U value detector

U value detector

Postby sinnerboy » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:06 pm

Any body know of a device , like a moisture meter , that can detect U values in built construction ? I am trying to figure out how BER assessors , when asked to cert , say for a 20 year old apartment will arrive at u value for construction spec that cannot be established for certain without opening up works
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Re: U value detector

Postby henno » Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:44 am

Firstly, the BER certification will not be required until 1st January 2009....

and secondly, AFAIK, the methodology for calculating the u value of existing buildings hasnt been accepted yet....

oh, and Thermal Infrared Imaging is the usual method to detect heat loss, but i dont know how this can would be used to define u values...
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Re: U value detector

Postby DOC » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:38 am

henno wrote:AFAIK, the methodology for calculating the u value of existing buildings hasnt been accepted yet


Correct henno - there is no agreed methodology for existing building as yet. SEI, as far as I am aware, are only now starting to look at this.

One suggested way that this may be dealt with is to catagorise buildings by era, e.g. Victorian, Edwardian, 1950s, 1970s, etc. and compile a table of general construction methods of those times and have generic assumed u-values for the types of construction or for later buildings, assume that min. building regulations of that time have been complied with.

Not an excat science but neither is the current method for new houses - when I did my BER assessor exam almost everbody got a slightly different rating/result for the house we had to assees but nobody failed the exam!

As far as I am aware there is no such device that can calculate a u-value by placing against a wall - would be good! One way they assess existing buildings in UK is by sending in a mini camera into the cavites in the walls - like in keyhole surgery - to establish the exact construction and insulation.
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Re: U value detector

Postby sinnerboy » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:50 am

Specifically re BER I see trouble ahead on numerous counts . ( 2009 onwards mostly )

Scenario 1
Landlord sends in 3 BER assessors , pays for the "correct" result and two fingers to the guys who got it "wrong" .

Scenario 2
Big business sues assessor for screwing up property deal for getting assessment "wrong"

Scenario 3
Developer cherry picks "pet" assessors who get it "right" . Developer cherry picks sample units for testing , where extra attention required for air tightness has been carried out . Developer will have "pet " air testers too .

Scenario 4 - the big one
General public (mis) apprehension that BER cert won't actually predict actual fuel spend - reaction - "so what am I paying for then" - Call Joe Duffy now . Fat Kenny "exposes" scam on Shite Shite Show .

Scenario 5 - linked to all above
Perceived income stream for architects will not be realized and BER assessment procedure just adds to onerous burdens . Client will expect it as part of usual service . Insurance premiums will rise but fee income will not .

Overview IMO ( not H )

Profession should abandon B reg certification entirely - we should move to the UK Local Authority Building Control Approval Application system with frequent building control officer inspections during construction - this actually works
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Re: U value detector

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:44 pm

DOC wrote: One way they assess existing buildings in UK is by sending in a mini camera into the cavites in the walls - like in keyhole surgery - to establish the exact construction and insulation.


they'd have a hard time doing that in my 100 year old terrace gaff. No cavity, no insulation. The roof is insulated. Haven't had the heating on once since early April.
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Re: U value detector

Postby henno » Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:56 pm

sinnerboy... have you done a BER assessment course???

if you have you would know that the system is designed to be completely transparent and standardised.
The client has to provide the information, therefore the 3 assessors should have negliable differences if any....

if any assessor is consistantly giving out good ratings, then they WILL be assessed and all the paperwork, that they are duty bound to keep, will be thoroughly assessed......

The assessor are under license from the government, they DO NOT work for the client, unless the client engages them seperately in an advisory capacity which is seperate from the BER assessment.


Oh, and the BER is and never will be designed to 'predict actual fuel spend'... why are you under this illusion??? where did you hear that one???
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Re: U value detector

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:04 pm

henno wrote: where did you hear that one???


maybe Rory Gallagher told him
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Re: U value detector

Postby DOC » Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:40 pm

wearnicehats wrote:they'd have a hard time doing that in my 100 year old terrace gaff. No cavity, no insulation. The roof is insulated. Haven't had the heating on once since early April.
N/A !

Totally agree with sinnerboy that the whole self-certification thing in this country is mad!
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Re: U value detector

Postby sinnerboy » Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:33 pm

henno wrote:sinnerboy... have you done a BER assessment course???

if you have you would know that the system is designed to be completely transparent and standardised.
The client has to provide the information, therefore the 3 assessors should have negliable differences if any....

if any assessor is consistantly giving out good ratings, then they WILL be assessed and all the paperwork, that they are duty bound to keep, will be thoroughly assessed......

The assessor are under license from the government, they DO NOT work for the client, unless the client engages them seperately in an advisory capacity which is seperate from the BER assessment.


Oh, and the BER is and never will be designed to 'predict actual fuel spend'... why are you under this illusion??? where did you hear that one???


Henno

I am too young to be cynical and not old enough to be wise , but I believe will time will prove me correct .

No I confess i have not yet done the BER course and maybe I am being prejudiced . But my prejudice is based on experience .

My point is that I believe the public post 2009 , who will have to obtain a cert when selling or sub letting their home will regard the cert as another tax / red tape procedure and will feel ripped off to learn that it is not a fuel cost predictor . Subtle but very real pressures will corrupt the process as I have outlined .

The draft L regs ( changing tack a little now ) make no provision to regulate WHO does air pressure testing .
Call me cynical but I believe that "soft" assessors and "soft" air testers will be quickly obtained and favored by developers . this is a serious weak link in the chain as rigorous testing will be required to ensure compliance with Thermal Continuity and Air Tightness requirements

Both should be the function of Local Authorities . I have seen the system wok so well in London - the DS ( district surveyor ) is well respected and his word is accepted by clients , contractors and architects as "the last word" .

To be frank the experience here is that the architect faces constant attrition
From
" are you SURE the regs say that " - polite device to kill time and build over suspect construction
to
"the architect on our other site is not making us do this" - no translation needed I presume

So the current regime gives us pyritic hardcore , intimate knowledge of our neighbors via crappy party walls ,
and god knows how many disingenuous "Storage / Bedroom" ( wink wink ) attic conversions all across the country....

I don't share your good faith in the regime proposed to implement the necessary changes required to improve how we build in Ireland . I attended "Stage A" of the BER assessor course this week where in a nutshell we talked through in detail the features of the SEI software programme , which is

1. NOT commonly available to architect generally but only to those who sign up for the full BER course . ( The rest of us can have the EXcell download thanks very much ) And the best part .....
2. it is about to be obsolete pretty quickly when the new regs kick in .

So with Brian Cowen signaling the end of good times we can look back on ten years of economic growth which have failed to deliver a functioning health care , public transport , water supply , drainage , education or police service and wonder ..... what delivery ( of anything ) can we expect now that the arse is gone from our trousers ?:mad:
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Re: U value detector

Postby henno » Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:58 pm

sinnerboy wrote:Henno

I am too young to be cynical and not old enough to be wise , but I believe will time will prove me correct .

No I confess i have not yet done the BER course and maybe I am being prejudiced . But my prejudice is based on experience .

My point is that I believe the public post 2009 , who will have to obtain a cert when selling or sub letting their home will regard the cert as another tax / red tape procedure and will feel ripped off to learn that it is not a fuel cost predictor . Subtle but very real pressures will corrupt the process as I have outlined .

The draft L regs ( changing tack a little now ) make no provision to regulate WHO does air pressure testing .
Call me cynical but I believe that "soft" assessors and "soft" air testers will be quickly obtained and favored by developers . this is a serious weak link in the chain as rigorous testing will be required to ensure compliance with Thermal Continuity and Air Tightness requirements

Both should be the function of Local Authorities . I have seen the system wok so well in London - the DS ( district surveyor ) is well respected and his word is accepted by clients , contractors and architects as "the last word" .

To be frank the experience here is that the architect faces constant attrition
From
" are you SURE the regs say that " - polite device to kill time and build over suspect construction
to
"the architect on our other site is not making us do this" - no translation needed I presume

So the current regime gives us pyritic hardcore , intimate knowledge of our neighbors via crappy party walls ,
and god knows how many disingenuous "Storage / Bedroom" ( wink wink ) attic conversions all across the country....

I don't share your good faith in the regime proposed to implement the necessary changes required to improve how we build in Ireland . I attended "Stage A" of the BER assessor course this week where in a nutshell we talked through in detail the features of the SEI software programme , which is

1. NOT commonly available to architect generally but only to those who sign up for the full BER course . ( The rest of us can have the EXcell download thanks very much ) And the best part .....
2. it is about to be obsolete pretty quickly when the new regs kick in .

So with Brian Cowen signaling the end of good times we can look back on ten years of economic growth which have failed to deliver a functioning health care , public transport , water supply , drainage , education or police service and wonder ..... what delivery ( of anything ) can we expect now that the arse is gone from our trousers ?:mad:


Sinnerboy, my post was not an attack on you..... i was just worried that what you were insinuating was something you may have been 'taught' incorrectly....

Its hard to convince you of the quality and standards of the assessment procedure if you havent been on a course.. believe me, 99% of the people who did the course with me had the same views as you going into it... but all suspicions were satiated during the course....

The situation were 'soft' assessors will be targeted by developers may arise, but this will be quickly spotted (for the reason i gave above)..... its up to a professional to act professionally, otherwise he will be stripped of what basically is a license....
The necessity for the assessors to keep a paper trial is set down in codes of conduct, this basically means that any assessment can be fully investigated at any time.....

Yes, the DEAP software will be obsolete when the new regs kick in, but like any software it can (and will) be updated,.....

And also Yes, the building control section of the local authorities SHOULD be the legislative body that certifies construction, but like any public sector body.. .they do not have the resources to do this..... its considered a success if a building control section of a LA gets to visit 15% of total new dwelling once in the construction period....... how could we expect anything more from such low standards of professionalism.....

Your points are correct and well meaning, perhaps once i shared your views, but due to may experiences of the ineptitudes of LAs, ive come to expect nothing more from them.... they are unable to deal with their current workload so dont expect them to take more on....

on a side note, on under-resourcing, i know one LA that has to go to Bulgaria to interview prospective employees due to the lack of interest here in ireland for engineering positions......... madness!!!!!
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Re: U value detector

Postby sinnerboy » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:25 pm

No sweat Henno .
time will tell , hope your right , hope i'm wrong .....
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Re: U value detector

Postby sinnerboy » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:30 pm

wearnicehats wrote:maybe Rory Gallagher told him


He did - "Whats Goin On"
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Re: U value detector

Postby mahoney.john » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:42 am

sinnerboy wrote:Any body know of a device , like a moisture meter , that can detect U values in built construction ? I am trying to figure out how BER assessors , when asked to cert , say for a 20 year old apartment will arrive at u value for construction spec that cannot be established for certain without opening up works


The U –Value is determined by the reciprocal of thermal resistances of each component of a building envelope component.
The following are some typical U-values of building components. (This may widely differ depending on the
composition of each item, variations in conditions, variations in physical properties etc.)U Value of Glass = 5.68 W/m2degC (single glazing)U Value of a wall = 1.76 W/m2degC (Brick & Plaster)U Value of a Roof = 0.971
W/m2degC (insulated concrete Roof Slab)

It is apparent therefore a lower value in your building envelope saves you quite a lot in energy bills.
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Re: U value detector

Postby Bren88 » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:24 pm

mahoney.john wrote:The U –Value is determined by the reciprocal of thermal resistances of each component of a building envelope component.
The following are some typical U-values of building components. (This may widely differ depending on the
composition of each item, variations in conditions, variations in physical properties etc.)U Value of Glass = 5.68 W/m2degC (single glazing)U Value of a wall = 1.76 W/m2degC (Brick & Plaster)U Value of a Roof = 0.971
W/m2degC (insulated concrete Roof Slab)

It is apparent therefore a lower value in your building envelope saves you quite a lot in energy bills.


Em, What are you talking about?
For a start this thread is from 2007, and besides, you post is nonsense. I'm certain that Sinnerboy and everyone else is aware what a U-Value is and how it is calculated. But that was never part of the discussion here.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing
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