Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby PlanE » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:42 am

Only doctors, vets and dentists can write prescriptions, only judges can give sentences, priests give absolution, teachers mark exams, licensed bus drivers drive buses, the list goes on. Why shouldn't it be the same for architects? We have it bad enough, God knows.

Lets face it, good planning requires good design.

The countryside (in particular), and towns have undeniably been ruined over the last 40 years, mainly through unqualified cowboys and developers allowed to run rampant, providing for individual interests, all in the name of 'competition'.

The last Building Control Bill (and the Eurocratic system responsible for it), has not gone far enough. Protection of title should have been extended to include protection of services, and thereby protection of the 'common good', the fundamental aim of good planning.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby rumpelstiltskin » Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:44 am

Some of the most beautiful cities in England were destroyed by architects during the 20th century, so let's not be one-sided about it.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby markstephens » Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:46 am

Well said PlanE, won't happen tho'
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby RKQ » Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:56 am

PlanE wrote:The last Building Control Bill (and the Eurocratic system responsible for it), has not gone far enough. Protection of title should have been extended to include protection of services, and thereby protection of the 'common good', the fundamental aim of good planning.


Sounds quite Fundamentalist alright.
Many RIAI members can hold their heads in shame as they were also highly involved in all aspects of construction over the last 40 years.

Quite a frightening post, shame on you.:eek:
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby henno » Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:07 am

PlanE wrote:Only doctors, vets and dentists can write prescriptions, only judges can give sentences, priests give absolution, teachers mark exams, licensed bus drivers drive buses, the list goes on. Why shouldn't it be the same for architects? We have it bad enough, God knows.

Lets face it, good planning requires good design.

The countryside (in particular), and towns have undeniably been ruined over the last 40 years, mainly through unqualified cowboys and developers allowed to run rampant, providing for individual interests, all in the name of 'competition'.

The last Building Control Bill (and the Eurocratic system responsible for it), has not gone far enough. Protection of title should have been extended to include protection of services, and thereby protection of the 'common good', the fundamental aim of good planning.


Absolutely not.

the basis to equate good planning to good design SHOULD be on the basis that bad design gets refused!!! Thats where this argument should be focused.

Is Mrs Murphy from no 49 supposed to engage Mr HRH RIAI to 'design' her disabled extension? There are many 'architects' coming straight from college that couldnt tell you what TGD disabled assess is covered by. And is she then bound to pay 'suggested' riai rates?? Get Serious.

The consumer must be protected from cartels that this proposal would create. To restrict a service to one select group is so far at odds with good consumer protect practise that it simply couldnt happen... could it?? Whos to say this isnt the end-game of the BCA??
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby Wild Bill » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:25 pm

PlanE wrote:The last Building Control Bill (and the Eurocratic system responsible for it), has not gone far enough. Protection of title should have been extended to include protection of services, and thereby protection of the 'common good', the fundamental aim of good planning.


...and world domination, after all it's for their own good !
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby DOC » Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:59 pm

As far as I know, in Germany only architects can submit planning applications. If it's good enough for them......:rolleyes:
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby foremanjoe » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:45 pm

Is it just me or is there a very strong whiff of self-preservationism about archiseek these days, and the profession in general?

It's survival of the fittest lads, deal with it.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby irishguy » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:07 pm

PlanE wrote:Only doctors, vets and dentists can write prescriptions, only judges can give sentences, priests give absolution, teachers mark exams, licensed bus drivers drive buses, the list goes on. Why shouldn't it be the same for architects? We have it bad enough, God knows.

Lets face it, good planning requires good design.

The countryside (in particular), and towns have undeniably been ruined over the last 40 years, mainly through unqualified cowboys and developers allowed to run rampant, providing for individual interests, all in the name of 'competition'.

The last Building Control Bill (and the Eurocratic system responsible for it), has not gone far enough. Protection of title should have been extended to include protection of services, and thereby protection of the 'common good', the fundamental aim of good planning.


Is this the RIAI's way of keeping there members in employment :D

Its a bit overkill really for extensions and the like
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby missarchi » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:36 pm

Architects are a reflection of society and all the differences it entails...

An Architect does not guarantee good design and never will...
Design in architecture practices is not benchmarked internally or externally you only see the good stuff... Plan E you should draw up an architecture rating from make like the BER from...
I think there would be many serious mistakes in planning applications if just architects where involved... Some practices have internal crits but it's the exception rather than the rule... Quality control = planning = government not tech vs tect

architect = client (maybe you should focus on this)

Most of the more senior architects have forgotten how to draw as well...
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby PlanE » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:31 am

rumpelstiltskin wrote:Some of the most beautiful cities in England were destroyed by architects during the 20th century, so let's not be one-sided about it.

such as? York, Lancaster, Cambridge, Oxford, all still beautiful cities
markstephens wrote:Well said PlanE

knew I could count on good sense from my Mayo comrades ;)
henno wrote:Absolutely not.

the basis to equate good planning to good design SHOULD be on the basis that bad design gets refused!!! Thats where this argument should be focused.


and who decides good design? not the planners, surely !! I would have thought that the appropriate forum for inculcating good design is the colleges of architecture.
henno wrote:Is Mrs Murphy from no 49 supposed to engage Mr HRH RIAI to 'design' her disabled extension? There are many 'architects' coming straight from college that couldnt tell you what TGD disabled assess is covered by. And is she then bound to pay 'suggested' riai rates??

after doing the Part 3 (ie. not straight from college), they are expected to know the regulations. And a good technician in support can provide help here, too
henno wrote:... that it simply couldnt happen... could it?? Whos to say this isnt the end-game of the BCA??

perhaps it is....
Wild Bill wrote:...and world domination !

I never thought of that ! good idea ! :D
missarchi wrote:Architects are a reflection of society and all the differences it entails...

An Architect does not guarantee good design and never will...
Design in architecture practices is not benchmarked internally or externally you only see the good stuff... Plan E you should draw up an architecture rating from make like the BER from...
I think there would be many serious mistakes in planning applications if just architects where involved... Some practices have internal crits but it's the exception rather than the rule... Quality control = planning = government not tech vs tect

architect = client (maybe you should focus on this)

Most of the more senior architects have forgotten how to draw as well...


Your comments are just capitulation.

As I said above, if 5-7 years of training doesn't produce good designers, nothing can, but at least we should aspire to good design; I am well aware of architects producing dross, but I don't think it's the norm, and may well be a result of outside pressures such as commercial interests or client wishes. However, it is the norm that non-architect produced work is dire, and I make no apologies for saying that - I have first-hand knowledge of much that goes on regionally.

An architect does not = client. He or she should provide the best possible advice to the client. A client's interests are generally self-oriented, while a proper planning regime would ensure that the client must pay heed to common interests, such as history and context, all in the common good. And I repeat, if an architect can't draw (or detail or even know his regulations), then he should have and most likely will have good support in architects + technologists + technicians.

The aim must be an improved built and lived environment.

As DOC says, if it works for Germany...
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby missarchi » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:23 am

PlanE wrote:As DOC says, if it works for Germany...


There would be no tado...
There would be no scarpa...
Michael reynolds...
ect ect...
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby Wild Bill » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:05 pm

PlanE wrote:I never thought of that ! good idea ! :...


Every business should have an expansion plan....:D
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby StephenC » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:23 pm

Personally I think that only planners should make planning applications. As a lot of you obviously dont get...there is more to the planning process than design.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby PlanE » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:50 pm

StephenC wrote:Personally I think that only planners should make planning applications. As a lot of you obviously dont get...there is more to the planning process than design.


Ridiculous suggestion. Design is not one of your strong points, as a lot of you planners don't get....
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby henno » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:56 pm

Obviously what this thread has shown, as most of us understand, is that there is much more to a planning application than a "design".... so i hope the initial proposal has been shown to be illogical.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby PlanE » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:04 pm

henno wrote:Obviously what this thread has shown, as most of us understand, is that there is much more to a planning application than a "design".... so i hope the initial proposal has been shown to be illogical.


is that why you said this ? (below)

henno wrote:the basis to equate good planning to good design SHOULD be on the basis that bad design gets refused!!! Thats where this argument should be focused.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby StephenC » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:40 pm

PlanE wrote:Ridiculous suggestion. Design is not one of your strong points, as a lot of you planners don't get....


Granted (pardon the pun). Thats why there are architects. But my point remains: making planning applications and properly planning developments is about more than simply design. For that reason planners, working with architects and engineers, should prepare planning applications.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby PlanE » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:08 pm

StephenC wrote:Granted (pardon the pun). Thats why there are architects. But my point remains: making planning applications and properly planning developments is about more than simply design. For that reason planners, working with architects and engineers, should prepare planning applications.


Well, first of all, planners DO work with the above in preparing applications. I have worked with several planning consultants in private practice, in preparing applications and local area plans, etc.

Secondly, your original statement said only planners should make planning applications. But accepting your later qualification, I'm not sure it's even a good idea taking on planning consultants, at least in many cases. It can give an unfair weighting to a bad design or wrongful development when planners 'peddle' planners. It's a bit like County Councils, the OPW or Bord na Mona making a planning application - was the result ever in any doubt?
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby PlanE » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:02 pm

irishguy wrote:
Its a bit overkill really for extensions and the like


I had this discussion with a friend of mine today, who made a similar comment. Its not overkill. For the same extension a plumber can't be avoided nor an electrician nor a roofer. Yet many people think they can bypass the architect, and thereby bypass architecture. This is wrong. And it stems from the 'anything goes' attitude towards planning and development.

That said, 'negligible' extensions under 40 sq.m., porches, and so on (with certain provisos) don't require planning anyway. However, developments deemed to make an impact should be carefully considered in design terms, for this reason alone. And I can think of several minor extensions by ODOS, Boyd Cody and others that have offered an awful lot more real value than might otherwise have been expected. The argument remains.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby henno » Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:51 pm

PlanE wrote:is that why you said this ? (below)


they are not exclusive...

:confused:
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby jackscout » Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:48 pm

StephenC wrote:Granted (pardon the pun). Thats why there are architects. But my point remains: making planning applications and properly planning developments is about more than simply design. For that reason planners, working with architects and engineers, should prepare planning applications.


If this logic is to be continued through the planning process then the design element of the planning application should be accessed by an architect and not a planner, assuming that the planner is not a architect. Each profession should have their imput into the planning decision process. In many local authorities this doesn't happen, I know of Local Authorthoies who don't even have an architect employed!

The poor planning we have experienced can't be solely attributed to design. Local Authorities are very much to blame as they are meant to be the guardians,however many have dismissed Regional Planning Guildelines and other guidelines for their own gain, one only has to look at places like Carlow, Athy Abbeyleix, Portlaoise, Gorey,Cavan and their surrounding villages etc which were allowed develop as part of the greater Dublin Area commuter area. Flood Plains and potential flood plains, were zoned by local authorities (often I admit against the advice of the local authority professionals) yet what did these professional do about it....

At the end of the day a designer needs to earn a wage to put food on the table like everyone else (local authority officials included) and unfortunately have to take on board their clients requirements, if they wish to get paid.

If architects believe they are the best designers, then they should not fear competition.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby PlanE » Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:59 pm

henno wrote:they are not exclusive...

:confused:


I'm not going to quibble over trifles, but in one statement you said (good) planning equates - equals - design, in the other you said they don't equal as one is about more than the other. Anyway, your 'argument' is all over the place. Architects are undisputably qualified to make planning applications, others are not.

jackscout wrote:If architects believe they are the best designers, then they should not fear competition.


I agree with everything you said up till this end point. Unfortunately much development gets done by people who either couldn't care less or want it done their own way. Apart from the fact this is not good policy, it sadly shows that the common view is that the 'best design' is unnecessary and obstructive - so it's not always about competition.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby henno » Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:32 pm

If you dont understand my argument, fine, thats more a reflection on you than me.

PlanE wrote: Architects are undisputably qualified to make planning applications, others are not.
.


I beg your pardon, but that is laughable!
The scale of egotism on this forum is so vast it borders on the vulgar.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby foremanjoe » Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:57 pm

henno wrote:The scale of egotism on this forum is so vast it borders on the vulgar.


You only say that 'cos you're jealous...
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