Hotel planned for gasometer site

Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby jdivision » Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:20 pm

Think this one hasn't been posted yet.
From Sunday Business Post on 23/12

The distinctive Alliance apartment building, which forms part of the Gasworks development on South Lotts Road, Dublin 4, is to be turned into a hotel.
Property developer Liam Carroll has applied for planning permission to turn the former gasometer near the south docks in Dublin into one of the largest hotels in Ireland. The building contains 210 apartments, which came on the market price with prices starting at E675,000.
Carroll has now asked Dublin City Council for permission to convert the existing nine-storey building into a 520-bedroom hotel with ancillary services. The plans include the construction of a four-storey glazed roof from first floor level over the internal courtyard.
This will allow the existing apartments to be incorporated into a new hotel area. The number of parking spaces will be reduced to 335. One hotel industry source said he was ``flabbergasted'' by the number of bedrooms proposed in the scheme, which would make it the largest hotel in Dublin city. The Burlington Hotel is currently the largest hotel in Dublin, but it has been sold for redevelopment and will close its doors for the last time on January 2.
Carroll is likely to target delegates at the National Conference Centre for his hotel, which he is likely to operate himself. The developer of the conference centre -- a consortium of Treasury Holdings, CIE and Harry Crosbie -- also recently submitted planning application for a 35-storey hotel, widely expected to be operated by Marriott, next to the centre.
Carroll is unlikely to be able to secure top rates for rooms, however, as industry sources said his planned hotel lacked enough facilities to attract top room rates.
Carroll applied for planning permission for several schemes in recent days. Apart from the hotel development, he has also sought planning permission to expand one of the office buildings in the Gasworks scheme, Gordon House, which is let to internet search engine Google. The developer is seeking to add 5,617 square metres of office space to the building.
However, a spokesman for Google said that the expansion was not something that the company had specifically requested. Carroll had put foundations in place to allow the expansion of Gordon House when the existing portion of it was built.
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It's a pity it's being done to be honest
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby GrahamH » Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:43 am

I'd agree - a distinctive place to live lost to a distinctive place to sleep for a night. This was supposed to set a new standard for residential conversions in Ireland so it's a real shame. It has the ring of a hotel-turned-office proposal from the 80s. At least it has only stepped one rung down the ladder. So I take it the apartments have yet to be even laid out inside? No wonder the building has been vacant for so long since structural completion.

At least it'll be an iconic hotel and good for the image of the city. 520 bed is enormous for a city site: the same size as the just-closed Burlington. Citywest, the largest in the country, is now around 1300 - a world of its own in every respect...
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby jdivision » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:16 am

How many will be in the Shay Cleary one at the NCC?
I think the aparments were laid out Graham, they went on view and people put down deposits so they must have been able to see the fit out and so on. A lot of kitchens to be ripped out if that's the case!
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby GrahamH » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:34 am

Extraordinary. Given the spec of the development though, it sounds likely fit-outs would have been tailored to owners' requests upon purchase, in which case perhaps only show apartments were fitted out.
Surely though they're going to at least make us of party walls?!

I'd imagine the NCC hotel is circling around the 600 bed mark, presuming the block to be two rooms deep arranged along axial corridors.
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby Andrew Duffy » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:56 am

You can see right in to virtually every apartment thanks to the floor-to-ceiling windows, and the building is entirely fitted out, even down to wardrobes and kitchen units. There was no scope for customisation - basically, the asking prices (€1m+ for an 850 square foot two bedroom apartment) were simply too high.
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby GrahamH » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:02 am

Madness! So had people actually purchased I wonder? When does one make the decision that 200+ apartments are not going to sell? How do you call stop?

This project is of Centre Point proportions - extraordinary how economics dictate matters so late into the game.
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby jdivision » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:19 am

Deposits had been put down by some people and Carroll later returned them. Liam's wealthy enough not to have to worry about apartments not selling Graham
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:34 pm

[quote="GrahamH"]Extraordinary. Given the spec of the development though, it sounds likely fit-outs would have been tailored to owners' requests upon purchase, in which case perhaps only show apartments were fitted out.
Surely though they're going to at least make us of party walls?!
QUOTE]

I tried to see the application on DCC's website but no mention of any of them. I'd like to read it though as I thiiiiink it could be that he's going to go for an apart-hotel where the apartments remain wholly or semi - intact. They're common in France and actually much better value for families as an apartment for 2 nights is competitive compared to 2 hotel rooms for 2 nights. You also have kitchens etc.

The 220 apartments probably have 520 beds between them. Basically you're renting an apartment for a night rather than a hotel room. The lower floors would be redeveloped into communal activities you'd find in a standard hotel.This would also tie in with the whole conference thing. It's not dissimilar to the four seasons converting its top floors into private penthouses.
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby jdivision » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:44 pm

I'm not sure if it's even been submitted yet. Planning notice was in the papers though
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby KerryBog2 » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:04 pm

The Burlo is expected to reopen in Spring, probably a similar deal as the one Dunner did with John Brennan on the Jurys site. Allianz remains in Burlington House, and awaits a move to new premises in Elm Park, supposedly part of the deal done when McN acquired their Burlingto Hse. Several IFSC companies have leased apartments in the Gasworks complex, talking to a mate who visited one he said that you stared straight across at the neighbours and most of them never got any direct sunlight.

I agree with wearnicehats on the aparthotel success in France but most of them are in fringe locations, not comparable to D4. City centre ones in Paris are v. expensive.
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby lostexpectation » Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:09 am

im confused so the apartments weren't selling?

I was under impression the place was full of residents happily living life...
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby Andrew Duffy » Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:00 pm

KerryBog2 wrote:Talking to a mate who visited one he said that you stared straight across at the neighbours and most of them never got any direct sunlight.


This is not true. Despite the boring architecture, the apartments are large, there is a lot of open space and there are very few North facing units. Oddly, the worst apartments were those that were most expensive - the ones in the gasholder. However, arrogant pricing is the problem.
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby Bago » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:12 pm

lostexpectation wrote:im confused so the apartments weren't selling?

I was under impression the place was full of residents happily living life...
Not a soul, apparantely quite eerie, even the very expensive centre piece mature tree is dead!

edit: i'm getting a feeling some people think the whole complex is empty, just the circular building is empty.
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby KerryBog2 » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:17 pm

Andrew Duffy wrote:This is not true. Despite the boring architecture, the apartments are large, there is a lot of open space and there are very few North facing units. Oddly, the worst apartments were those that were most expensive - the ones in the gasholder. However, arrogant pricing is the problem.


I'm not so sure, AD. The view from the DART suggests that they do not get much light. When I've the bank balance back in line after the Christmas I will rise to a decent bottle and invite myself over for a look-see. My friend is French, so he might be biased or have higher standards! Light or no light, 850 sq.ft is not "large" - my 2-bed in NYC was 1100 sq. ft. and that did not include the balcony.
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby Andrew Duffy » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:45 am

I should have put "by Irish standards" after that. Although most of Europe seems to have pretty small apartments compared to the USA.

I live in the Gasworks, and due to the expanse of Southwest facing glass summer 2006 was unbearable - we were ringing air conditioning companies. Unsurprisingly, summer 2007 was not a problem.
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby manifesta » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:37 pm

I'm a huge fan of the redesign of the old Alliance gasholder, but I wonder how the design will be compromised if and when converted into a hotel. The simplicity of the design, especially the open air courtyard, is part of what makes this design work.

Image

Pictures taken 9 months ago. Shame to hear that the poor old tree has died!

Image

One hopes to avoid the inevitable tacky GASWORKS HOTEL signage that would no doubt blight the entrance.

Image

Mixed feelings on this news. It always seems dishonest when a design is re-conceptualized so late in the game, in this case from apartments to hotel. But from a supremely selfish standpoint, I wouldn't mind the chance to spend a night or two in the structure. Hard to tell if it's one of those pieces of architecture that's better from the outside in.
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby tommyt » Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:59 am

Fantastic opportunity for some well designed neon signage if it is converted. FWIW I was down there having a good snoop when it was under construction and I remember thinking it would be a hard sell to the more conservative Irish property purchaser at the time.
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby Andrew Duffy » Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:54 am

I think the tree is just sleeping for the winter, by the way, rather than dead. It looks exactly the same as it did in manifesta's picture.
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby manifesta » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:53 pm

Maybe it's pining for the fjords?
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby df1711 » Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:41 pm

by the looks of it the tree get very little sunlight, so its probably dead.
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby jdivision » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:47 am

Went down to have a look at the application during the week. Don't remember seeing the tree. Central seating and reception area with a glazed infill that seemed to rise from second floor level to an apex in the middle at fourth storey level with two sculptures (perhaps one of them the tree) jutting through. I only looked at one image because the Google hq application was my focus.
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby Paul Clerkin » Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:33 am

Gasometer hotel plan rejected

Olivia Kelly

Dublin city councillors have rejected plans to turn an empty apartment block at the site of the former gasworks in Ringsend into a 520-bed hotel and to increase the size of the neighbouring Google building by more than a third.

Developer Liam Carroll, the man behind Fabrizia and one of Ireland's most prolific developers, is seeking to turn the vacant apartment building constructed inside the metal struts of the Victorian gasometer into a hotel to recoup his losses on the apartments which failed to sell.

He is also seeking to extend the floor space of the building occupied by the European headquarters of search engine Google, which is also within the 7.8-acre gasworks site, from almost 15,000sq m to 20,600sq m, although, according to local councillors, Google has not requested any extension.

Some 400 apartments in the scheme immediately adjacent to the Gasometer are occupied and councillors have recommended that the city planners refuse permission to Mr Carroll for the change to the hotel and for the extension to the Google building.

Labour councillor Kevin Humphreys said the developer was allowed to build the 210 apartments within the former gasometer with the condition that he provide 20 per cent of these for social and affordable housing.

"The council should be getting a 20 per cent share in these apartments, that is what we're entitled to." In relation to Google, "moral blackmail" had been employed to suggest that refusing planning permission for the extension would result in a loss of jobs.

"My information is that Google neither requested nor wants the additional floor space, but because of a flaw in the lease, Fabrizia is forcing Google to take the additional floor space."

Daithí Doolan (SF) said both applications were an "absolute disgrace" and that the area was already saturated with hotels, and the extension of the Google building would completely overshadow the neighbouring single-storey houses.

Dermot Lacey (Lab) said permission had been given for the apartments on the basis of an integrated plan for the area which never envisioned a hotel.

"This is an ill-conceived, ill-thought-out, cheap attempt to make a big profit, which is not in the interest of the local residents, not in the interest of the city and not in the interest of planning," Mr Lacey said.

Paddy McCartan (FG) said the plans were lacking in detail but appeared to suggest a hotel at the lower end of the market which would cater for "stag and hen parties and be out of kilter with the rest of the development."

Objections to the planning applications must be made to the council by February 4th.
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby paul h » Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:17 am

Am i missing something, why would this be refused?
Didnt a couple of large hotels just close, not too far from here:confused:
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby notjim » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:19 am

paul h: As I understand it, this isn't the decision or a refusal, this is the commentary from a local planning committee in the council.
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Re: Hotel planned for gasometer site

Postby Andrew Duffy » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:34 am

The comment about social and affordable housing is incorrect as the Gasworks' planning permission predates the requirement. My letterbox has been full of leaflets from the local councillors over the last few weeks; I wish they would use real arguments against this (how will South Lotts road deal with the traffic caused by a 520 bedroom hotel, how will coaches access a front door that is 100m from the road, how will the hotel's parking lot be seperated from the apartments' lot, how much disturbance will the entrance to the hotel and bar (which will be _inside_ the complex, not facing the road) cause, instead of ill-informed ones.
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