'Dutch Billys'

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby ake » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:51 pm

Can anyone tell me anything about these?; they are in Castle Lane in Limerick, right beside the Castle funnily enough.

[ATTACH]7772[/ATTACH]

I'm ignorant about dutch billys so these could be recreations for all I know but the brick looks very fine for that.
Attachments
illy.jpg
illy.jpg (113.29 KiB) Viewed 5992 times
ake
Member
 
Posts: 462
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:53 pm

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby gunter » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:05 pm

ake wrote:Can anyone tell me anything about these?; they are in Castle Lane in Limerick, right beside the Castle funnily enough.

[ATTACH]7772[/ATTACH]

I'm ignorant about dutch billys so these could be recreations for all I know but the brick looks very fine for that.


After Dublin, I gather Limerick was 'Billy' central. I'm not aware of any studies or publications on Dutch Billys in Limerick, just the odd glimpse in old photographs, same as Dublin.

I think the pair you've shown beside the castle were just built about ten years ago as some kind of olde worlde backdrop to a pub, I don't think they're supposed to be reconstructions of actual houses on that site, just worthy enough echos of a lost building type. Somebody down there will know, but they probably keep that kind of information to themselves.

Back in Dublin, here's a great old grainy photograph of a solitary 'Billy' in Pimlico, (kindly supplied by the man). It's just a modest three storey house, but what beautiful proportions and what a urban presence for such a small house.

Image
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby gunter » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:27 am

Here's a little more info on the Parnell Street Billys.

Image
The facade to Parnell St. with the roof layout that can only have been faced by the rare 'three gables shared by two houses' arrangement and the massive central chimney stack.

Image
The stairs of no. 157 (righ hand house) showing quite light bannisters, but a nice heavy low hand rail with characteristic early sweeping curve up to the knewel post.

Image
The pair as they appeared in Shaw's directory of 1850 with a half round? window in the attic storey of 158, not unlike the Camden Street house.

Image
The pair as shown on Rocque's map, 1756. The returns are shown each on the right hand side, but in reality they are paired in the centre.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby GrahamH » Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:25 pm

Oooh - intriguing as always gunter :)

I must admit to the shame of passing these about twice a week and never having checked them out properly other than acknowledging they were 'suspicious', as with much of this terrace. The permanent rank of buses outside eases the conscience somewhat.

Both the location of the houses and particularly the sneaky staircase shot (always helpful) dates this pair as amongst the last gabled houses to be built in the city - the staircase in particular scraping them into the 1740s. The triple gable is most interesting - here's the roof form today.

Image

The paired returns to the centre as you say gunter are clearly evident.

Brooking shows the terrace as being entirely developed in 1728, but he's not exactly renowned as Mr Accurate.

Image


We also see yet another example of a gabled house being replaced by a tall early Victorian, to the right at No. 156.

Image


Image


More than likely what happened with No. 19 on Thomas Street too.

gunter wrote:Image



The fact that both of the Parnell Street houses were refaced at the same time in the 19th century suggests they remained in single ownership ever since they were built, probably in the typical part-speculative fashion of the builder living in one and leasing the other. And while most pairs of Billies were built as an entity, these pointers still help to reinforce the llklihood that these were triple gabled - built as a grand architectural unit.

They are protected structures.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby gunter » Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:08 pm

I didn't realize they were PSs, that's a step in the right direction.

Shaw's Directory is a fund of information. Quite a lot of the Billys on Henry Street made it into the 1850s almost unaltered and even more survived with just a simple flat parapet masking.

Image
This is the south side of Henry street where the main block of Arnott's is now (on top and the opposing streetscape upside down below)

Image
The west end of Henry Street with no. 1 (upside down) being the corner with Liffey Street. Arnott's starts at no. 7. The caption on the street beside no. 62 say 'Denmark Street', but it can only be the upper end of Liffey Street where the Ilac Centre / corner of Roche's is now.

It reinforces the view that pretty much everything shown on Rocque's Map, with the exception of the Gardiner developments on Henrietta Street, Sackville Mall, Cavendish Street and bits of Malborough Street, consisted of terraces of Dutch Billys with some vernacular structures on the outskirts and a few terraces of triangular gabled houses in the older parts of the centre and in the weaving areas of the Liberties.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby CologneMike » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:28 pm

ake wrote:Can anyone tell me anything about these?; they are in Castle Lane in Limerick, right beside the Castle funnily enough.


Castle Lane

Some critics saw it so . . . . .

Castle Lane received what is probably the single most dubious "heritage" development in the entire country, the £3.8 million EU and Shannon Development Castle Lane beside King Johns Castle.

This includes the "reconstruction" of a 19th. century warehouse of the very type still being demolished in the Milk Market area. It is a Disneyesque piece of historical conceit basically designed as a large tour bus stop pub, while the real heritage of the city suffers progressively accelerating mutilation.

Others i.e. the traditionalists detested the modern castle “Visitors Centre” next door and called it “the thing”. They appear to have no problems with the castle lane theme extension.

Irrespective what Shannon Development / City Council did here (modern or olde worlde) it would have been wrong anyway. Sad reality was the area was in dire need of regeneration with very little of Medieval Limerick left let alone to compliment the castle itself. So they cheated a bit here to re-invent itself!
Attachments
Castle.jpg
Castle.jpg (97.89 KiB) Viewed 5833 times
User avatar
CologneMike
Old Master
 
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:24 pm

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby CologneMike » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:36 pm

gunter wrote:After Dublin, I gather Limerick was 'Billy' central. I'm not aware of any studies or publications on Dutch Billys in Limerick, just the odd glimpse in old photographs, same as Dublin.

I think the pair you've shown beside the castle were just built about ten years ago as some kind of olde worlde backdrop to a pub, I don't think they're supposed to be reconstructions of actual houses on that site, just worthy enough echos of a lost building type. Somebody down there will know, but they probably keep that kind of information to themselves.


Jim Kemmy / Larry Walsh wrote the following in a book called “old Limerick in Postcards”.

After the 1651 Siege of Limerick, all the Catholic merchants were banished, and their places taken by English and Dutch merchants. The Earl of Orrery, governor of the city, brought over dozens of Dutch families, who prospered, particularly in the woollen industry.

The best known of the Dutch families were the Verekers, Vandeleurs, Yorkes, Foxons and D’Esterres, who rose to prominence in local politics. They also influenced the city’s architecture. Tall Dutch-gabled houses were built in many parts of Limerick in the late seventeenth and early eighteenth centuries.

In Broad Street, the houses had steeply pitched gables, while those in the Meat Market and Castle Street and John’s Square had rounded, pointed or pedimented gables. Only two of these gables have survived and can be seen at the rear of the John’s Square houses, beside Brennan’s Row.

With the increasing availability of brick, most of these houses were built with the products of local brickworks, but many retained stone trimmings. They fell into decay when the merchant owners moved out of the Englishtown and Irishtown in the nineteenth century and the new landlords failed to maintain them. The houses became tenements and most were demolished in the 1930’s.

Here a few examples of Dutch-gabled houses from Limerick Museum online.

Image

Building alongside Exchange, rear of St. Mary’s Cathedral (illustration above and first picture below) The second one below is from Mary Street and the last one Castle Street?
Attachments
Exchange.jpg
Exchange.jpg (109.74 KiB) Viewed 5851 times
MaryStreet.jpg
MaryStreet.jpg (122.38 KiB) Viewed 5856 times
CastleStreet.jpg
CastleStreet.jpg (109.24 KiB) Viewed 6056 times
User avatar
CologneMike
Old Master
 
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:24 pm

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby gunter » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:14 pm

Outstanding stuff CologneMike.

That five storey beside the exchange is astonishing, and totally Dutch in the proportions of solid to void on the first floor (second and third floors altered to 3 windows?).

(There is a serious warning here not to trust prints, if that Exchange print is supposed to represent the same house)

Direct Dutch immigration into the Limerick civic elite would help explain the degree to which the city went 'Dutch Billy' mad at a time when Cork City appeared to stay more provincial English. (that's goin' to annoy them down there).

*must add Cork to my list of insultees*
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby newgrange » Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:22 am

gunter wrote:The caption on the street beside no. 62 say 'Denmark Street', but it can only be the upper end of Liffey Street where the Ilac Centre / corner of Roche's is now.


I believe Little Denmark Street ran from there to Parnell Street.
newgrange
Member
 
Posts: 130
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:41 am

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby ctesiphon » Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:56 am

newgrange wrote:I believe Little Denmark Street ran from there to Parnell Street.


Indeed. Now incorporated into the ILAC.

Discussed previously here.
User avatar
ctesiphon
Old Master
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:39 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby GrahamH » Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:38 pm

Fantastic gabled houses in Limerick, CologneMike. That five storey is incredible. Very 'pure' influence there. A high grade import from the Netherlands of a different kind...


Just passing the Parnell Street Billies this evening, I just knew given their dishevelled state that they'd have to retain their original corner chimney breasts in the shops. And just like clockwork :):

Image


Back to back.

Image


Wonderful stuff. Billies are so predictable: where they do survive they nearly always follow a common pattern of being a black sheep for nearly all of their life - always the budget conversion, never the bride. Hence the common survial of the basic structure, with basic cosmetic changes.

What I love about the first shop above is you can sense as clear as anything the smallness and intimacy of the original living room when you stand in the shop. It's got a lovely domestic scale - you can just imagine a roaring corner fire, cosy timber panelling, a heavy timber cornice, and creaky floorboards beneath you feet. Love to get exploring in there.

It's very interesting gunter that you should highlight the proliferation of Billies formerly on Henry Street prior to eradication in 1916. I've often wondered the reasoning for the popularity of Billy Revival along the southern side of the street in the late 1910s - it didn't feature anywhere else in the extensive post-1916 reconstructions.

Image



Image

(there are better examples than this)

Image

There seems little doubt that a clear reference was being drawn from past forms by Dublin architects as far back as the early 20th century. Pity we've become so unimaginative in the ensuing 90 years.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby ctesiphon » Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:35 am

GrahamH wrote:Wonderful stuff. Billies are so predictable: where they do survive they nearly always follow a common pattern of being a black sheep for nearly all of their life - always the budget conversion, never the bride. Hence the common survial of the basic structure, with basic cosmetic changes.


Except- couldn't it be the case that the more lavish conversions are no longer detectable from visual evidence? i.e. just because all we see today are the budget ones doesn't mean they're all that survived.
User avatar
ctesiphon
Old Master
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:39 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby GrahamH » Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:54 am

Absolutely. Only in those elaborate cases the corner fireplaces, pokey returns, panelled stud hall walls and other more structural elements would be definition be knocked out for reasons of fashion. But good point, presumably there's many Georgians around that retain the side and back walls of Billies...
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby gunter » Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:32 am

Trying to track the pattern of alterations can be very difficult. In a lot of cases there was simply the removal of the front curvilinear gable and pediment and it's replacement by a flat parapet. In other cases the whole pitch of the roof was altered in what seems like over-kill, but which may have been renovation 'best practice' at the time. Depending on how thoroughly the roof alterations were carried out, it can be difficult to decide whether we're dealing with an altered Billy, or instead, a transitional Georgian that just retains some lingering characterists of the earlier Billy building tradition.

5 & 6 Benburb Street would be a case in point. On one level they look like unremarkable later 18th, or even early 19th century houses, but on another level, if the roof pitch was steeper (and ideally cruciform), this pair would be obvious Dutch Billys.

Image
No. 6 Benburb St.

Image
No. 5

Image
Rear of 5 & 6 (obviously built as a pair) seen through gates on Hendrick Street.

The deep red brick of no. 6 is another clue, and the feature which may have tipped the balance with DCC to give this one Protected Structure status. The rear elevation and return arrangement, assuming the roof pitch has been lowered, is classic Dutch Billy, as is the central shared chimney stack.

Hopefully the interior of these houses preserves some intact early features to settle the matter.

The interesting thing is that these two house appear today, on plan, exactly how they appear on Rocque's map (1756) and if we go further back to Brooking's map, these streets are shown fully developed in 1728. Taking the map evidence together with the external visual evidence, it would be hard to argue that these two aren't a nice pair of, slightly altered, 280 year old Dutch Billys waiting for a bit of TLC.

Image
Rocque with 5 & 6 Benburb Street (Gravel Walk) outlined in red. (Sorry copy of Brooking is not postable quality)
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby CologneMike » Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:52 pm

gunter wrote:Direct Dutch immigration into the Limerick civic elite would help explain the degree to which the city went 'Dutch Billy' mad at a time when Cork City appeared to stay more provincial English.


Judith Hill writes in her book “The Building of Limerick” how much the gabled houses owe to the Dutch inhabitants of Limerick is debatable.

The Pacata map of 1633 showed gables fronting Broad Street in Irish Town. If this was an established tradition it was continued when the Dutch gabled houses were built in the late seventeenth or early eighteenth century.

I summarise here as to what she basically wrote in that after the 1691 treaty, the city’s housing stock was severally damaged.

The new Dutch immigrants built their houses using lighter materials, rectangular windows which improved lighting etc, etc thus giving them a fashionable appearance.

It seems reasonable that the existing inhabitants might have found this new style to be an improvement and adopt it for themselves. That much of the existing housing stock had roof ridges at right angles to the street so that each house presented a separate gable at the front. Such buildings could be easily 'converted' into Dutch houses i.e. old stoned houses received a new façade with a red brick skin, with large vertical windows.

I was unsure of the street location of this picture. It was not Castle Street but in fact take at Meat Market Lane, off Sheep St.

Image

The Limerick Museum reveals a print with Dutch Gables on Castle Street. See below.

Print, lithograph, b/w framed. "King John's Castle/ Limerick/ Dublin Published by S. Brocas, 15 Henry St., Jan 7 1826", at centre bottom, at left "Drawn on Stone by S. Brocas" at right "Printed by M.H. & J.W. Allen, 32 Dame St.," View from on Thomond Bridge looking towards Nicholas Street, with a carriage drawn by four horses, with 4 men on top, about to enter onto the bridge; at left tall Dutch gabled buildings line the street, at right lower seemingly semi-derelict buildings in front of castle; at right the two towers of the castle gatehouse are in ruinous state, and the N.W. tower is cut at edge of frame.
Attachments
JC.jpg
JC.jpg (154.13 KiB) Viewed 6334 times
User avatar
CologneMike
Old Master
 
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:24 pm

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby Devin » Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:34 pm

ake wrote:Can anyone tell me anything about these?; they are in Castle Lane in Limerick, right beside the Castle funnily enough.

Image

I'm ignorant about dutch billys so these could be recreations for all I know but the brick looks very fine for that.
Article on that from the time:


Historical pastiche a dubious tribute to Limerick's heritage

Shannon Development rolled out the red carpet last weekend for the official opening of its latest flagship project, a £3.8 million tourism development involving the construction of a street beside King John's Castle and the refurbishment of its visitor centre.

Castle Lane contains "a blend of several different examples of Limerick's architectural heritage" - a mid-18th century granary, two early 18th century "Dutch Billy" gabled houses, a more humble urban labourer's cottage and a stone-fronted merchant's house with a 17th century appearance.

All beautifully built by Michael McNamara and Company, the complex is the end-product of market research commissioned by Shannon Development which identified the need for a "magnet tourism project" for Limerick that might transform it into an "international tourist destination".

The State's only regional development company had a problem. The grey metal-clad visitor centre at the castle, built in 1990, had never won public approval; Cllr John Gilligan, an independent member of Limerick Corporation, once invited "the entire populace" to throw stones at the offending structure.

Browbeaten by this continuing controversy, Shannon Development turned away from contemporary architecture towards quasihistorical pastiche when it came to building Castle Lane - despite strenuous objections from the Heritage Council, which felt such a solution would lack authenticity.

The National Monuments Service opposes the scheme because it meant building in the early 13th century castle moat, parallel to its southern wall. This involved abandoning earlier plans to line Castle Lane with "medieval" buildings, forcing Shannon Development to pick a later period for its project.

Murray O'Laoire, the award-winning architects' firm which designed the castle's visitor centre, believed a contemporary building would be the most appropriate solution. But its advice was rejected, although it was persuaded to stay on, at least, as project managers, leaving the design work for others.

Mr Hugh Murray, who heads the firm's Limerick office, said last weekend he was unhappy about a Shannon Development press release listing Murray O'Laoire as the architects. "I've always said that, no matter what happens, I'll be defending the visitor centre but I won't be defending [Castle Lane]."

To counter public loathing of the visitor centre, Event Ireland - which specialises in heritage projects - was commissioned to improve its appearance by fixing a series of full-height heraldic banners on both sides of the structure. These give the building a lift, making it look more festive.

The visitor centre forecourt has also been re-ordered, with the moat and bridge removed and steel handrails replaced by timber. Inside, the "complete refurbishment" includes covering up the main windows to provide space for wax dummies in full regalia of James II, William III and others involved in the Siege of Limerick.

As for the buildings on Castle Lane, the "mid-18th century" granary at the corner of Nicholas Street will be the new home of Limerick City Museum; it is relocating there from a real Georgian house on John's Square. The remaining buildings constitute a very large "themed pub".

The pair of Dutch Billys, nicely tuck-pointed and "authentic" in every detail, house the kitchen and toilets of the new Castle Lane Tavern; one entrance is a fire exit from the pub. And the humble labourer's house next door is also part of this "re-created early 18th century tavern".

Executed by McNally Design, responsible for numerous Irish "themed pubs" abroad, it has beams decorated with old carpenter's tools to evoke a workshop while upstairs visitors are seated at trestle tables in a room with painted trompe l'oeil blockwork on the walls and even the ceiling.

At both levels, the "labourer's cottage" opens out into the "17th century merchant's house", which contains a "gentry bar" with a stone-built fireplace on the ground-floor and an even larger one upstairs, where the high ceiling, supported by king-post trusses, is decorated in mid-19th century Gothic Revival style, after Pugin.

The piece de resistance is an oriel window in the corner, which offers a panoramic view over the River Shannon; otherwise, because the windows are relatively small and there are few of them, the building fails to capitalise on its location - though Castle Lane does link Nicholas Street with the riverside walk.

"In essence, from an architectural viewpoint, the buildings which make up Castle Lane represent different examples of Limerick's built heritage of which some [notably the Dutch gables] are now largely lost to us," says Shannon Development. "They represent a tribute to an architectural legacy which is being increasingly destroyed."

This is part of the problem. While the new quasi-historical complex was clad in brick and stone salvaged from buildings demolished in Limerick, it is clear the city is failing to look after its real architectural heritage; a plethora of PVC windows deface the Crescent, centrepiece of Georgian Limerick.

Shannon Development is on firmer ground with its latest project at Bunratty Folk Park. This involved re-erecting a redundant Regency Gothic Church of Ireland parish church from Ardcroney, near Borrisokane, Co Tipperary. There are even plans to plant yew trees to make it look as if it has always been there.

Bunratty Folk Park also contains several invented buildings, and there is nothing wrong with that because they stand within a corral. But was it right to build quasi-historical buildings at Castle Lane in the heart of Limerick?

Frank McDonald

© The Irish Times, May 22, 1998

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/1998/0522/98052200005.html
Devin
Old Master
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:27 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby newgrange » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:02 pm

Found this today.
Browne Street off Weaver Square.
No date, sorry.
Attachments
browne_st_billy_small.jpg
browne_st_billy_small.jpg (47.56 KiB) Viewed 5672 times
newgrange
Member
 
Posts: 130
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:41 am

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby gunter » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:43 pm

newgrange wrote:Found this today.
Browne Street off Weaver Square.
No date, sorry.


newgrange: that solves a puzzle that's been bothering me for ages. The house I posted earlier in the thread that's always been published as Pimlico, is actually your Billy on Brown Street. This explains why I could never get a location on Pimlico to exactly match.

Image

CologneMike: Those three Billys you say were on Meat Market Lane in Limerick are astonishing. Dutch Billys that weren't faced in red brick are almost unknown, but these three houses appear to have been constructed in rubble stone, with just some brick in the window surrounds.

There was a great house in Kilmainham, known locally as 'Shakespeare House', that has been speculated to have been gable fronted, due to the top floor window arrangement, and we know it was built by a Dublin lawyer around 1725 putting it right in the middle of the Dutch Billy boom, but the problem is that it was built entirely in stone. It always seemed to be a bit fancyful to speculate that Shakespeare House (real name; Riversdale House) had a tripple gabled facade and even more so to suggest that the gables were curvilinear and pedimented, but your photograph of the Limerick houses puts a different complexion on this.

That there may have been a vernacular baroque wing of the Dutch Billy movement adds another chapter to the story.

Image
A few remnants of Riversdale House (no. 40 Old Kilmainham) survive, but the bulk of the house was pulled down about 1965. The statue over the front door was of Shakespeare, but that's too long a story to get into tonight.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby Devin » Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:35 am

The 4-storey house on the left foreground of Newgrange’s pic is still standing, isn’t it?

Just a general point on this thread: While we are calling these gable-fronted houses of Dublin “Dutch Billys”, probably most of them date to after King Billy’s reign (1689-1702). Probably many of them seen in old photographs aren’t any older than about 1730.

And of course anything after 1715 is technically "Georgian".
Devin
Old Master
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:27 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby gunter » Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:18 am

'Dutch Billy' isn't a technical term Devin, it's a nickname, but it seems to be an authentic nickname from the period in question.

The Brown Street house, or houses?, opposite the 'gable fronted house' (you see this is why we call them Billys) in newgrange's picture is still there. The right hand half has a number of 'Billy' characteristics, but I don't think it's shown on Rocque, which puts it well into your Georgian period.

We did talk about this ages ago, I'm going to have to check your homework.

Image Image
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby Devin » Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:08 pm

Yes I know "Dutch Billy" is is a generic term, just not a very accurate one.

I recall searching for the Brown Street house on old maps and finding it didn't appear any earlier than the middle 19th century.
Devin
Old Master
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:27 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby gunter » Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:42 pm

Devin wrote:Yes I know "Dutch Billy" is is a generic term, just not a very accurate one.

I recall searching for the Brown Street house on old maps and finding it didn't appear any earlier than the middle 19th century.


Trying to get architectural movements to fit the actual life span of individual English monarchs was never going to be easy ;).

The Brown Street house is an oddity. It had a classic 1760s -80s pillared & pedimented door case (in newgrange's pic) but, as you say the 1797 map just shows gardens here, when the houses on the other side of the street are clearly shown.

Personally I'd be inclined to doubt the accuracy of the map in this case. Between Rocque and the first Ordnance Survey in 1838, the maps are not great on detail and the focus was all on the Georgian expansion and the big infra-structural projects, like the Quays, the canals and the Circular Roads, individual houses in secondary locations may just not have registered with them.

Must go back down to Brown St. and see if there's any remains of the 'Pimlico' house, I don't think that site has been redeveloped.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby Rory W » Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:06 pm

looked up (what I believe) the approximate location of the house on Browne steet on Microsoft Maps and it looks like there is nothing but a modern wall left on the site
Rory W
Old Master
 
Posts: 1331
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Drogheda & Blackrock

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby ctesiphon » Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:59 pm

User avatar
ctesiphon
Old Master
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:39 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 'Dutch Billys'

Postby gunter » Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:22 pm

Apartment block so.

I don't suppose they recovered the house plan from the foundation layout!
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland