Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby reddy » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:52 am

garethace wrote:That is the trouble too, Liam and others screwed you down way too much. You have to remember that Liam or many of his directors did not have architectural training. I would have worked tirelessly inside of Zoe developments to ensure a better deal on behalf of architecture. The question is, when the larger portions start to flow your way, what are you going to do with it?

Reddy, you need to study my essays published here about the really innovative and good things that happened inside Zoe developments. How their collaborating system between architects and engineers worked in particular. To that end, you really need to chase down Zoe's past architectural director Michael Tweed and fully pick his brains. He is the guy with the ultimate answers, not me.

Michael holds the key to the way forward in this country for architects. Michael is the only world class architect we have. Sean O'Laoire made a grievous mistake in under estimating him. To hell with it, I would make Michael Tweed the next RIAI president and really see some sparks begin to fly! Your institute has his address and phone number. Michael is Norman Foster standard, I can guarantee you.

Brian O' Hanlon


Well to your first question, more fees could perhaps mean more time and thought could be devoted to design and the poor wages, horrible hours and incessant stress you talked about earlier would be reduced.

Zoe may well have been very innovative but the standard of development that they produced was in no way outstanding or innovative. Personally I'd look to someone like Urban Splash for that kind of example.

I'll be perfectly honest - I've never heard of Michael Tweed and I'm sure he's an excellent project manager but to compare him to Foster is a huge huge exaggeration.
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby missarchi » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:09 pm

Which are the 7 companies that have gone into liquidation since I'm living on the moon?
enjoying spacewalking

have we got a before and after head count?
I was still shocked companies where still employing people in 2008...
first out best dressed :)
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby what? » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:56 pm

Administrator,

I lodge a request for the removal of Garethace from the site post-haste.

Citing reasons: his unbelievable irrelevance and diffuse ramblings.

Please make only one thread that he is allowed to access where he can reply to his own long-winded non-sense with ever increasing levels of extraneous senselessness
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby garethace » Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:48 pm

reddy wrote:Well to your first question, more fees could perhaps mean more time and thought could be devoted to design and the poor wages, horrible hours and incessant stress you talked about earlier would be reduced.

Zoe may well have been very innovative but the standard of development that they produced was in no way outstanding or innovative. Personally I'd look to someone like Urban Splash for that kind of example.

I'll be perfectly honest - I've never heard of Michael Tweed and I'm sure he's an excellent project manager but to compare him to Foster is a huge huge exaggeration.


Thanks for taking the time to respond Reddy. To be honest with you, I am busy at the moment on a lot of other stuff. The last thing I have time to do at the moment is worry about the RIAI's problems. But I understand that from the point of view of my future and many others, the RIAI needs to be forced into a discussion. That is why I formally submit a request to the president of the RIAI and other members for further discussion in person.

The point you make about poor wages and horrible hours is a good point. For sure, the RIAI needs to make itself into a stronger lobby to fight for better working conditions. From my own experience, I know that they border on the edge of health and safety standards. I have the repetitive strain injury to prove it. But there are the same problems and worse in the medical field for young doctors. It isn't fair. All of those young kids, architects and doctors are the brightest and the best. They cannot contribute nearly as much as they could, because they are worked to skin and bone. That is why I went into project management, so I could do a lot more on their behalf. To understand at what stage in the pipeline the real problems are. Sometimes it is counter intuitive, the answers aren't as obvious as you think.

Some professionals have had serious health problems, both mental and physical. I know that because I have helped young members of both medical and architectural professions through their recovery. The mental health recovery process is very difficult and often you feel powerless to do anything to help. This is another reason why a discussion has to happen, with both sides fully present at the table in relation to professions, architects, doctors, everyone. The discussion should not happen in the dimension of money alone.

That is the real problem with the current discussion about Mary Coughlan's statement. There is much more to it than that. I was too chicken to go ahead with a career in architecture in a traditional sense. I was aware that I wouldn't last physically or mentally, as so many have to do. I applaud you all. It took ten years for me to finally throw in the towel with my studies at Bolton Street. So I know all about it. I may seem to many like an unlikely candidate. But I want to be part of the solution for Ireland. I wouldn't be wasting my time here if that wasn't the case.

http://designcomment.blogspot.com/2009/07/mary-coughlans-challenge.html

The real reason we do need Michael Tweed sitting at the table today, is that Michael has lived through the exact same stress in numerous consultancy practices in Dublin you correctly described. But he has implemented a different model - albeit for a nasty developer - but it works, I have seen it in operation. His views on the matter certainly deserve to be listened to by the RIAI if nothing else. He is a man with a story to tell. That is why I suggest the RIAI do not waste anymore time in gaining the benefits of his experience at Zoe developments. He is a nice guy Michael Tweed. Much less of a persistent asshole like me.

Brian O' Hanlon
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby garethace » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:18 pm

I'll be perfectly honest - I've never heard of Michael Tweed and I'm sure he's an excellent project manager but to compare him to Foster is a huge huge exaggeration.


I spent around €40 million for Zoe in construction in 2007/08. The number at Murray O'Laoire, the practice run by the RIAI president was around €200 million and they had dozens working for them. Michael Tweed worked at Zoe for five times longer than I did. That will give you some idea. Michael really is the big cheese. His opinions deserve to be listened to at least.

Respectfully,

Brian O' Hanlon
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby sinnerboy » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:53 pm

sinnerboy wrote:I have e mailed a protest to my 2 local FF TD's ( cc'd to my local FG TD ) and all my local FF LA councilors ( again cc'd to my local FG + LAB councillors )

Just in case any of you wish to take the matter up with your local TD

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=12030&CatID=138


2 replies - 1 from an FF TD , 1 from an FF councilor

Both expressed sympathetic platitude and tried to assure me that FF were doing all in power to make things right . The councillor said he personally stopped listening to Swarey long ago

Please - can more of us express our reaction to these people ?
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:08 pm

garethace wrote:Thanks for taking the time to respond Reddy. To be honest with you, I am busy at the moment on a lot of other stuff. The last thing I have time to do at the moment is worry about the RIAI's problems. But I understand that from the point of view of my future and many others, the RIAI needs to be forced into a discussion. That is why I formally submit a request to the president of the RIAI and other members for further discussion in person.

The point you make about poor wages and horrible hours is a good point. For sure, the RIAI needs to make itself into a stronger lobby to fight for better working conditions. From my own experience, I know that they border on the edge of health and safety standards. I have the repetitive strain injury to prove it. But there are the same problems and worse in the medical field for young doctors. It isn't fair. All of those young kids, architects and doctors are the brightest and the best. They cannot contribute nearly as much as they could, because they are worked to skin and bone. That is why I went into project management, so I could do a lot more on their behalf. To understand at what stage in the pipeline the real problems are. Sometimes it is counter intuitive, the answers aren't as obvious as you think.

Some professionals have had serious health problems, both mental and physical. I know that because I have helped young members of both medical and architectural professions through their recovery. The mental health recovery process is very difficult and often you feel powerless to do anything to help. This is another reason why a discussion has to happen, with both sides fully present at the table in relation to professions, architects, doctors, everyone. The discussion should not happen in the dimension of money alone.

That is the real problem with the current discussion about Mary Coughlan's statement. There is much more to it than that. I was too chicken to go ahead with a career in architecture in a traditional sense. I was aware that I wouldn't last physically or mentally, as so many have to do. I applaud you all. It took ten years for me to finally throw in the towel with my studies at Bolton Street. So I know all about it. I may seem to many like an unlikely candidate. But I want to be part of the solution for Ireland. I wouldn't be wasting my time here if that wasn't the case.

http://designcomment.blogspot.com/2009/07/mary-coughlans-challenge.html

The real reason we do need Michael Tweed sitting at the table today, is that Michael has lived through the exact same stress in numerous consultancy practices in Dublin you correctly described. But he has implemented a different model - albeit for a nasty developer - but it works, I have seen it in operation. His views on the matter certainly deserve to be listened to by the RIAI if nothing else. He is a man with a story to tell. That is why I suggest the RIAI do not waste anymore time in gaining the benefits of his experience at Zoe developments. He is a nice guy Michael Tweed. Much less of a persistent asshole like me.

Brian O' Hanlon



It's interesting that you have a pseudonym and a real name because your delusions of grandeur mixed with the meek surrender to an opposing view definitely speak volumes. You should write less and get more fresh air. I'm sure your special friend in Zoe was a talented man in helping to shape the shoe box king's aura if not the architectural portfolio of Zoe but I fear that your particular verbose schizophrenia is not really what this country needs at present.
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby garethace » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:38 pm

wearnicehats wrote:It's interesting that you have a pseudonym and a real name because your delusions of grandeur mixed with the meek surrender to an opposing view definitely speak volumes. You should write less and get more fresh air. I'm sure your special friend in Zoe was a talented man in helping to shape the shoe box king's aura if not the architectural portfolio of Zoe but I fear that your particular verbose schizophrenia is not really what this country needs at present.


We'll see, we'll see.

I might be a complete idiot selling crazy on a message board. No arguing that I suppose now. But Irish Architecture does still await it's Amory Lovins to show it the way forward. Whatever you think about me, you should investigate or get involved with Feasta.org. I know they have a couple of architects working already with them, to devise interesting new schemes. I was hoping that Feasta would participate somehow at UCD What Now? But they probably have their plate full already. I wrote something else to express my ideas for Irish architecture here:

http://designcomment.blogspot.com/2009/07/value-for-money.html


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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby garethace » Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:01 am

Link:

http://designcomment.blogspot.com/2009/07/mccarthy-report.html

I wanted to quickly follow up with something about the McCarthy Report. What it might mean for the architect. It expands upon the point I was making in the earllier post, Value for Money.

http://designcomment.blogspot.com/2009/07/value-for-money.html

Brian O' Hanlon


I took a very good look at Frank Duffy's UK consultancy DEGW around last December and January. I was very interested in the package that Frank was offering to his client. The biggest client that Frank works with is the UK government, in looking at ways to better utilise the building stock to house the civil service. What are we currently looking to do in Ireland? The McCarthy report. The Royal Institute of Architects of Ireland needs to wake up fast. Or else the Irish state will be forced to go to the UK to find the level of skills in requires following the McCarthy report.

Architects could play a real part in that process if they only looked beyond their existing business model. But it requires architects to sell a package which goes beyond mere fancy colours, aesthetic use of glass and clean, crisp, modern lines. Those bits are certainly a help, but the architectural profession cannot seem to go beyond that. Architects need to get involved in business management and organisation theory. That is what the Irish state requires from architect as we go through the painful re-structuring of the civil service.

Building stock and running costs are going to have to be reviewed. Sketch designs are going to be needed. Please, look beyond your egos' and those clean, crisp modern lines. Re-modelling and re-use considered in a thoughtful way that makes the best use of the Irish state's money. Architects and engineers should be paid for finding ways to spend less money. Not the opposite.

This is what I hope Taoiseach Brian Cowen means by the expression, the Smart Economy. The quantity surveyors have known this for the last ten years. They watched helplessly as thousands of houses were built in the wrong place. They watched helplessly as factory units were built on IDA land that served no useful purpose. Builders were paid and professionals were paid to sign off.

The Irish state needs to sell this re-structuring process to its civil service as a positive step forward in a new direction for everyone. Architects could certainly play an important role in that. If only they began to explore outside of their own narrow field. In order for that to happen it requires the business model for architecture to fundamentally change. It seems like a real pity to me. Architects I know are the most intelligent and nice people. But they think that clients pay them for clean, crisp, lines. When in fact that is what people pay their tailor for.

That is why I reference the example of hospital projects. When I worked for clients such as Glanbia it was all about process flows, how things move throughout the food production plant. Indeed, many of the project options we drew up for clients never were built. We were still paid however, because we were able to put together a package which incorporated the 'food safe' food flows with some preliminary analysis for what different options would cost. We would include some cross disciplinary structural and architectural design and so forth.

The industrial clients had a good attitude, the more you spent at design stage the less you spent at build stage. But the engineering and project management consultancy I worked for had a fresh attitude about design too. I recently heard an architect from Norman Foster's office describe project managers as 'the enemy'. I suggest to that architect who was fortunate enough to pick up a lecturing position at Trinity college, that he should go and work for a project manager like I did and get out of his cocoon.

What I see happening in multi million euro hospital extension projects is the things is rushed forward and built by the architect. Only then is the food flow and process fitted into that by the hospital management and the thing doesn't work. Who's fault is that? Remember the architect had to build something in order make a salary and pay his or her staff. I humbly suggest that the health service, like the Irish developers would be financially better off if it didn't build half of what it built. At least not until they know what they are doing.

The Irish Architect magazine certainly isn't helping to highlight the problem of millions leaking out of the State's treasury because of botched up building projects. It tries to distract our attention to all of those nice clean, crisp and modern lines. The Irish Architect magazine needs to stop doing that now. Or you will permanently bankrupt the profession of both good ideas and jobs.

The architect's relationship with construction is one that went sour in this country a long, long time ago. From what I have seen of what architects describe as a construction document these days, the contractor is no longer gaining a useful service from his architect. The money simply isn't in the business anymore for the architect to know enough about construction. You see the examples of that all over when you look at public projects designed and built by architects. This requires further examination.
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby lostexpectation » Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:36 am

i think she way out of line and wrong but wasn't she referring to fees rather the jobs
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby missarchi » Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:56 am

Are you suggesting a engineer was behind the new contracts from a few years ago?
The T man seemed to change that anyway or did he?

Anyway Ireland's big test is in the next few years...
I doubt much will happen however...
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby sinnerboy » Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:18 pm

Having spent 1985 - 1995 in economic exile I am dismayed that this thread has taken such a discursive course . There appears to be no desire to correct the Tanaiste and influence govt. policy towards us .

Looks like another decade in London beckons
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:43 pm

sinnerboy wrote:Having spent 1985 - 1995 in economic exile I am dismayed that this thread has taken such a discursive course . There appears to be no desire to correct the Tanaiste and influence govt. policy towards us .

Looks like another decade in London beckons


if you ignore the ramblings of garethace and the direct responses to his posts, and the indecipherable meanderings of Missarchi, I think you'll find this thread united in damning the stupid woman. It has also directed people to the proper channels for airing a grievance, which many have done - again, if you follow the links and also the Irish Times letter pages over the last three days. No-one is taking this lying down. You can stay in London if you like but I was there last week and as far as I can tell it's very much a case of same shite, different arse.
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby sinnerboy » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:00 pm

wearnicehats wrote:if you ignore the ramblings of garethace and the direct responses to his posts, and the indecipherable meanderings of Missarchi, I think you'll find this thread united in damning the stupid woman. It has also directed people to the proper channels for airing a grievance, which many have done - again, if you follow the links and also the Irish Times letter pages over the last three days. No-one is taking this lying down. You can stay in London if you like but I was there last week and as far as I can tell it's very much a case of same shite, different arse.


That's more like it . Wont see you at the Ryan Air check in desk at Stanstead hats :)
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby garethace » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:10 pm

wearnicehats wrote:if you ignore the ramblings of garethace and the direct responses to his posts, and the indecipherable meanderings of Missarchi, I think you'll find this thread united in damning the stupid woman. It has also directed people to the proper channels for airing a grievance, which many have done - again, if you follow the links and also the Irish Times letter pages over the last three days. No-one is taking this lying down. You can stay in London if you like but I was there last week and as far as I can tell it's very much a case of same shite, different arse.


Damning the stupid woman is one thing. I sure she is not alone in the 'stupid' category as far as stupid politicians generally go in Ireland. But lets turn our attention to people who aren't stupid. For instance, the professionals. We are waiting for the architects and professionals to draw up some proposals. Where are those proposals? Is the proposal to simply wait around for another 'boom' so that we can create all of the same old problems as we did in the past.

It is high time that Liam Carroll, every other developer and the professionals really did show they are the smartest guys in the room. A good first step by the RIAI president would be to invite me to come and have discussion with him in person. You need to sort out your own shop in the professions first and deal with your own problems. The Irish government and the Tanaiste have more things to do than cleaning up your toxic waste every time it threatens to boil over and bring down the whole system. To use you own phrase, heal thyself first.

By the way, where is your own blog? Where have you come clean, stood out from the crowd and proclaimed: 'I am'. (Thanks Sylvester Stallone/Rocky Balboa for the use of that phrase) I will be waiting to read some of your intelligent proposals from the intelligent building professionals that you are. Stop damning stupid women and do something instead. If you don't set a good example as the smart part of the population, by coming up with some smart suggestions, how do you think the rest of the stupid part of the population (including myself) is going to cope?

In the meantime I have tried to come up with some of my own smart suggestions (as incapable of that as I am) on 'negative' players in the Irish architectural market here:

http://designcomment.blogspot.com/2009/07/betting-against-market.html

As daft as it may read, it is a hundred times more in terms of a suggestion than I see coming from your corner.

Respectfully,

Brian O' Hanlon
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby sinnerboy » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:16 pm

sinnerboy wrote:I have e mailed a protest to my 2 local FF TD's ( cc'd to my local FG TD ) and all my local FF LA councilors ( again cc'd to my local FG + LAB councillors )

Just in case any of you wish to take the matter up with your local TD

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=12030&CatID=138



sinnerboy wrote:2 replies - 1 from an FF TD , 1 from an FF councilor

Both expressed sympathetic platitude and tried to assure me that FF were doing all in power to make things right . The councillor said he personally stopped listening to Swarey long ago

Please - can more of us express our reaction to these people ?


Sorry to be a cracked record . My fear is that focus is being dragged away from the issue - ( as I see of course )

We have been attacked by the 2nd in command of our Govt .
Which contains a lot of nervous back benchers
Whose contacts I have posted here

Fight back ! Get your friends and relatives to do likewise .
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:43 pm

garethace wrote:Damning the stupid woman is one thing. I sure she is not alone in the 'stupid' category as far as stupid politicians generally go in Ireland. But lets turn our attention to people who aren't stupid. For instance, the professionals. We are waiting for the architects and professionals to draw up some proposals. Where are those proposals? Is the proposal to simply wait around for another 'boom' so that we can create all of the same old problems as we did in the past.

It is high time that Liam Carroll, every other developer and the professionals really did show they are the smartest guys in the room. A good first step by the RIAI president would be to invite me to come and have discussion with him in person. You need to sort out your own shop in the professions first and deal with your own problems. The Irish government and the Tanaiste have more things to do than cleaning up your toxic waste every time it threatens to boil over and bring down the whole system. To use you own phrase, heal thyself first.

By the way, where is your own blog? Where have you come clean, stood out from the crowd and proclaimed: 'I am'. (Thanks Sylvester Stallone/Rocky Balboa for the use of that phrase) I will be waiting to read some of your intelligent proposals from the intelligent building professionals that you are. Stop damning stupid women and do something instead. If you don't set a good example as the smart part of the population, by coming up with some smart suggestions, how do you think the rest of the stupid part of the population (including myself) is going to cope?

In the meantime I have tried to come up with some of my own smart suggestions (as incapable of that as I am) on 'negative' players in the Irish architectural market here:

http://designcomment.blogspot.com/2009/07/betting-against-market.html

As daft as it may read, it is a hundred times more in terms of a suggestion than I see coming from your corner.

Respectfully,

Brian O' Hanlon


I must be stupid also as all i can see in that Blogspot is a suggestion that 2 architectural firms split the fee - one doing all the work, the other advising on "what not to build"? what does that mean????? One firm does a masterplan and the other decides what goes in it then the first designs the buildings?? One sits around, pencil at the ready, for some head to say "build a.............SCHOOL here" and off you jolly well go. Apart from that you advocate us knowing th epart V regs - great idea except, in reality, all your part V consultant probably did was to show Liam how to avoid building any social and affordable. Getting rid of Project Managers -that, I would agree with


it's all self centred gobbledegook and the only reason you're getting the flak now is because people don't usually read your posts because they're so fecking long.

Why do you keep going on about how the RIAI should listen to you - just go and see them and then tell us all about it

I don't have a blog because I work for a living

If the government wants to make a positive contibution to the built economy then either scrap the planning service or scrap An Bord Pleanala. Then we wouldn't all be sitiing around for 18 months scratching our arses because some old duck in D4 doesn't like anything over bungalow height
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby garethace » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:49 pm

I must be stupid also as all i can see in that Blogspot is a suggestion that 2 architectural firms split the fee - one doing all the work, the other advising on "what not to build"? what does that mean????? One firm does a masterplan and the other decides what goes in it then the first designs the buildings?? One sits around, pencil at the ready, for some head to say "build a.............SCHOOL here" and off you jolly well go. Apart from that you advocate us knowing th epart V regs - great idea except, in reality, all your part V consultant probably did was to show Liam how to avoid building any social and affordable. Getting rid of Project Managers -that, I would agree with


Well, you are the smart one here. You are intelligent. You go and figure out how to make it work. Wake me up when you do. I will go back to my dumb beastial slumber now.

Thanks,

Brian O' Hanlon
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:35 pm

garethace wrote:Well, you are the smart one here. You are intelligent. You go and figure out how to make it work. Wake me up when you do. I will go back to my dumb beastial slumber now.

Thanks,

Brian O' Hanlon


well your dialogue with the RIAI should go ok as long as they don't question your theories.
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby garethace » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:33 pm

Link:

http://designcomment.blogspot.com/2009/07/betting-against-market.html

What I am really suggesting I guess, is that the architect who makes a smaller fee working as the 'negative' player in the market, has the resources to develop skills and understanding in those areas, that the architect lost out to planning consultants, planners, real estate advice providers and the Lord knows who else during the Celtic Tiger building boom.

I am glad you mentioned the planning service and An Bord Pleannala in your reponse above. Because that is some of the territory that the RIAI should now work tirelessly to reclaim back from them selves. It was understandable that the architect in Ireland had to concede a lot of ground during the Celtic Tiger, because they were under so much pressure from developers to build stuff before the market collapsed.

The land taxation question, which James Pike is working on I know is an additional strand in all of this. If land values didn't wobble around un-controllably every time there is economic prosperity in Ireland, then architects would have more time to look at the whole design service. Developers would have less control and less scope to do all sorts of deals driven by changing values of land on which buildings are constructed.

Basically I am talking about a way to fund some sort of low level R&D within architecture, even in these hard times. I think that R&D cash injection is a necessary part of the recovery and healing process architecture will need to go through now. We don't want the same old model back again, where it is all hell for leather and architects being screwed to the wall. Do we?

Brian O' Hanlon
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby missarchi » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:22 am

I've got a colour scheme... but no one is interested in using it...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0731/1224251764757.html
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby pedropod » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:06 pm

missarchi wrote:I've got a colour scheme... but no one is interested in using it...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0731/1224251764757.html


The Tanaiste's arrogance is absolutely astounding - I can't wait to see what the national competitiveness council indeed has to say about fees in the architectural profession, is she actually suggesting expanding the current blood bath of under cutting each others fees? I'd love to see her apply the same 'medecine' to the public sector - she'd be politically guillotined within weeks.
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby hutton » Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:44 pm

wearnicehats wrote:If the government wants to make a positive contibution to the built economy then either scrap the planning service or scrap An Bord Pleanala. Then we wouldn't all be sitiing around for 18 months scratching our arses because some old duck in D4 doesn't like anything over bungalow height


I can't believe you said that - just because some silly cow, Coughlan, makes inane daft remarks, surely it should not mean that while criticising her remarks, that this allows for equally daft remarks to be advanced.

Some of us would be of the belief that it is precisely due to the lack of planning, that unsustainable construction is exactly what has got this country into the total shambolic economic and environmental mess that it is currently in. You'll also happily find commonality with such a point of view with Noel O'Gara, and possibly Tom Parlon - though the latter would probably be cute enough not to state it as blatantly. Still it's interesting to be aware of your world viewpoint when reading your posts from now on.

Unless I have totally misunderstood you, and you are being ironic, there's one word for such a statement: GUFF
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby RKQ » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:55 am

The genral public believe we live in a "Rip of Republic". Our Professions do seem to charge more than our UK counterparts. Dentists, Doctors, Solicitors do charge more, certainly some of the highest fees in Europe. At least this is the perception.

Is Architecture honestly any different?
Maybe Mary Coughlan has a point. Maybe the Competition Authority will have positive recommendations. If we are perceived as elitest and therefore extremely expensive, then many people won't enquire and we will continue to loose potential clients.

If our fee is justified then surely we have nothing to fear?
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Re: Mary Coughlan - criticises Architecture & engineering professions

Postby wearnicehats » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:49 pm

hutton wrote:I can't believe you said that - just because some silly cow, Coughlan, makes inane daft remarks, surely it should not mean that while criticising her remarks, that this allows for equally daft remarks to be advanced.

Some of us would be of the belief that it is precisely due to the lack of planning, that unsustainable construction is exactly what has got this country into the total shambolic economic and environmental mess that it is currently in. You'll also happily find commonality with such a point of view with Noel O'Gara, and possibly Tom Parlon - though the latter would probably be cute enough not to state it as blatantly. Still it's interesting to be aware of your world viewpoint when reading your posts from now on.

Unless I have totally misunderstood you, and you are being ironic, there's one word for such a statement: GUFF


viewpoint clear here

http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=7435
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