The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby johnglas » Tue May 20, 2008 2:12 pm

Bor B: don't get aerated: (a) I'm not in Ireland and (b) your argument was rubbish. And yes, there are differently-shaped currencies (or 'pots of money' if you prefer) and 'good causes' rarely see what was 'wasted' on something else, but medical waste (in a financial sense) puts most other attempts at budgeting in the shade.
For what it's worth, the proposal to dig up the Green could be digging up what is left of the integrity of Dublin city centre; it's a crackpot scherme and shows the utter indifference of transport engineers to urban heritage or townscape or anything else. It will go over budget and it will wreck the Green.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby notjim » Tue May 20, 2008 2:32 pm

PTB wrote:I'ld question your education since you almost never capitalise and your puncuation is simply atrocious.


I don't want to appear to be defending BoB who I find annoying and boring, but I don't think it is a good idea to link incisiveness to education or education to punctuation and capitalization.

Anyway, to get slightly back on topic; there is a survey now for people interested in expressing a view on Dublintransport:

http://www.2030vision.ie

I guess it is supposed to address the sort of reservations that have been expressed here about consultation, but, if you go to do the survey the actual questions are fatuous.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Tue May 20, 2008 7:06 pm

we have a pretty good record of before... can anyone spot the soil testing???
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby BostonorBerlin » Wed May 21, 2008 10:48 am

Rory W wrote:Is BorB Noel O'Gara come back to haunt us - sure sounds the same


Sorry Rory I didnt know that one was still traumatised by a severe critque you recieved in college and hadnt gotten over it yet. Be strong ....:D

Heh Rory W you didnt happen to see that Transport 2012 or was that 2013 plan, it was around here somewhere, must be buried under the copies of Transport 2030 I just recieved.

Heres todays joke of the day , an oldie but a goodie especially for Rory W ... boo!
NOT one of the flagship public transport projects supposed to be finished this year under the Government's Transport 21 plan will be completed on time. The huge programme, costing taxpayers a total of €34bn over its lifetime, will instead be delayed for years -- one project, the Luas Dublin city centre link-up due to be up and running within months, has not even started
Transport plan comes off the rails as major delays forecast
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/transport-plan-comes-off-the-rails-as-major-delays-forecast-1307961.html
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby SeamusOG » Wed May 21, 2008 2:06 pm

jimg wrote:How am I supposted to know what you want? The one constant message from you is that Dart 1 should run under Connolly and that the Stephens Green interchange should be moved to College Green.

Actually no, Jim. You're misrepresenting again.

The route via Connolly was one route which had been proposed in the 1970s, and we still have no idea if its merits have been properly examined.

There would also seem to be a potential route - a more central one - between Heuston and Spencer Dock, via College Green/Dame Street and Pearse Station. This was the only other potential route which I had mentioned on this thread.

(I'm sure there are other potential routes possible but we don't, as yet, have any information as to whether any of them were examined).

I have no interest to be honest and don't know why you think I'd like to spend my time producing renders of your fanciful notions.

A Heuston-Spencer Dock route via College Green/Dame Street and Pearse (as mentioned above) was the route which I suggested you should do up on your new program, as it would show exactly the same coverage circles as your preferred route.

At the mention of that - and despite your recent keenness to learn this new program - you seem to have suddenly become too busy. :D:D:D
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby PVC King » Mon May 26, 2008 9:20 am

notjim wrote:Just to be clear about this, continuing on to Charlemont wouldn't prevent them digging a station for the Green will it? So what is the advantage? They aren't putting the TBM's in at the Green are they; I assume they are going in at the other end and will be left buried at the Green end.


The advantage would be that they only need to consider the exits as the tunnelling and main station fit out could be accessed via both ends of the tunnel as is the case with most TBM bored underground rail systems. The point you have raised on the nature of construction has raised far more issues however and either way it is felt that the treatment of this location is simply unacceptable from either a logical or heritage viewpoint.

There will be two tunnels and given the costs of TBMs there is no way that 2 of them will be left in the ground.

My understanding of this is that the method of construction will be similar to the hugely successful Dublin Port Tunnel whereby a TBM will leave the northern porthole and surface in the green, undergo a full service and then head back to de nortside.

If this isn't the case it raises the question why on earth do they need to thrash the lake in the Green?

Hyde Park Corner is the perfect example of how to build a tube station serving two major heritage parks (Hyde & Green parks) without any impact to either.

I however fear that the DPT model is the one that they will follow and that thousands of trucks of muck will come out of the green for the period of construction.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby notjim » Mon May 26, 2008 9:28 am

Ok, that makes sense, I didn't realised that they were turning the TBM in the Green, for some reason I thought they were doing both tunnels at the same time. Isn't it possible to turn the machine underground while boring the loopback they have marked on maps?
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby PVC King » Mon May 26, 2008 9:35 am

I'm sure it is; but why the wholesale destruction of what is a very special setting if they don't need to surface the TBM?

When lines are being built elsewhere all you see are the exits going in and this involves a very minor level of disturbance.

I would like to see the future projected bill board advertising revenues laid down because if these are at the level one would expect this does not have to be a grand connection paid for on a hair-shirt budget.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby cgcsb » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:36 pm

Thank god that's gone!
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:33 pm

pretty close to digging up the whole of st stephens green north you would think???? 30m deep?
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby SunnyDub » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:18 pm

Point taken, but what's the alternative?

Maybe the only way to avoid such a big box in the green is to continue the line underground south to ranelagh as the DTO originally proposed. Not going to happen due to money constraint.

I don't see how this can be avoided, and it must surely be worth it, in order to start building a public transport network for the city. with the exception of the old trees it's a man made landscape that can, and will, be restored, I would've thought.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:39 am

So some flesh on the impact metro construction works will have on the green.

Image


Image

- The use of a faint grey symbol to denote removed trees is clearly intended to imply minimal impact.
- Despite obvious difficulty identifying trees to be removed, i've counted 30.
- The island is clearly in for it & its difficult to see how the proliferation of new strucutres it will host can be camouflaged.
- The plan is not accurate; according to the RPA, trees bordering the west & north side of the green do not exist & do not feature, perhaps they're just not worthy of mention.
- This implies that all trees bordering the west & north railing are to be removed & in the case of the west side will be replaced again with a proliferation of plant type structures.
- If so, total trees to be removed will easily exceed 50.
- The massive construction box required will leave us wtih a park bearing the wounds of heavy interference and will stand in stark contrast to the remainder.
- The softness of the mature lake setting in particular, will be lost.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:44 am

hmmm 50 trees or a Metro/interconnector/Luas/Bus interchange linking the city's, region's and island's transport network for the first time. I'll go with the latter thanks.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:54 am

how about go with both ?

reluctane by the RPA to temporarily shift the luas terminus to harcourt street is not adequate reason to remove 50+ trees & permanently alter the green.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby DGF » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:10 am

I don't see how a temp. relocation of the luas stop to Harcourt Street would help. The excavation under the green would still have to happen and even if the main entry points were outside the railings it is inevitable that the tree root systems would be undermined, causing dangerous instability.

I have to agree with Alonso - the pay off in terms of public transport is worth it in the long term.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby cgcsb » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:16 am

that's the first diagram i've seen that includes the link up luas line evidence that it is going ahead after all. They're only trees no matter how pretty they are
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:21 am

Its not about merely creating entry points from the west & north.

The clear alternative is to align metro north terminus with SSG west road space & align the interconector stop with SSG north road space.

- Both road spaces do not handle through road traffic and are under utilised.
- Both road spaces can be reinstated exactly as is.
- The Green cannot.

- Further felling along the west boundary will be required to construct the interconnector.
- With future expansion south inevitable, we are consigning the park to another bout of open heart surgery in the future.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby markpb » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:22 am

Peter Fitz wrote:reluctane by the RPA to temporarily shift the luas terminus to harcourt street is not adequate reason to remove 50+ trees & permanently alter the green.


I can't understand how you could possibly advocate inconveniencing thousands of people a day to save those trees? They're a fantastic asset for Dublin, no argument there, but if you're asking people to walk further to take public transport, a lot will just go back to their cars so they can admire the trees from their traffic jams :)
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:28 am

markpb wrote:I can't understand how you could possibly advocate inconveniencing thousands of people a day to save those trees? They're a fantastic asset for Dublin, no argument there, but if you're asking people to walk further to take public transport, a lot will just go back to their cars so they can admire the trees from their traffic jams


If people have issues with walking a further 200m, temporarily, i doub't they're the type to take public transport in the first instance.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby DGF » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:10 am

Peter Fitz wrote:Its not about merely creating entry points from the west & north.

The clear alternative is to align metro north terminus with SSG west road space & align the interconector stop with SSG north road space.

- Both road spaces do not handle through road traffic and are under utilised.
- Both road spaces can be reinstated exactly as is.
- The Green cannot.

- Further felling along the west boundary will be required to construct the interconnector.
- With future expansion south inevitable, we are consigning the park to another bout of open heart surgery in the future.



I still don't see how you could actually accommodate all of the tunnelling and associated works outside the railings of the green & under the road space. If you look at the extent of what is planned in the posts by missarchi on this thread:
http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=7040 its difficult to imagine that excavation under the Green can be avoided. Is there a realistic way to do this?
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:20 am

Some encroaching on the green would still be necessary but obviously significantly less.

Road width on ssg west & north is substantial & clearly the length is there.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:17 pm

CURRENT ALIGNMENT CUT COVER

PROS:

large station/platforms
fast interchange with connector

CONS:

destroy the green
currently architecture not worthy of site but box could be enhanced...
single exit (excluding interconnector) backtracking

CURRENT ALIGNMENT MINED

PROS:

a little less destruction but still alot

CONS:

architecturally limited

CURRENT ALIGNMENT WEST ALIGNMENT CUT N COVER should be in RPA EIS

PROS:

minimal damage to the green
architectural green arc
may lead to outer st stephens green master plan and more pedestrisation
dual exits less backtracking easier to go south...

CONS:

platform width 11-12m nom. limited this will come down to passenger flows RPA EIS
little slower interchange with interconnector + 2-5 minutes nom.
unhappy business in the short term but benifits them more in the long term...
limited to architectural green arch... still impressive... but not huge


CURRENT ALIGNMENT WEST ALIGNMENT MINED should be in RPA EIS

limited architectural scope...
larger platform

OTHER THOUGHTS

the RPA should have a golden line that will show set back req. from edge of green in EIS...
assuming you can kill 1/3 of the tree canopy in the roots I arrived at a set back between 1.5 -2 m from the fence
I have drawings showing all this... there would also be construction tricks and details ( hope these in EIS)

the footpath on st stephens north green is getting cut by 2m???

the RPA renderings show no poles... I imagine we are going to have loads and cables with luas BX??? will wreck the space

I think they should run the luas around the green so it comes in to its current stop then goes back the way it came and around the green to dawson st... or... it just stops on the west in its curent position and some other luas line goes down dawson st... I just think it makes no sense to lose so much space to the luas in this area???

still not enough bike spaces shown... + 1500 (we need a master plan for the outer green)
change some of the car parking spaces

what do you think of those sky lights in the footpath??

I have some cad drawings but internet is *** at the moment will dump some screenshoots when its up again
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:30 pm

just comes down to if the platform is sufficient and the neighbors don't complain :D
the RPA site has much more potential for a shamrock...
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby PVC King » Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:57 pm

Peter Fitz wrote:Some encroaching on the green would still be necessary but obviously significantly less.


Agreed whatever happens with both the Interconnector and Metro North there will be some structures errected that will be out of character with the status of a conservation area. The bigger picture of mass transit must be considered and the requirements for entrances, ventilation and sub stations.

However the complete destruction of a Victorian planting scheme is simply unacceptable and the setting will take 30-80 years to come back to where it currently is. It might be different if there was another park of a similar standard in Central Dublin but there isn't St Patricks Park is junky ridden, Merrion Square was done in the early 1980s and Iveagh Gardens is both impossible to find and overlooked on to close a scale.

The real reason why St Stephens Green is being trashed is because it is in State Hands and therefore regarded as compensation free as the OPW will capitulate and silence their heritage advisors.

Progress would have been to continue the line away from the retail district to assist future expansions, prevent retail choking on construction traffic and muck filled streets.

What I find particularly depressing is that the majority of posters seem to advocate transiting millions of annual passenger journeys to this location and completely ignore one of the principal draws for people to go there in the first place.

For a few million extra in actual costs tens of millions of externalities and 100's of million of demand destruction (consumers going elsewhere long-term) could have been avoided. A shameful shortsighted decision from the people who brought Luas to Citywest before joining the dots. :(
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