One Berkley court -132m Tower

Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby wearnicehats » Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:33 pm

jdivision wrote:That won't happen because eligible purchasers wouldn't be able to afford them. Hopefully they'll get more than the frankly disgraceful e500,000 they accepted in lieu of s&a housing at the eventual Chester Beatty library redevelopment on Shrewsbury Rd.


it would never happen for one very simple reason. Service Charge. Services charges are huge in developments like this and LA's won't pay them which is why they always accept a pay-off or a brush-off to ringsend. Developers know this and it's the same countrywide
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby mickletterfrack » Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:12 am

If we are to debate this then what we require is at least some honesty about the real matter at stake. Don’t be fooled by those who take the high moral design ground supporting this development, speaking of its being a signature 21st century project putting Dublin on the international architecture map and freeing us from the shackles of Buck Mulligan even if they are some journeyed washed up hack like Kevin Myers. This is ALL ABOUT THE MONEY .
Sean Dunne paid 54million per acre, 275 million for Jurys and 100+ for the Berkley topping out around 370million, so even if he had 20million cash, they rest came in the form of a loan, last time I checked loans had interest attached, so say 350 million in a loan, at 5% since 2005 , he is now in hock for closer to 385 million, then factor in the 1billion building costs, so we are looking at close on 1.4 billion project costs, Celtic Tiger or not that’s a lot of apples. His own project manager has more or less come out and stated this , the building needs to be 37 storey with inordinately high density for the developer to see a return on the ridiculous price paid for the land. Its Paddy and Patricia publics fault he owes so much cos we made him pay so much. I heard her talking on the news last week and she almost made me feel so bad about it I was going to have a whip around and start a special Sean Dunne STD fund, Save The Developer.
Course at this point its not really his problem, it becomes his financier’s problem, they have now become as keen to get this pushed through as the developer himself , I wonder which Irish bank is sweating over this. Then you have to consider some other planning applications either in the process or already refused by uber-developers and Irish business magnates in the Ballsbridge area who looked to demolish or significantly extend properties they purchased for exhorbitant prices. Even a multi-millionaire feels the pinch some times. So Im sure the machinations of Irish cronyism will come into play, probably not in the public eye, I predict the Backik tribunal in 2014 will reveal all.
So while Archiseek Ireland is obfused by the smoke screen that is the visual of this development and we all have a warm cosy feeling becasue we talk about the glass, angles, facades and some plonker even spoke of it in terms of vital,exciting living architecture, its got sweet f.a to do with that, its about 1.4 billion in wants to get 1.4 billion plus out ! ...
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby wearnicehats » Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:53 am

[quote="mickletterfrack"]If we are to debate this then what we require is at least some honesty about the real matter at stake. Don’]

of course there's money involved. no-one is stupid enough to ignore that. Neither is Sean Dunne stupid enough to know that he still makes money if the tower gets chopped in half. He had a competition, got a good and renowned architect and he's put it up to the planners. Let's see what happens

BTW anyone who wants to experience the positive and constructive nature of mickletterfeck's contributions to this site should visit this thread

http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=4439

thank the lord ODT didn't get get the job
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby JoePublic » Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:05 am

mickletterfrack wrote:If we are to debate this then what we require is at least some honesty about the real matter at stake. Don’t be fooled by those who take the high moral design ground supporting this development, speaking of its being a signature 21st century project putting Dublin on the international architecture map and freeing us from the shackles of Buck Mulligan even if they are some journeyed washed up hack like Kevin Myers. This is ALL ABOUT THE MONEY .
Sean Dunne paid 54million per acre, 275 million for Jurys and 100+ for the Berkley topping out around 370million, so even if he had 20million cash, they rest came in the form of a loan, last time I checked loans had interest attached, so say 350 million in a loan, at 5% since 2005 , he is now in hock for closer to 385 million, then factor in the 1billion building costs, so we are looking at close on 1.4 billion project costs, Celtic Tiger or not that’s a lot of apples. His own project manager has more or less come out and stated this , the building needs to be 37 storey with inordinately high density for the developer to see a return on the ridiculous price paid for the land. Its Paddy and Patricia publics fault he owes so much cos we made him pay so much. I heard her talking on the news last week and she almost made me feel so bad about it I was going to have a whip around and start a special Sean Dunne STD fund, Save The Developer.
Course at this point its not really his problem, it becomes his financier’s problem, they have now become as keen to get this pushed through as the developer himself , I wonder which Irish bank is sweating over this. Then you have to consider some other planning applications either in the process or already refused by uber-developers and Irish business magnates in the Ballsbridge area who looked to demolish or significantly extend properties they purchased for exhorbitant prices. Even a multi-millionaire feels the pinch some times. So Im sure the machinations of Irish cronyism will come into play, probably not in the public eye, I predict the Backik tribunal in 2014 will reveal all.
So while Archiseek Ireland is obfused by the smoke screen that is the visual of this development and we all have a warm cosy feeling becasue we talk about the glass, angles, facades and some plonker even spoke of it in terms of vital,exciting living architecture, its got sweet f.a to do with that, its about 1.4 billion in wants to get 1.4 billion plus out ! ...


I don't see how Sean Dunne's finances are at all relevant. The scheme should be judged on its merits alone, and how it fits in with whether or not we want a high density future for Dublin.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby mickletterfrack » Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:44 am

Your gullibility/stupidity is insulting to the JoePublic moniker you have adopted,
JoePublic wrote:I don't see how Sean Dunne's finances are at all relevant. The scheme should be judged on its merits alone, and how it fits in with whether or not we want a high density future for Dublin.
thats the whole friggin point, the whole base premise for the developemnt is not about merit of design or future of Dublin its about the money and Sean Dunnes finances are the biggest single driving force that are dictating the restructuring of the area and the whole Irish architectural landscape as has been the case with the bulk of Irelands CT architectural developments, its never been about bettering JoePublics lifestyle its been about the money.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby JoePublic » Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:13 am

mickletterfrack wrote:Your gullibility/stupidity is insulting to the JoePublic moniker you have adopted, thats the whole friggin point, the whole base premise for the developemnt is not about merit of design or future of Dublin its about the money and Sean Dunnes finances are the biggest single driving force that are dictating the restructuring of the area and the whole Irish architectural landscape as has been the case with the bulk of Irelands CT architectural developments, its never been about bettering JoePublics lifestyle its been about the money.


*yawn
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby kefu » Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:26 am

Before people start talkin' about those commuting from two hours away, this proposal will have absolutely zero impact on this. It's not unrealistic that starting prices here will be beginning (and this is conservative) at around E800,000. More likely in fact is that every single apartment in this complex will cost more than E1 million. It seems likely that many of these will be bought up by investors or for the very wealthy as a second home. None of the people commuting from Portlaoise, Virginia, Gorey or whereever are going to be moving into this scheme.
One Berkeley Court is a development for the very rich, as befits its locations in Dublin 4.
So for anybody making this argument, give me a break.
Let the project stand on its architectural merits and that alone.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby jdivision » Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:50 am

mickletterfrack wrote:the whole base premise for the developemnt is not about merit of design or future of Dublin its about the money and Sean Dunnes finances are the biggest single driving force that are dictating the restructuring of the area and the whole Irish architectural landscape as has been the case with the bulk of Irelands CT architectural developments, its never been about bettering JoePublics lifestyle its been about the money.

And there was I thinking developers developed for nothing. Of course it's about money. Along the way it helps if it improves on what's there, ie, a bunch of drab horrible buildings that are past their sell by date. That's what this debate is about. The issue of Dunne making a profit is so obvious it doesn't need to be mentioned, it's what all developers do. The issue of high rise for Ballsbridge is not a hard one. There is no village centre, it's walking distance from the city centre and close to major public transport links. In short it's probably the best location in Dublin for high rise along with the docklands. This thing of oh it's unsuitable for Ballsbridge when there's relatively tall buildings in the area - dating from the 1970s in the main, when there was much lower densities than are presently allowed - is nonsensical.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby notjim » Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:55 am

don't be silly kefu, no one should suggest the people buying here would otherwise be commuting from Clondalkin but people buying here would otherwise be buying somewhere else, putting there homes in a tower means that they will be buying in a denser development, making the city denser and resulting in less extreme commuting.

************ is longer than

*
*
*
********* even if it isn't the three right most star that I put in the vertical stack.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby kefu » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:32 pm

Not what I was saying. I said judge this on its architectural merits, and nothing else.
The fact that the social housing is being kept off site shows how much interest there is within Mountbrook Homes in creating some sort of an urban paradise. This project is for extremely wealthy people, plain and simple. One high-rise building - filled with one hundred millionaires - is not going to doing anything to reverse urban sprawl or any other social problem in Dublin.
And Notjim, do you really believe that the people moving into this building are going to be first-time buyers or owners of a single property. Why would 1 Berkeley Court be like this, when no high-end development in the country is.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby massamann » Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:03 pm

I have a confession to make.

Its something that has been eating up inside of me for years and now - due to MickLetterfracks nuanced debating - I have to admit it: I too go to work mainly for the money. Yeah, sure, I get a sense of achievement of out some of the things that I do, and I enjoy the company of my work colleagues, but I'm guessing Sean Dunne does too. In fact, given that Sean Dunne is far richer than I am, and as he could probably retire tomorrow if he wanted too, it's probably less about the money for him than it is for me. Damn.

Up to now, I hadn't realised that working to earn money was wrong. And it leaves me in a bit of a quandry: If I shouldn't work for money, and my hobbies are now to become my job, then how do I afford to put food on the table? Or should I just suffer for my art?

Then again, why does it matter if Sean Dunne makes a profit as long as the design succeeds? Is this not the main question? Personally, I'd prefer if a design conscious developer made money, so that they can afford to take their design conscious ass and develop another site.

Or am I missing something here? :confused:
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby alonso » Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:04 pm

mick thanks for the lesson. We had thought Mountbrook was an arm of Respond until you came along. Whatever about the social make up of this place, having wealthy people living in towers is better than having them in outer suburban sprawl. And if this scheme is successful we can finally throw off the shackles of high rise in Ireland whereby every ignorant buffoon, when confronted with anything over 6 storeys retorts "not another Ballymun".
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby Rory W » Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:41 pm

alonso wrote:mick thanks for the lesson. We had thought Mountbrook was an arm of Respond until you came along. Whatever about the social make up of this place, having wealthy people living in towers is better than having them in outer suburban sprawl. And if this scheme is successful we can finally throw off the shackles of high rise in Ireland whereby every ignorant buffoon, when confronted with anything over 6 storeys retorts "not another Ballymun".


Spot on Alonso - as someone who was 2 hours late for work this morning due to train failure on the (grim up) northern line I'd sooner see this sort of development act as a catylist for decent high rise in the CC so that it (a) civilises high rise living and the city centre as a place for families (b) develops sufficent density for a proper metro and (c) stops the constant sprawl of dross which is destroying this country
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby mickletterfrack » Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:31 pm

massamann wrote:Then again, why does it matter if Sean Dunne makes a profit as long as the design succeeds? Is this not the main question? Personally, I'd prefer if a design conscious developer made money, so that they can afford to take their design conscious ass and develop another site. Or am I missing something here? :confused:

Yeah you are missing alot here in fact, this has nothing todo with a design conscious developer, it has everything todo with a greedy developer whos ego and vanity got the better of him and so he paid an over the market price and now has to make his money back. The design is the money.

massamann wrote:In fact, given that Sean Dunne is far richer than I am, and as he could probably retire tomorrow if he wanted too, it's probably less about the money for him than it is for me. Damn.
In fact your missing the point here again, ECB interest rates have risen from 2% to nearer 5% in the couple of years since SD bought this property so he in fact needs this money far more than you think

alonso wrote:In And if this scheme is successful we can finally throw off the shackles of high rise in Ireland whereby every ignorant buffoon, when confronted with anything over 6 storeys retorts "not another Ballymun".
probably the same ignorant buffoons who said Ballymum would never work in the first place, how wrong history has proven them. ... plonker


Rory W wrote:Spot on Alonso - as someone who was 2 hours late for work this morning due to train failure on the (grim up) northern line I'd sooner see this sort of development act as a catylist for decent high rise in the CC so that it (a) civilises high rise living and the city centre as a place for families (b) develops sufficent density for a proper metro and (c) stops the constant sprawl of dross which is destroying this country

my heart bleeds for you, took me ten mins door to desk and that was stopping for a cup of tea on the way. If I were you Id write a strongly worded letter to my local design conscious developer.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby massamann » Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:48 pm

Mick, you may be 10 minutes door-to-desk but I've got to say my friend, you don't sound happy. Maybe you should move closer to work - if you can get down to under a 2 minute commute it might vastly improve your quality of life. I get the feeling that the time spent in the car is bringing you down...

Surely "what" Sean Dunne wants to build is the architectural and aesthetic question that we should be dealing with here. "Why" he wants to build it is the question that you seem to be asking - maybe you should try AskAboutMoney.com?
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby notjim » Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:50 pm

kefu wrote:And Notjim, do you really believe that the people moving into this building are going to be first-time buyers or owners of a single property. Why would 1 Berkeley Court be like this, when no high-end development in the country is.


No, of course I don't, but I do believe they would be buying property elsewhere if they weren't buying it in One Berkley court. I don't get your point: any single instance of high density is not going to solve the density problem, of course, but building high density developments will.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby Rory W » Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:17 pm

mickletterfrack wrote: my heart bleeds for you, took me ten mins door to desk and that was stopping for a cup of tea on the way. If I were you Id write a strongly worded letter to my local design conscious developer.

woop de fucking doo - isn't it great to be able to live close to where you work rather than having to rely on Irish Fail because planning in this country is seriously fucked up. High end high rise will prove that this form of development can work (unlike Ballymun - Hardly Central Park West was it) and then people will see that you can have good high rise and the effect will trickle down to other (affordable)developments - then we all may be able to live a bit closer to the city and where we work, have a decent quality of life and enable the densities necessary for a decent public transport system

But perhaps you could change your name to "I'mAlrightJackLetterfrack" since that seems to be your attitude
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby jdivision » Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:43 pm

mickletterfrack wrote:Yeah you are missing alot here in fact, this has nothing todo with a design conscious developer, it has everything todo with a greedy developer whos ego and vanity got the better of him and so he paid an over the market price and now has to make his money back.

Eh land prices in Ballsbridge have pretty much doubled since he bought it. So actually he got a fairly good deal.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby notjim » Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:35 pm

lets stop feeding the troll!
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby wearnicehats » Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:31 pm

Don’t forget that prior to the sale of Jurys Ballsbridge Sean Dunne was Jurys’ largest single shareholder at nearly 19% of the company. Seeing as how the papers this weekend put the sale of the chain at between €750 and €950million, Mr. Dunne will have made a few quid back.

Also, he says in his letter that he only took control of the hotel in September this year. Many deals where a company needs “money” are structured in such a way that very little “money” changes hands. You might find that big interest payments only kicked in recently

And, as Matt cooper said in May 2006, “One wonders what Ahern, Cowen and other ministers make of their friend's ambitious plans to reshape the landscape of Dublin 4. Will they support, object or affect neutrality, as if this is merely a commercial matter of no real interest to politicians? Will friendship with Dunne influence their thinking? Eventually, of course, it will come down to the planners, and what they think is in the best interests of the development of the city. And we can have every confidence that they'll make the right decisions, oblivious to all factors of wealth, influence and begrudgery. Can't we?”

So his position might not be as shaky as people think.

But, as our mad friend who has just made the 10 minute trip from his desk to his padded cell alluded to, Dunne’s just committed himself to a minimum of 1 year in the planning process and another 4 on site. That’s still, financially, a bit tasty.

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons - what if the “it’ll never get built” crowd are right, but for none of the above.

What if Sean Dunne has no intention of building anything. What if he’s got the high of the deal, the competition, the spotlight. What if he’s using the site as collateral to finance other deals. What if, in 18 months time, he simply sells the site. Even if he gets €70million per acre (not unreasonable) he’ll turn a tidy profit. And if his planning is refused he can leave head held high. If it is granted, he’ll get even more cash for the site.

What if……
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby hutton » Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:28 am

wearnicehats wrote:And, as Matt cooper said in May 2006, “] And we can have every confidence that they'll make the right decisions, oblivious to all factors of wealth, influence and begrudgery. Can't we?”

So his position might not be as shaky as people think.[/B]


I think youve said enough there for me that sums up contemporary Ireland very nicely :)
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby GregF » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:35 am

Even the perpetually cranky Kevin Myers is in favour of it. Just read his article in the Indo.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby mickletterfrack » Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:07 pm

wearnicehats wrote:Even if he gets €70million per acre (not unreasonable) he’ll turn a tidy profit. And if his planning is refused he can leave head held high. If it is granted, he’ll get even more cash for the site.
you really are in lala land if you think he would get 70million an acre now, not to mind the 54 he paid for it.

wearnicehats wrote:And, as Matt cooper said in May 2006, “One wonders what Ahern, Cowen and other ministers make of their friend's ambitious plans to reshape the landscape of Dublin 4. Will they support, object or affect neutrality, as if this is merely a commercial matter of no real interest to politicians? Will friendship with Dunne influence their thinking?


I think we already know what Bertie will do for his buddy SD after all wasnt he one of Berties invited guests in Westminister to celebrate Berties own day as guest of honour of the British houses of parliament in recognition of Berties role in the Good Friday agreement... oops forgot to invite Albert Reynolds but heh at least Sean Dunne got a front row seat...Maybe he is eyeing Westminister up for a 37 storey tower.
http://www.shane-ross.ie/archives/221

Matt Cooper is scraping the bottom of the barrell these days, he is so worried about not getting invited to the best parites he will say anything.


notjim wrote: lets stop feeding the troll!


Speaking of feeding , I think your best surmised by something Marco Pierre White said on Hells Kitchen the other night… You can put a tux on a pig but you can’t stop him from grunting… you and a few others knocking around this site need to get their heads out of the trough. Whatever about the financies of SD which are the main dictates of this design its an un-inspiring blob really with no artistic or original merit.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby henno » Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:46 pm

Perhaps you would like to critique the proposal for us mick????
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby Jem Von Tirpitz » Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:50 pm

GregF wrote:Even the perpetually cranky Kevin Myers is in favour of it. Just read his article in the Indo.


Yeah but in the same article he recommends that the IRFU and FAI abandon the whole Lansdowne Road project and go begging to the GAA for the privilege of paying them a million euro (at least) every time they want to play a home match. The man is a gobsh*te.
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