Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby dc3 » Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:16 pm

Time to launch a new theme, places you need to see, for salutary reasons.

First nomination:
Rathmines Village

Poor Rathmines, what did it do to deserve its current fate of extensive dereliction. Some belated revenge for former independence as a UDC, a belated market response to those long dead ratepayers who built shops in their front gardens? A general hatred of red-brick?

This is a bleak place now, with many empty shops and closed shutters. Indeed some of the better kept ventures here are the charity shops and the pound shops. You really need to see the former Lee's Department Store, on the prominent junction site, to complete your tour and do not forget the former Stella Cinema either.

In a perfect world, a free tour of Rathmines Village would be obligatory for anyone uttering the phrase "the quality of the built environment". It makes Dorset Street seem vibrant.
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby TLM » Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:27 pm

Agreed about Rathmines - lots of untapped potential I think. Jo'Burger has been a good addition though!

There was a local area plan being formulated but it seems to making pretty painfully slow progress. Are the works on the swimming pool under way yet?
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby donalbarry7 » Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:55 pm

Love Rathmines, but have to admit it has got a bit more gritty in recent years. Still it is no where near as bad as Dorset street (quite possibly one of the most horrible streets in Dublin.)
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby tommyt » Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:41 pm

donalbarry7 wrote:Love Rathmines, but have to admit it has got a bit more gritty in recent years. Still it is no where near as bad as Dorset street (quite possibly one of the most horrible streets in Dublin.)


Perceptions like this always strike me as odd. Dorset st is a heavily trafficked artery but still maintains a really intersting mix of retail/service and general land uses above and beyond Rathmines (which is moving towards the ever boring model of catering for an exclusively single, disposable income 20s/30s demographic, how many noodle bars and coffee shops make a great neighbourhood, god help you if you need sandpaper or a pair of socks ?).

I grew up in Dun Laoghaire and have lived all my adult live resided in Dublin on the northside and I can tell you gritty over pretty any day wins out. I always have a chuckle at how property in D8 and Glasnevin is considered of roughly the same value:confused:

I will revisit this at a later date. To even up the debate and impose my own prejudices upon the proceedings I could glady live out the rest of my days having never set foot again in Cork st/Pimlico/Meath st and marrowbone lane, in fact nearly all of D8 if it came down to it()apologies to all the rale salts and dacent skins ensconsed in said locales)
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby spoil_sport » Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:58 am

tommyt, are you confused?
what noodle bars? in rathmines you say? and last time I checked sandpaper and a pair of socks are actually quiet easy to come by, and 20/30 year olds with disposable incomes? yes that explains all the charity shops, I suppose.
Sure Rathmines is the poor relation of its near neighbour Ranelagh, but I would have never put it top of my "places not to go" list, that seems a little unfair.
The donnelly turpin apartments + swimming pool are well under way and a couple of single story structures nearby on the main street have been demolished, which I can only hope is a good sign.

And I have to say I love Meath St.

As it happens those new rathmines apartments have a website

http://www.rathminessquare.com/

Harks back to simpler times.... I never thought I'd be happy to read estate agent hyperbole.
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby notjim » Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:42 am

Tommyt: thanks for coming to the defence of Dorset St; the Baggot St of the northside.
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby donalbarry7 » Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:54 pm

Tommy T, we'll have to agree to disagree on Dorset street. Apart from the small stretch up near Drumcondra, the place is so depressing.
Although I have to agree about Dublin 8, the place actually makes me feel depressed!

Based purely on asthetics and nothing else:

Do want to go in dublin?
Grafton/Stephen's green area
Merrion/Baggot/Fitzwilliam area
Temple Bar (during the dyatime)
Parliament Square In Trinity
Dublin Castle
Southside Coast- Monkstown,Dun Laoghaire, Sandycove, Dalkey Killiney
Northside Coast- Howth
Phoneix Park

Don't want to go
All of the north inner-city, (especially down near the fours courts,) with the exception of O'Connell street
Anywhere west of Chirstchurch on the southside is very grim and grotty
Lots of West Dublin in general
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby tommyt » Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:35 pm

donalbarry7 wrote:Tommy T, we'll have to agree to disagree on Dorset street. Apart from the small stretch up near Drumcondra, the place is so depressing.
Although I have to agree about Dublin 8, the place actually makes me feel depressed!

Based purely on aesthetics and nothing else:

Do want to go in dublin?
Grafton/Stephen's green area
Merrion/Baggot/Fitzwilliam area
Temple Bar (during the dyatime)
Parliament Square In Trinity
Dublin Castle
Southside Coast- Monkstown,Dun Laoghaire, Sandycove, Dalkey Killiney
Northside Coast- Howth
Phoneix Park
All of the north inner-city, (especially down near the fours courts,) with the exception of O'Connell street
Anywhere west of Chirstchurch on the southside is very grim and grotty
Lots of West Dublin in general




Decent enough bit of stereotyping for discussion purposes Donal, but I still feel the North Inner city has a lot to offer and I would remove large tracts of the D1 /D7 from your list and would add the general Pearse st area from Ringsend bridge to the Dart station in D2 ( a bit mean I know and hopefully folks will be on to stick up for any unfairly tainted locales).

Regarding Rathmines: it's always been a litle shabby thanks to the slumlord bonanza that is the 'pre 63' rental market that has shamefully never been tackled by legislation( is there really that many country TDs still relying on votes on this issue from dodgy guards and farmers with half of Grove Park in various family members' names;)). However I would always consider it a premium residential address in this city. E.g Leinster Road. I would say the retail offer is a little staid thanks to the ancient rental stock available rather than a wider malaise of the area.

Charity shops as a barometer of neighbourhood health is an interesting concept. I was only discussing this lately how you rarely see charity shops in staunch working class areas, I could hazard a guess it's the old afraid of appearing poor to your neighbours mindset that limits their provision in say Donaghmede or Northside SC for example. Whereas a student or largely middle class area would see no stigma in perusing a thrift store in my generic observation.

That's enough of the pointless generalisations from meself for the moment other than to see you've inadvertently realised that Dublin (with the few exceptions of Kilbarrack, Shangannagh and Castleknock) is actually divided along class and pleasing built environment lines by distance from the sea for the most part. You're basically saying you're an aspiring eastsider!
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby notjim » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:26 pm

I don't think charity shops are common in any sort of area, rather, they cluster along those working streets that you find on the border between the shopping core proper and the inner suburbs, the streets, and in Dublin Dorset St is a typical example, where you find a fap shop and a motorbike place and a tattoo parlour and a phone unlocking place and a role playing model shop and a head shop and a shop selling militeria and all that other clutter that doesn't fit into a mall. I always like these streets for their mixture of placedness and placelessness and for their atmosphere of small striving.
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby alonso » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:33 pm

tipsy and inept tommyt? shurely shome mishtake ;)

on Pearse St., I'd actually regard the link from Westland Row inbound to Tara street as the most hostile environment on that corridor - decades of neglect from the bad neighbour Trinity and the overall feel of it being a traffic highway rather than a street compound this. I hadn't been to O'Neills since pre-smoking ban days and it was the worst bloody smokes i've had since, with conversation when accompanied and general peace when alone being rudely interrupted by the high speed high volumes baiting past. The severance effect here is probably among the worst in the city.

The stretch you refer to has quite a lot going on including the ever-attractive Pearse Square as well as the decent stock opposite the old IGB, now Arup offices near the South Lotts Road junction. Thankfully the petrol station has reopened here and along with the odd few old retailers give a bit of life to this stretch. And the surely unique juxtaposition of Windmill Lane/Digital Pigeon recording studio and Mastering Plant with a feckin bus garage gives a bit of interest. And when one adds in the whole Grand Canal Docks development, I think this stretch is the better stretch of Pearse st. I understand that you wouldn't necessarily hang around the corner of Macken st and Pearse st at 1am but it's not really a bad place and although Ringsend, Irishtown and eventually Sandymount are all superior urban environments, I would defnitely rate this stretch above the innermost stretch.

On the emerging coast based debate - there's very few more pleasing environments than the suburban coastal corridor from Howth to Bray, by car or by train. And I'm not biased at all, having lived for most of my life as far inland as Deansgrange ;)

There are only a few places in Dublin I would not go unless dragged along and I'd put West Tallaght, Ballymun and the North Strand as 3 of the top ones. And i too have never understood the fascination with parts of D8, especially on this board. A lot of the areas west of Christchurch are in bits in my opinion and bar gigs in Vicar Street I never venture there for a pint.

The suburban places I like most (bear in mind I've been tethered to some invisible post in the Irish sea since birth) are Dun Laoghaire (despite everything I've said here about the ol town, it's still got an intrinsic and unimpeachable sense of class - the built equivalent of old money - and the piled up housing in the back streets is just great), Sandymount Village, Blackrock village, the coast road from Blackrock all the way to Killiney and Shankill pretty much, (especially the imposing mansions at Monkstown), Dalkey and Killiney themselves, Clontarf and Portmarnock. I also have a sneaking regard for Sallynoggin as a place and i have no idea why, it's far from utopian in visual or social terms but it has something. Same goes for Monkstown Farm, which is probably one of the southsides great neighbourhood enclaves. Call it character. Call it a sense of place. Or maybe call it familiarity but I like those places.

In the city centre, Trinity College is still the best place to be but the old Georgian core and daytime Temple Bar come close. Wexford-Camden street to me is the heart and soul of Dublin nightlife and the best place to shop is from Grafton st to George's street.

Castleknock is a lovely place, Drumcondra, Cabra etc etc are all good but unless you can either hear the ships on foggy nights from your bedroom, walk to a beach or see the Pigeon house chimneys from the end of the street it's not part of my Dublin.
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby donalbarry7 » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:44 pm

[quote="tommyt"]Decent enough bit of stereotyping for discussion purposes Donal

Agh well, anything to get a bit of debate going! For some reason Pearse street doesn't bother me too much, apart from the bit left to decay by Trinity, who obv have the finances to overcome the ugliness problem.
Townsend street/Hawkins street area are definitely another to add to the list though.
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby notjim » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:57 pm

donalbarry7 wrote:
tommyt wrote: Trinity, who obv have the finances to overcome the ugliness problem..


You may have misunderstood the economics of Irish third level education.
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby donalbarry7 » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:58 pm

Well, seeing as we're on suburbs I may as well add a few to the list.
Aside from the coastal burbs, parts of Dartry and Rathgar are fairly pleasing to the eye.
I'll be completely un-PC and say vast tracts of Clondalkin and Cappagh are the ugliest suburbs in Dublin. Personally don't mind west Tallaght so much as the mountains take away from the grim, grey surroundings.
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby donalbarry7 » Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:03 am

notjim wrote:
donalbarry7 wrote:
You may have misunderstood the economics of Irish third level education.


I know that recent times may suggest that the educational institutions are cash strapped, but as an ex-employee of UCD I know that the Universities are very capable of attracting inward investment s to help improve campus facilities.
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby jspruit » Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:42 am

spoil_sport wrote:
As it happens those new rathmines apartments have a website

http://www.rathminessquare.com/

Harks back to simpler times.... I never thought I'd be happy to read estate agent hyperbole.


It will be interesting to see how those apartments go in this current economic climate. In theory, you would not get planning approval for those apartments under the Variation 21 because of some shortcomings:
[INDENT]Type A 1 Bedroom Apartment at 48.2 SQm is smaller than the minimum 55 SQM.
[/INDENT]
[INDENT]Type C 1 Bedroom Apartment at 54.2 SQm is smaller than the minimum 55 SQM.
[/INDENT]
[INDENT]Types H,I,J,K,L,M 2 Bedroom Apartment are all smaller than the minimum 80 SQM.
[/INDENT]
[INDENT]Types N,O 3 Bedroom Apartment are all smaller than the minimum 100 SQM.
[/INDENT]
[INDENT]Many of the apartments seem to be single-aspect.
[/INDENT]
The location for this development is great, and the idea of having it around the pool seems to be nice, but if the prices aren't better than larger units that do meet the Variation 21 then I don't see how this development will economically be viable unfortunately.
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby gunter » Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:24 am

alonso wrote:. . . i too have never understood the fascination with parts of D8, especially on this board.

You can't leave a toxic comment like that hanging out there! What are you getting at exactly?

alonso wrote:. . . . unless you can either hear the ships on foggy nights from your bedroom, walk to a beach or see the Pigeon house chimneys from the end of the street it's not part of my Dublin.


That's pirate talk!

As someone raised in Irishtown, I know the full misery of Sandymount Strand. I do not accept the use of the term 'beach' in describing this place. Once or twice a year we were bundled into a relative's car and taken to a real beach, at Portmarnock or Donabate, places with sand dunes and the actual sea!

Dublin 8 may not have the mud flats of Dublin 4, but at least 'Eight' is real Dublin, not the Dart strip, coastal suburbia of your yearnings. You have crossed the line alonso.
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby alonso » Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:29 pm

oooh Gunter, have we begun the new Dublin divide - the Liffey no longer delineates. The eastside westside fight is on!!! Bring it ;)

I'll reply later seriously in more detail though but for now i'll just say it has a lot to do with where you're from and how safe and comfortable you feel in certain areas
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby alonso » Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:02 pm

gunter wrote:You can't leave a toxic comment like that hanging out there! What are you getting at exactly?



That's pirate talk!

As someone raised in Irishtown, I know the full misery of Sandymount Strand. I do not accept the use of the term 'beach' in describing this place. Once or twice a year we were bundled into a relative's car and taken to a real beach, at Portmarnock or Donabate, places with sand dunes and the actual sea!

Dublin 8 may not have the mud flats of Dublin 4, but at least 'Eight' is real Dublin, not the Dart strip, coastal suburbia of your yearnings. You have crossed the line alonso.


I just have zero affinity with most of that area. I have no grá for the Liberties and general Meath St area and out towards Dolphin's barn and Crumlin, certainly not as much as I would have for the coastal inner areas. I know, like tommyt I may be raising the ire of what is considered rale or reeyil Dublin but feck it, there's as much of that in Dun Laoghaire as anywhere but with the added bonus, in my mind, of being a better place to be. And when I read all the threads about these areas on here, yes I agree with the sentiments expressed re conservation and yes I appreciate the places but I find it hard to be passionate about them as much as i would for other areas which i'm equally unfamiliar with but find more pleasing such as Phibsborough, Cabra or East Wall. I don't actively hate these areas, there's nowhere in Dublin I do hate (coz it's only a bus away from town :) ) but there are areas I'd rather be than there.

Does "real Dublin" mean "poor", "neglected", "lamented"? No it does not. To me anyway. Just because there;s a few songs about the Liberties doesn't make it more proper Dub than Monkstown Farm, ironically the home of Ronnie Drew (if i'm not mistaken) - the blow-in from Dun Laoghaire as he once put it himself.

When i referred to the sea earlier it was a case of having to meet one of those criteria not all. Sandymount and Merrion are not proper beaches i accept, but they are within view of the Pigeon House. Blackrock isn't either but you can hear the foghorns. While Sandymount does not provide beach features, it;s far from miserable. For that I would suggest one must venture a smidge westward ;) i joke of course - i would never criticise another's area as miserable, the cheek :) In bits is far more diplomatic (and more Dublinese)
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby gunter » Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:24 pm

I'm just going to leave that sit and fester for a while!
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby jpsartre » Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:34 pm

I haven't been back to Dublin since I left it in Spring '02. I'm going there at the end of the week for a day trip. I was wondering what I might take a look at in terms of new developments around the city that have sprung up since then (or even before since I wasn't really all that interested at the time). I'm particularly interested in the landscape architecture related stuff and public spaces. Anybody got any suggestions?
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby gunter » Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:24 pm

jpsartre wrote:I haven't been back to Dublin since I left it in Spring '02. I'm going there at the end of the week for a day trip. I'm particularly interested in the landscape architecture related stuff and public spaces. Anybody got any suggestions?


I suppose that depends on whether you're now living in Tralee or Prague! If you're coming from Tralee, you'll be well impressed with the hard landscaping of the North Wall campshire (before they dig it all up again) and the re-paving of O'Connell Street, with square trees! (before they dig it all up again).
On the other hand, if you're coming from Prague . . . I don't know, maybe pick somewhere else to go!

alonso wrote:. . . . I have no grá for the Liberties and general Meath St area. I know, like tommyt I may be raising the ire of what is considered rale or reeyil Dublin but feck it, there's as much of that in Dun Laoghaire as anywhere but with the added bonus, in my mind, of being a better place to be.

Does "real Dublin" mean "poor", "neglected", "lamented"? No it does not. To me anyway. Just because there;s a few songs about the Liberties doesn't make it more proper Dub than Monkstown Farm,


Of course, you're absolutely right, if we're dealing in shallow 'livability' criteria. DunLaoghaire is probably a better place to live than Drimnagh, who wouldn't swap a flat in Crumlin for a house in Sandymount? OK that's all self evident, but there's something seriously wrong with a city where huge areas of it's inner core are disliked to the extent that is evident here. If the city was working properly, Dublin 8, 'everything west of Christchurch', would be more real than Monkstown, this is part of the historic core of the city, Monkstown, and the like, is where all the middle class people went in the nineteenth century to avoid having to rub shoulders with the lower orders that didn't have the means or the inclination to get out of the stinking city.

A lot of what is being said here is exactly what I believe the decision makers in DCC also think. To hell with places like The Liberties, or Kilmainham, or Inchicore, we'll humour them with Local Area Plans, but when it comes right down to the actual decisions, like whether they deserve a Luas service, or whether their buildings should be protected and conserved, (like it says in the Development Plan), feck them, they don't deserve it, and they'll only be ungrateful anyway. If anyone comes over to check out the city, we can always show them Ranelagh, the Docklands and the Georgian core!
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby alonso » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:05 am

Gunter I think you're unfair in inferring all that from a post which says that i prefer the coastal corridor than the Liberties on a thread that asks what places you want and don't want to go. I don't think it's shallow to enjoy natural amenities such as a coastline or a built fabric like Victorian mansions juxtaposed with redbrick terraces over a perceived reality based on nothing but working class credentials and rare oul times which have managed to replace or redefine early 20th century destitution and unsafe overcrowding with twee references to "characters" in ballads. It's no more real than East Wall or Ringsend which I'd also rate higher than the area in question. In any case, doesn't almost every city in the developed world have it's areas that are not exactly loved? Aren't many of these areas quite central? It;s hardly unique to Dublin which you seem to be implying.

As to your last paragraph, well there's nothing in my professional approach to the issue that would fit in with your expressed position. Every place in the city and beyond is "humoured" by a Local Area Plan. It's not exclusive to Dublin 8 and this particular piece of your post smacks of victim mentality. For Luas, take the red line and tell me that serves the elite, look at Line F which is planned to go right through this area. For conservation and protection, look at the Clarence, look at the Monkstown Ring Road, Fitzwilliam Street, Dun Laoghaire and Blackrock baths, VHI Abbey Street, Stephen's Green North - mistakes and disgraces have cropped up in every location for decades and dividing the city into the victims of D8 and the lucky ones in the Georgian Core is unhelpful in the extreme.

I agree with your posts on the Thomas street thread, if not sharing the veracity and passion of your opinions. That's all I said originally - that i didn't get the fascination with the area, not that it should suffer from total insitutional inertia, neglect and mismanagement. I hope that clears it up.

(and jeeeaysus Gunter, we'd never show the visitors the Docklands - we still hide it behind the Loop line ;) )
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby jimg » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:11 am

The reason there is interest here in D8 and similar inner city areas is simply because such areas largely constitute the historic city of Dublin. Until surprisingly recently (less than 100 years) the city was small and compact. Proportionally there is far more of historic interest within this core than in the leafier suburbs.

The anti-old city attitude is certainly widespread and obviously permeates thinking in DCC. I really couldn't believe the amount of time Dick Gleason dedicated in a recent printed interview with to discussing urgent need for action plans for Ballsbridge, Rathmines and the like. It really angered me that Ballsbridge could be viewed as a priority for active DCC involvement while the historic urban core of Dublin city is largely allowed to rot not only in terms of the upkeep of the public domain but in terms of the seeming disinterest in actually applying any effort to evaluating planning applications. I simply cannot understand how a planner (or anyone for that matter) can be blind the huge potential in restoring the inner city; they really need to visit more European cities to see how desirable and successful a preserved historic core can be.

Having said that I am not a romanticist. In their currently neglected state, much of D8 and the like is not a particularly pleasant area to live. I've lived for years in D3 and D8 and there is no romance in the poverty, crime and fear which dominates significant parts of these postal codes. During the last 5 or more years I've lived in D6; at this stage, I am too self-interested to live in an area where I don't feel fully secure.
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby hutton » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:27 am

*watches with interest the polite, yet determined and informative 'tennis court etiquette', between Alonso and Gunter*

Keep it up folks - a most interesting and informative discussion on a thread which one had presumed would fall into the old cliches :)

EDIT - Aha! Only seeing now that Jimg also has erudite comments to add!
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Re: Places you do (and you dont) want to go!

Postby gunter » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:35 am

jimg: That's the point I was getting at, we shouldn't have allowed DCC lose focus on the core and that's what's happened, and I don't accept that this is common, plenty of cities do it.

Victimhood alonso! Until you and tommyt starting running down Dublin 8, I mistakenly thought that this was the part of town that the average, slightly under financed, urbanite wished he lived in.

I do take your point however, that we don't have anything comparable to Sandymount strand.

Image
Yes, this is exactly the way I remember it.
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