The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby wearnicehats » Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:44 am

I apologise if I'm going over old ground (or maybe that should be under old ground) but why do we need a terminus? why not just bring the tunnel up to join up with the current SSG LUAS stop and extend the pedestrianised zone to the whole street.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:03 pm

here are some calculations for you...

1440msq. nom.

= 1440 people@ 1 per m sq.
= 2880 people@ 2 per m sq.
= 4320 people @ 3 per m sq.

It has 7 escalators that could handle around 81900 people per hour ( excluding interconnector connections )
or 40,000 nom. per direction around double the RPA numbers

http://bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/rail-vehicles/metros/bucharest--romania?docID=0901260d8000d153#
(bit wide but gives you an idea)

Length 112,610 mm
Width 3,100 mm
Max. Speed 80 km/h
Seated Passengers 216
Standees 984 (4 pass/m2)

and lisboa

Operator Metropolitano de Lisboa
Carbody Material Stainless steel
Length 49,080 mm (unit)
Width 2,789 mm
Max. Speed 72 km/h
Seated Passengers 196
Standees 300 (6pass/m2)

1200 passengers per train = 36,000 per direction per hour/30 trains per hour
358 luas 40m
666.6666666666666666666666666666 luas/metro??? 20,000/30 trains per hour (the devil)

If you assumed 2 minutes to get of the platform and 2 minute wait platform would handle 86400 people per hour at 2 per m sq. ( this has not been based off proper flow modeling )

http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=426&storycode=3119657&c=1&encCode=00000000017e719d
http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=426&storycode=3119735&c=1&encCode=00000000017e7268
http://www.andrewlownie.co.uk/books/wolmar.christian/broken_rails.shtml
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:16 pm

if its good enough for crossrail is it good enough for the green?
the length of the platform is a whopping 240m each platform 5.5m x 2 so looks like we would be close enough on st Stephens green west...

"architectural design engineer" whats that??

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/pages/visiontoreality1.html
http://www.crossrail.co.uk/pages/pedestriansimulation.html
http://www.crossrail.co.uk/pages/platformtunnel.html
http://www.crossrail.co.uk/80256B090053AF4C/Files/withtwotickethalls/$FILE/typicalcrossrailstation.jpg
http://www.crossrail.co.uk/pages/eventmarkingroyalassent.html
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby SunnyDub » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:54 pm

Not really comparing like with like...what's your point, our metro is really a glorified tram but on separated track, I agree, by the way but they might actually have their figures right.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:40 pm

my point is that the platform width on st Stephens green west VS crossrail is pretty much the same as my proposal
so you think the width is there and it would work ok ... now for the neighbours :D
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Deville » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:02 pm

I think the only way people are going to take notice of how we all feel about the Metro going under stephens green is if we demonstrate about it. Its crazy putting it under the green when O'Connell street is much more suitable. Not only that the Red and Green Luas lines are going to be connected up so why do we need another train station in the same place?? Its lazy thinking and bad planning in my opinion.

So how would anybody feel about setting up demonstration??
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby SunnyDub » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:12 pm

I'll set up a counter demo!

It makes sense to go south, the original proposal was to continue south and come up at Ranelagh and then south to Bray on upgraded metro line. the interchange at St Stephen's Green fulfills 2 important functions, it connects with the interconnector and it provides connection into the south of the city....stopping at O Connell St makes no sense...the thing has already been pared back to the max
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby SunnyDub » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:13 pm

It makes sense to go south, the original proposal was to continue south and come up at Ranelagh and then south to Bray on upgraded metro line. the interchange at St Stephen's Green fulfills 2 important functions, it connects with the interconnector and it provides connection into the south of the city....stopping at O Connell St makes no sense...the thing has already been pared back to the max.

maybe a counter-demo will be in order to counter your fuzzy thinking.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:08 am

st stephens green makes sense because of docklands... the interconnector is bankrolling it
taking away from connolly..
trinity could also...
the thing I find interesting is you could in future tap 2 CIE lines into metro north one of them would only require 1 station and 1 - 2km of tunneling if that
and we could get rid of that bridge blocking custom house
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:09 am

I've no issue with the metro north / interconector interchange being located at SSG, just the heavy price the park itself will have to pay, which is of course unecessary & the short sightedness of metro north terminating at the green.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby notjim » Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:41 pm

This was already posted on the Metro North thread but this seemed like a more relevant thread. Apart from the weird claim that moving the Fusiliers Arch is a scoop, it does give the body count: 45 mature trees felled and the replacement trees will have to be chosen to allow for the reduced root space.



http://www.independent.ie/national-n...n-1458482.html

By Paul Melia

Tuesday August 19 2008

TRAFFIC is to be completely banned from the Grafton Street corner of Dublin’s St Stephen’s Green when a public plaza is created as part of works for the Metro North light-rail system.

The Railway Procurement Agency is currently in discussions with Dublin City Council about creating the plaza at the top of the city’s premier shopping street, which could see the whole area transformed into a pedestrian-only area.

And yesterday it emerged the Fusilier's Arch at the entrance to St Stephen’s Green will have be removed for four years during construction works.

The statue of Daniel O’Connell on the capital’s main thoroughfare will also be temporarily removed during the construction of underground stations.

No decision has been made as to where to relocate the iconic statue during the four years of building work, but it is planned to re-instate it once the stations are completed.

And it has emerged that more than 40 mature trees will have to be removed from St Stephen’s Green to accommodate an underground station, work on which is expected to start next year.

The RPA’s chief architect, Jim Quinlan, last night outlined the vision for St Stephen's Green and the city centre after works are complete and Metro North is up and running.

“We want to try and declutter that area and create a public plaza,” he told the Irish Independent.

“It’s already a great place for people to meet and we’re going to remove traffic and create a much more pedestrian zone with more, and better, street furniture.

“We’ll move the bike stands to create space, and we’ll have to figure out where to put the horse and carts, taxis and bikes.

“It’s a fantastic opportunity and it could be extended to College Green and Westmoreland Street because we’re digging that up as well. It’s a great opportunity to create a pedestrian spine through the heart of the city.”

But parts of St Stephen’s Green will be changed forever, with up to 45 mature trees removed to facilitate construction of the underground station. Three small ‘boxes' or escape hatches will also be built within the park walls, while air vents will be located on the island in the middle of the lake.

However a 'living wall' will be created, which will see plants and shrubbery shielding the vents from park users over time. “St Stephen’s Green can’t go back exactly as it was, there will be some vents on the island, but they’ll be disguised,” he said.

“A lot of the trees in place need a lot of root space, and we’re working with the Office of Public Works to see what species can go back in. We think 44 or 45 mature trees will have to be removed.”

Mr Quinlan, who is leaving the RPA later this week to take up a new position as chief architect with the Dubai light rail project, also said he expected the project to be delivered by its 2014 deadline.

But he admitted the construction works would be painful, and that “hundreds of acres” of land would be needed for the project. “There’s radar mapping now which tells us exactly what’s underground,” he said. “We’ll need quite a lot of land, but we’ve tried to ensure we’re under public roads and land. Traffic management will have an impact on the city, and it (disruption) will be more than Luas.

“St Stephen’s Green, O’Connell Street, Parnell Square, the Mater and Drumcondra all present big problems. Abbey Street to the Quays will have to be dug up, and some side streets will be closed off in Drumcondra. The 2014 deadline is a big call, it’s very complex but we’re taking an optimistic view. Some things are out of our hands, and planning could take longer (than expected).” Construction works will start at a number of locations across the city, assuming An Bord Pleanala approve the project, he added.

- Paul Melia
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby markpb » Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:53 pm

notjim wrote:And yesterday it emerged the Fusilier's Arch at the entrance to St Stephen’s Green will have be removed for four years during construction works. [...] And it has emerged that more than 40 mature trees will have to be removed from St Stephen’s Green to accommodate an underground station, work on which is expected to start next year.


Typical shoddy journalism. Nothing "emerged" yesterday, all those details have been known for months.

The plaza around SSG(N) and Grafton St could be a great addition to the city but only if it's done well. If it's left as an exposed concrete strip, it'll be nothing different to what it is now.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:19 pm

It's not shoddy journalism...
small boxs!!! those mattress evacuation staircases are huge... we all know there are other options
The problem with these structures is planting next to them is a real issue as they can limit any future growth to some extent... I would say these structures on the edge of the green have the potential to cause more long term damage

Which gets me thinking we are going to have a existing/proposed tree canopy/root potential drawing...
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:00 pm

notjim wrote:it does give the body count: 45 mature trees felled and the replacement trees will have to be chosen to allow for the reduced root space.


“A lot of the trees in place need a lot of root space, and we’re working with the Office of Public Works to see what species can go back in. We think 44 or 45 mature trees will have to be removed.”


I think it sounds more like they are examining the possibility that some specimens can be temporarily removed notjim ... which is rarely successful with anything over 20 years old. No matter where they dig in the green, or what they remove, they will encounter the root system of remaining mature trees which they're obviously planning to doctor & hope for the best.
-Thanks for posting.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby notjim » Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:15 pm

Yes, as markpb notes, it is a bad article, as well as claiming some things as news which aren't, the most important sentence is hard to parse.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:13 pm

he forgot to meantion they are banning the luas :p
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby SunnyDub » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:04 am

I actually think it is news that they're proposing a public plaza there, no? As for presenting the other info as news, it should be presented as context, usual standard of journalism in this country...pretend you've an exclusive even if you don't!!
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Alek Smart » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:18 pm

I just love this little gem....

“We’ll move the bike stands to create space, and we’ll have to figure out where to put the horse and carts, taxis and bikes."

If this was coming from a Lockhard or a Jarvey I`d nod sagely and agree,but this is the Chief Architect of the RPA scratchin his head and wondering how the fluich 20,000 Taxi`s currently engaged in a Civil War for rank space sufficient to accomodate 2,500 can be "accomodated"...... :)

Lessons to be learned in the Middle East perhaps..???
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:06 pm

it's hard to know if its DCC or RPA driving this grasscrete...
But it looks like the OPW!!!! according to the RPA drawing

at least the architect is being open and honest and trying to accomodate people!
but this will no doubt lead to a master plan for around the green and 2000 bike spaces...
which is not a bad thing kinda like the irish times article 4 wheels bad 46a wheels good...
should be titled spinning wheels bad standing feet good

I don't know if I would be more worried of the taxi drivers or horsemen... ;)
speaking of which has anyone seen that street shopping development plan in DCC the college green is waiting to be rezoned ( i wish) !!!
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:50 pm

PART 8
Railway works, etc. on Saint Stephen’s Green
116.—Section 15 of the Saint Stephen’s Green (Dublin) Act 1877
does not apply—
(a) to anything done for the purposes of surveys and inspections
under section 36 of the Act of 2001,
(b) to any railway works (within the meaning of section 2 of
the Act of 2001) carried out on or under Saint Stephen’s
Green pursuant to a railway order under section 43
(inserted by section 49 of the Planning and Development
(Strategic Infrastructure) Act 2006) of the Act of 2001, or
(c) to restrict the operation of a railway, light railway or metro
(within the meaning of section 2 of the Act of 2001) on
or under Saint Stephen’s Green.

Non-application of
section 15 of Saint
Stephen’s Green
(Dublin) Act 1877

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=10932&lang=ENG&loc=849

this going to end up in the high court or some European Court 4 sure :rolleyes:
to surveys,
inspections and
railway works and
operation of
railway, light
railway or metro.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:07 am

I was in the glen a month ago and I found this sign...
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby SunnyDub » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:25 pm

That section of the Act enables the so-called destruction you're talking about...so any legal challenge will go nowhere, in the same way the 2004 amendment to National Monuments Act allows for destruction of monuments by ministerial order.

I think your only chance of stopping this is a funding crisis, there was some clarity on metro funding in Saturdays Irish Times:

"...documents obtained from the Department of Transport set the cost of Metro North at €4.58 billion in 2004 prices.

Transport sources said this was an estimate of the full cost of the construction and operation of the Public Private Partnership (PPP)over the 35 years of the partnership’s life-span.

The construction element alone has been put at about €2.5 billion at 2007 prices. The remaining costs cover operation and maintenance and the refurbishment of the system at the end of the 35 years before its handover to the State. It also covers significant bank and consultancy fees for the PPP. Under typical PPPs in the National Roads Programme, the State would put up 65 percent of the construction costs, which would give the Government a bill of some €1.5 billion to be paid over five years. The remainder would be in agreed scheduled payments to the private sector partner over the lifetime of the partnership
".

In other words 300m a year for 5 years.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0913/1221235786679.html
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:15 pm

i did a quick/unverified calculation of metro in sofia around 1 billion eu for 20 km underground
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_view/article/2008/08/8752/sofia_metro_contractors_chosen.html
labour rates and....
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:14 am

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