, put a bid in with the Republic's DoT for the revamp of the TSM. But as might well now seem predictable with all that we've learnt in hindsight about the land of strokes and mutual back scratching a local firm got the job ahead of this highly esteemed agency. Of course, like a bad Anglo Irish loan, the return of a new manual seems to have never materialised. I wonder was it a FAS contract?

So there you have it: Ireland, probably the only country in the EU with no official traffic signage guidelines. Unbelievable! Another reminder that An Irish RM was a documentary, not fiction.:eek:
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby Andrew Duffy » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:11 pm

kefu wrote:I have a fabulous idea. What if we got rid of all parking signs and simply used a double yellow line as indicating no parking here ever.
And then, rather than have five million poles in the city, simply have the parking details: zone, time restrictions, day restrictions etc, marked on all of the nearby cash parking machines.
Would that work?


I'm pretty sure that parking fines can't be enforced if the signs aren't present - lines can wear away or be dug up by contractors.

Of course, the answer is to change the parking byelaws, introduce proper bonding and serious penalties for degenerate contractors, and make sure lines are inspected regularly, but we can't expect something like that, can we? This is Ireland, after all, where "fuck it, it'll do" is the national slogan.
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby StephenC » Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:02 pm

From today's Irish Times

An Taisce says unused signage poles 'cluttering' city
OLIVIA KELLY

MORE THAN 100 bare and redundant poles are littering the streets of Dublin city centre, according to a new audit carried out by national heritage organisation An Taisce.

An Taisce has asked Dublin City Council to remove those poles that no longer carry signage and are leading to a “degradation of the visual character and attractiveness of the city”.

The organisation originally wrote to the council last June in relation to a handful of poles in the prime tourist areas of the city, which it recommended be removed before the start of the holiday peak in July and August.

However, when these poles had not been removed by the beginning of last month, An Taisce’s planning spokesman Kevin Duff decided to make a more comprehensive inventory of unnecessary poles in the city.

Mr Duff has photographed more than 100 bare poles in the city, several of which are outside historic buildings and Georgian streetscapes including Dublin Castle, the Four Courts, the Custom House, and St Stephen’s Green. Many of the poles have been void of any signage for several years, Mr Duff said.

“There is no excuse for allowing this mess to build up over the years. When poles are no longer needed they should be removed, instead new poles seem to be constantly added.”

The council has recently erected a number of tall poles around the city to accommodate its new “wayfinding” tourist signpost system. While the signs which have thus far been added were attractive, Mr Duff said, they should not have been erected until the old poles were removed.

“Superimposing these signposts on the old redundant poles is just adding to the mess and excess of signs and clutter in the streets.”

In addition to the unsightliness of poles, they created an “obstacle course” for the visually and physically impaired.

The proliferation of redundant poles was likely to have been a factor in the city missing out on Unesco World Heritage Site designation for Georgian Dublin, Mr Duff said. It was also likely to scupper Dublin’s bid to be designated as World Capital of Design for 2014, he said.

“Talk about putting the cart before the horse. If we can’t get something as basic as signage right how do we think we’ll get design capital designation.”

A spokeswoman for the council said it was dealing with the original poles it received notification of last June, and would investigate the others brought to its intention earlier this week.


My emphasis at the end because the suggestion from the Council is that it is unaware of all these empty poles!

I would suggest that the 100 odd poles identified above is just a portion of the overall number. I think a few additional letters and photographs to Dublin City Council would help give further impetus to their removal. All hands on deck!
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby lostexpectation » Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:58 pm

could they not build some sort of pole that lifts out of frame, under a pre cut slab
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby soulsearcher » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:08 pm

I think there is scope for an interesting book here: 'Poles of Dublin'. There are so many hanging around now you might say they have become part of the dublin vernacular.
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby goneill » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:02 am

On a related topic, I noticed on a recent visit to Cambridge that the double yellow lines seen to be about half the width of our ones, making them much less obtrusive, as well as using less paint. Double and single red lines are used to denote clearways which must save a fortune on poles.
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby Devin » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:46 am

The Sunday Times had the poles story also yesterday, below.

goneill, that in Cambridge is the kind of reductive thing that's needed here - reducing the number and size of signs on a piece of street, and therefore the impact. Same with road painting. Basically treating a lot of the place for what it is - a historic town.


Council vows to remove 'eyesore' poles

Niall Toner


DUBLIN city council has pledged to remove more than 100 signage poles in an attempt to clear the capital of the "eyesores".

The council said this weekend it would take away the mostly galvanised poles within three months, prompted in part by Kevin Duff, an environmental activist, who posted photographs of each of them on Archiseek, a planning, architecture and environment forum.

Duff, an officer with An Taisce, the national heritage trust, also lodged an official complaint with Frank Crowley, the council's traffic inspector.

In a letter to the council, Duff criticised the 2011-17 City Development Plan and its objectives of "seeking to uphold the quality of the city core as the premier cultural, social and business district" and the "provision of a first-rate public realm".

He said the plan was "almost laughably removed from the reality on the ground" and that "a massive cull of poles and other fixtures from the streets" is required.

Duff's photos show quirky and embarrassing urban eyesores. At the junction St Nicholas Street and Back Lane in Dublin's Christchurch, for example, there are four empty galvanised steel poles within a stretch of only a few metres.

Another image shows a set of parallel poles blocking the footpath in Marlborough Street near the Department of Education. Others are to be found close to City Hall.

Duff says the city would need just a third of the number of poles on the streets if it streamlined and combined signs while removing unnecessary and redundant items.

He referred to a new signage system being put in place to direct pedestrians to historical and cultural sites at a cost of €4.1m, which will involve more poles.

"They are putting in a new wayfinder system against a background of years of appalling clutter," Duff said.

Dublin city council defended the new infrastructure: "It is the intention of the city council to rationalise the level of clutter in the public domain. This will be achieved by the removal of existing signs and poles that are in the vicinity of the new systems' infrastructure."

Zombie poles are not just an issue in the city centre. Barry Ward, a Fine Gael councillor, is a veteran campaigner for their removal in Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown and moved a motion aimed at cleaning up the borough's poles over a year ago. The motion was passed unanimously," he says. "But I think it was misinterpreted. The motion and the response was to set up an email address for the reporting of ''unauthorised poles', which is a different thing."

Ward reckons the council has the potential to save thousands of euros by doing an audit of all signage poles.

Tom McHugh, director of transportation in Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, said the council would remove any unnecessary poles. "It is our policy and practice to remove signage and poles that are unused."

Duff says he could have found more than 100 poles for his survey in the city centre. "You could have easily kept going and there could be twice or three times that amount."

© The Sunday Times (3 Oct. 2010)
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby goneill » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:20 pm

On another related topic, the council insists (obliged, it says by the NDP) on retaining in situ a large ugly sign on Waterloo Road, on two poles, proclaiming that the ineffective, ugly multipole eyesore that is is the Waterloo Bus corridor was funded by the NDP some four years after its completion. Its so old, the speed bumps, which are made in brick, have already mostly disintegrated in the frost. They have little purpose anyway being almost exactly the same width as that between car wheels. The "cast iron" cannon style bollards have been knocked over, the bumps on Pembroke Lane were dug up and never repaired by the drainage department, and the whole thing is blocked at 4.30 every afternoon by the clampers who usually get 4 - 8 cars and keep them there until 7.30 when the bus lane function ends. And they know all about this.
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby PVC King » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:18 pm

the council insists (obliged, it says by the NDP) on retaining in situ a large ugly sign on Waterloo Road


I thought election posters had to be down after 7 days :confused:
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby Service charge » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:01 pm

Nice to see the board doing some good. Well done to the OP.
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby aj » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:57 pm

Good work
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby StephenC » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:43 pm

What a snoozefest it is waiting for the new wayfinder signage to appear! Perhaps it's lost it's way. This initiative was announced at the start of the summer remember. Obviously busy busy times in DCC (not).

Any not a dickiebird more about all those empty poles. Again, many of the offending poles were reported in June.

Now I know DCC will say they havent a bean due to the cuts etc but the fact is that they are still employing and paying the same number of staff as before. I havent heard of any major layoffs at the Council. So what are these staff doing for their pennies. If there are no major infrastructure projects taking place then surely its a great time to do a bit of tidying up.
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby markpb » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:48 pm

StephenC wrote:What a snoozefest it is waiting for the new wayfinder signage to appear! Perhaps it's lost it's way. This initiative was announced at the start of the summer remember. Obviously busy busy times in DCC (not).


I wonder if the signs had to be re-done after someone pointed out that they will (in the future) be in breech of legislation because the Irish was not first and was not given equal prominence to English. It's just a guess though. Someone on boards.ie has a photo of one of the signs and pointed out the problems with it. He said he was planning on complaining about every authority that disregards this (fairly pointless) piece of legislation.
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby StephenC » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:53 pm

Jesus! this country
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Re: List of poles to be removed by Dublin City Council

Postby Service charge » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:12 pm

Jesus as in:

1. we have legislation governing which comes first, cause it clearly matters!!!; or
2. we have a council that can't read?
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