Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Devin » Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:13 pm

GrahamH wrote:The remnants of a corner chimneystack where an early Georgian house once stood.

Image
The building in that gap was demolished about 5 or 6 years ago.


Image




Edit: some more pictures showing it in context:


Image

Image

The building (25 Thomas Street) is on the extreme right. The area to the rear of these buildings is like the proverbial knacker's yard, and has been for, well, in the years I've seen it anyway. Used to be used to park / service the 'Paddywagon' tour buses, which may have been connected to the backpacker hostel (the yellow building) on Thomas Street. You can't help feel that, in another country, an area like this to the rear of a hostel would be nicely landscaped as a chill out area for the young backpackers.




Image

Rear of 25 Thos. St. before demolition.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby hutton » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:33 am

Gunter's Joseph Fade gets a mention in today's Irish Times - but no mention of Frawleys :(


Fading memory of merchant banker


Madam, – In response to Frank McNally’s query about how Dublin’s Fade Street got its name ( An Irishman’s Diary, February 27th) the answer is that it commemorates a short-lived dynasty of Quaker merchant bankers in the early 18th century.

The best known was the last, Joseph Francis Fade. He also built Furry Park House, which still stands, though its unique courtyard – laid out as a large-scale sundial – was demolished to make way for a private housing development in the 1980s.

Fade finally fell on hard times and had to sign over his many properties, his gold, stables, plate and even bedding to his creditors, being left in possession only of his clothes.

No doubt some contemporary merchant bankers hope they are dealt with more kindly by fate and that their names fade from the public consciousness rather faster than that of Joseph Francis. I will resist the temptation of suggesting locations in the city where we could commemorate their contribution to Irish society. – Yours, etc,

PADRAIG YEATES,

Howth,

Co Dublin.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:16 am

Good letter. Fills out Fade a little more, though one could hardly describe the dynasty as short-lived?

Great pictures of No. 25 Thomas Street, Devin, thanks. The last one there bears all the hallmarks of an early/mid-18th century house, with a small return, segmental top windows and early 19th century sashes :(.

Devin wrote:Image


It's curious the return projected on the opposite side to the shared chimneystack. Indeed by the looks of things, it appears there was a return on the right-hand side too at some stage!
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:29 am

That's interesting hutton.

I'm getting a twitch on my right side about this stretch of Thomas Street, I fear evil doings are a foot behind the scenes.

The Brewery Hostel (the old Dublin Corporation library) has closed in the last few weeks, McGruders looks closed and there are sheets of plywood behind some of the upstairs windows. The front windows on the first floor of nos. 20 and 21 have been left wide open for months now. The giant Budelias, that must be putting a huge strain on the brickwork of the facades, are going to be putting on their spring growth around now and there's already an angry looking crack in the front wall of no. 19 (Protected Structure).

Since the odd demise (just letting the time run out on the planning application) of the daft, megalomaniacal, Manor Park Homes plans for this side of the 'Digital Hub' it's all gone quiet . . . too quiet!
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:14 pm

Perhaps the Buddleia should be protected as a later addition to these Protected Structures? It does after all contribute to the special character of these buildings.

There's good progress at the opposite end of Thomas Street, at Cornmarket. The hapless fragment of city wall at the entrance to Lamb Alley is being given a new status and sense of gravitas through the laying of striking limestone paving along the line of where the rest of the wall once stood.

Image

Simple but clever.

Image

A similar concept was proposed as part of the equally hapless Ship Street/Werburgh Street Framework Plan, to demarcate both the River Poddle as well as the former line of the city wall.

It would be great if the above paving continued right across the road to fully express the concept, provided it wouldn't be misconstrued as a pedestrian crossing. We wouldn't want anyone moving about with carefree abandon in the environs of High Street. They might just cross the road.

A crisp pile of limestone going a-begging of a Wednesday evening...

Image

A shame a bit of fearsome Calp couldn't be employed, to quote johnglas, but I don't think anyone makes it these days.

The determination of road engineers to run a filter road smash bang wallop through the only current potential civic space in the entire Liberties, across the road at Cornmarket, is a rant for another day. The fact that it mitigates against the beautiful new golden paving and furnishings, against practically every report recommendation ever published on the regneeration of the Liberties, and against any modicum of a civic sensibility, puts us neatly back where we started: High Street of the 1970s.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby johnglas » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:54 pm

Good to see this; far more needs done to bring out the ghostly 'footprints' of a past era. Thanks for the mention, GrahamH, about the 'fearsome' nature of calp (referring, of course, to its texture and its 'muddy' look).
As far as road engineers are concerned, I have long believed that they should all be locked in a dark room and brought out into the light only when absolutely necessary and under strict supervision and only after every other design input has been accommodated.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GregF » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:35 am

johnglas wrote:As far as road engineers are concerned, I have long believed that they should all be locked in a dark room and brought out into the light only when absolutely necessary and under strict supervision and only after every other design input has been accommodated.



ha ha ....Yep, definitely, they should be all treated to a holiday in Guantanmo Bay for the damage thay have done to Dublin city centre over the years, particularly the old medieval quarter such as Cornmarket and High Street in question here.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GregF » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:56 pm

I contacted Dublin City Council about the appalling state of these streets and this is part of the reply from Anne Graham....


Some of the recent initiatives that Dublin City Council have taken to try to encourage rejuvenation in the area.

a) Identifying the Liberties Coombe Area for the 1998 Urban Renewal Scheme which offered tax incentives for the redevelopment of identified sites.

b) Identifying a number of properties on Thomas Street to avail of tax incentives under the Living Over the Shop Scheme.

c) Preparing a local area plan for the Liberties Area which is centered on Thomas Street and James' Street which is expected to be adopted by the City Council in May this year.

d) Preparing an Architectural Conservation Area Scheme for the Thomas Street area which will give added protection to the historic buildings on the street.

e) Working with NCAD on the redevelopment of the old fire station in Thomas Street as new facilities for the College.

f) Preparing an environmental improvement scheme for Thomas Street and James' Street elements of which we hope to get included in the proposed Quality Bus Corridor Enhancement Scheme for the street.

g) Working closely with the Digital Hub to deliver their objectives for the creation of a vibrant digital enterprise centre on Thomas Street.

This gives some indication of the work that the City Council has done and continues to do in this important area of the City.

As the economic conditions in the city disimprove it will make achieving our objectives more challenging but will not reduce the resolve of the City to work towards these goals.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby aj » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:06 pm

GregF wrote:I contacted Dublin City Council about the appalling state of these streets and this is part of the reply from Anne Graham....


Some of the recent initiatives that Dublin City Council have taken to try to encourage rejuvenation in the area.

a) Identifying the Liberties Coombe Area for the 1998 Urban Renewal Scheme which offered tax incentives for the redevelopment of identified sites.

b) Identifying a number of properties on Thomas Street to avail of tax incentives under the Living Over the Shop Scheme.

c) Preparing a local area plan for the Liberties Area which is centered on Thomas Street and James' Street which is expected to be adopted by the City Council in May this year.

d) Preparing an Architectural Conservation Area Scheme for the Thomas Street area which will give added protection to the historic buildings on the street.

e) Working with NCAD on the redevelopment of the old fire station in Thomas Street as new facilities for the College.

f) Preparing an environmental improvement scheme for Thomas Street and James' Street elements of which we hope to get included in the proposed Quality Bus Corridor Enhancement Scheme for the street.

g) Working closely with the Digital Hub to deliver their objectives for the creation of a vibrant digital enterprise centre on Thomas Street.

This gives some indication of the work that the City Council has done and continues to do in this important area of the City.

As the economic conditions in the city disimprove it will make achieving our objectives more challenging but will not reduce the resolve of the City to work towards these goals.




should you laugh or cry at this??????
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby missarchi » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:37 am

an interconnector with 2 exits is to hard to imagine and too expensive to manage...
this would well and truly sort out this area
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:29 am

GregF wrote:I contacted Dublin City Council about the appalling state of these streets and this is part of the reply from Anne Graham....


Some of the recent initiatives that Dublin City Council have taken to try to encourage rejuvenation in the area.

a) - g)



I don't think that's the full list Greg, was there not a second page?

. . . . maybe this is it:

[INDENT]h) We've worked closely with the developer to erect a steel frame where the 'Protected Structure' used to stand at no. 112 Thomas Street.

i) To assist the visually impaired, we've relaxed all our building control proceedures so that double size illuminated signs can be atached to all the shops.

j) As an inovative eco-urban initiative, we've facilitated the cultivation of Budelia plants on the facades of many of the remaining 18th century brick houses.

k) To facilitate the comprehensive urban renewal of the Digital Hub area, we're not going to apply any restrictive designations like 'Protected Structure' status to surviving early 18th century gabled houses at nos. 20 & 21 Thomas Street.

l) We've worked closely with Danninger Developments to ensure the demolition and redevelopment of Joseph Fade's surviving 18th century banking house at no. 36 Thomas Street.

m) Again in conjunction with Danninger Ltd. we've granted planning permission for the demolition of old 18th century houses at 32 and 33 Thomas Street that are in the way of the welcome develpment of office block on this and the remainder of Frawleys site.

n) We've imposed very striuct archaeological conditions on new developments, so that the heritage of this ancient street can be properly protected.
[/INDENT]


That is a more comprehensive list right enough, but I think there may still be a third page! I'll have to go looking for it.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby aj » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:35 am

gunter wrote:I don't think that's the full list Greg, was there not a second page?

. . . . maybe this is it:

[INDENT]h) We've worked closely with the developer to erect a steel frame where the 'Protected Structure' used to stand at no. 112 Thomas Street.

i) To assist the visually impaired, we've relaxed all our building control proceedures so that double size illuminated signs can be atached to all the shops.

j) As an inovative eco-urban initiative, we've facilitated the cultivation of Budelia plants on the facades of many of the remaining 18th century brick houses.

k) To facilitate the comprehensive urban renewal of the Digital Hub area, we're not going to apply any restrictive designations like 'Protected Structure' status to surviving early 18th century gabled houses at nos. 20 & 21 Thomas Street.

l) We've worked closely with Danninger Developments to ensure the demolition and redevelopment of Joseph Fade's surviving 18th century banking house at no. 36 Thomas Street.

m) Again in conjunction with Danninger Ltd. we've granted planning permission for the demolition of old 18th century houses at 32 and 33 Thomas Street that are in the way of the welcome develpment of office block on this and the remainder of Frawleys site.

n) We've imposed very striuct archaeological conditions on new developments, so that the heritage of this ancient street can be properly protected.
[/INDENT]


That is a more comprehensive list right enough, but I think there may still be a third page! I'll have to go looking for it.



excellent
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:01 pm

;)

Just a reminder that the Frawley's decision is due tomorrow. With any luck it will not be deferred.

Other bits n bobs on Thomas Street. The exposed gable wall of The Clock pub has been freshly coated in what appears to be a breathable lime render, on foot of the demolition of the protected Georgian building which stood on the adjacent site up to a couple of months ago. Looks like it may be like this for the long haul...

Image


Remarkably, an application has also been lodged for the demolition of the Georgian-type building right next door to SS. Augustine and John! (no pic at present). Although its coating in a lurid layer of purple paint, atop an equally unattractive layer of render, does the building no favours, it forms part of the critcal setting of the adjacent church and the wider historic ensemble of Thomas Street. Oddly, there are no details online other than an archaeologist's report (deep breath gunter) outlining the procedures to be followed 'should the application be granted permission'. Significantly of course, the hospital and church of St. John the Baptist covered all of this general area on the north side of the street.

Meanwhile, the corner building at No. 29 next door to St. Catherine's Church is in something of a state of undress, exposing a huge Victorian timber beam above its shopfront.

Image


When also supporting floor joists, this is not something you want getting wet.

Image


You can also see inside one of the poor 1830s houses next to Crane Lane at the moment.

hutton wrote:Image




Image


And down at No. 81, works on this Regency-era building finally appear to have resumed, after months, if not over a year, of little movement. Alas it seems large parts of the second and third floor facade require reconstruction.

Image



Image

This building has one of the finest domestic merchant interiors on Thomas Street, with marvellously chunky plasterwork at first floor level.

Finally, a nasty recent addition to one of the last surviving Victorian shopfronts in the entire area. Oh dear.

Image

(and yes, the building is otherwise a complete rebuild). The foliate detailing is also sadly lost with that paint scheme.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:09 pm

GrahamH wrote:Just a reminder that the Frawley's decision is due tomorrow. With any luck it will not be deferred.


Phoned them last week, they said that the inspector's report had been completed, but, surprise, surprise, there's a backlog waiting to go before the Bord, couldn't say if we're talking weeks or months!

GrahamH wrote:Re another proposed demolition up Thomas St. . . . . oddly, there are no details online other than an archaeologist's report (deep breath gunter) outlining the procedures to be followed 'should the application be granted permission'.


Have a read of the archaeologist's report on this one (Reg. no. 2474/09) for an interesting looking extension to the house on the corner of James Street and Steeven's Lane.

Image

Image

As background, it refers to the large adjoining site to the east that was redeveloped a couple of years ago (shown in the background of the model). Basically what it states is that when the archaeologists showed up to carry out their on-site investigation, to satisfy the planning conditions, they found that the whole site had already been dug out by JCB! . . . and this was the site, behind the fountain, where Petrie depicted fine 'Billys' and former 'Billys' in the 19th century :mad:

Not that they'd have probably bothered recording the basements or foundation plans anyway.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:25 pm

:rolleyes:

What a shame. One would wonder how much of this took place in the city, and indeed nationally, over the frenzied boom period. It must have been hectic for archaeology (another sector walloped of late by the downturn).

That extension by Architecture Republic does look very interesting (though eh, have we seen it a few places before by any chance...?). But its mushing in behind the protected house does neither the latter or itself any favours.

The typical merchant-over-the-shop building proposed for demolition at No. 88 Thomas Street is this sturdy number at the corner of John Street.

Image

Need it even be said that the removal of render and/or the installation of appropriate sash windows and a decent shopfront would transform the building beyong recognition. On a host of levels this should be thrown out.

A charming classical doorcase to the side.

Image


There is of course much potential for redevelopment of the extensive backlands area. This would greatly enliven pleasant John Street, which features some of the best surviving granite paving in the city.

Image
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:49 pm

Had a look at that today too!

Image Image

Ok, there's no excuse for purple paint, but the real irony with proposing the demolition of no. 88 Thomas street, it that for a generation it stood in isolation while the adjoining property at 87 was a gapping hole criss-crossed by decaying timber struts.

From what I recall, it was Dublin City Council that eventually acquired no. 87 and sold it by tender (five or six years ago) specifically as an 'in-fill' opportunity to mend the streetscape between the pub at no. 86 and this surviviving 19th century corner at no. 88

Incidentally I'm nearly sure that no. 88 had an interesting corner entrance and behind that cheap timber cladding there should still be a nice square granite column (possibly leaning slightly out).
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:43 am

Confirmation that An Bord Pleanála have put back the Frawleys decision by eighteen weeks! 'due to a backlog of appeals at Board level'.

D-Day for Thomas Street is now 6th June ;)

On 'The Buzz Shop' at no. 118 Thomas St., originally posted by Graham, Peter Pearson has a good shot of the original shopfront (retained behind all the paint and perspex) in his 'The Heart of Dublin'.

ImageImage
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GregF » Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:15 pm

gunter wrote:Confirmation that An Bord Pleanála have put back the Frawleys decision by eighteen weeks! 'due to a backlog of appeals at Board level'.

D-Day for Thomas Street is now 6th June ;)

On 'The Buzz Shop' at no. 118 Thomas St., originally posted by Graham, Peter Pearson has a good shot of the original shopfront (retained behind all the paint and perspex) in his 'The Heart of Dublin'.

ImageImage




I remember when this old building stood. It went on fire (or was set alight) a good few years ago and was rebuilt in it's current form, minus the fine ornate brickwork around the upper windows. Another sad loss for Thomas Street.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Devin » Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:42 pm

Image

Here it is during demolition in 1999.




Image

And just after reconstruction in mock Victorian brick in 2000, the same brick used on some of the Group 91 buildings in Temple Bar. Ok, it's an accurate copy of the original facade but no substitute for the beauty of the old brick. The listed shopfront was not protected properly during demolition and the cornice got damaged. No matter, because the whole thing was subsequently knocked off to overlay a new box fascia.

Those nice timber Victorian doors with the diagonal tongue & groove panelling and chamfered frames were junked and white PVC put in. There's a similar shopfront on a Georgian building on Wellington Quay which still has the old doors that this one had (one of the buildings which will become part of the new Clarence Hotel).




EDIT - The Wellington Quay shopfront, in dreadful condition. We trust U2 will do the right thing with the shopfront, if not the building ..

Image
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby lostexpectation » Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:38 am

Mentioned here ages ago, got permission

Planning permission secured for hotel
http://www.dublinpeople.com/content/view/1831/57/


Welcome to the 'no-star' hotel
'Cell-like' rooms will be aimed at gig fans
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/welcome-to-the-nostar-hotel-1714313.html
IMPRESARIO property developer Harry Crosbie has got the green light for Dublin's first 'rocker' hotel at the rear of his Vicar Street entertainment venue.

With 194 bedrooms, it will be classified as a 'no-star' hotel and offer very basic accommodation.

The hotel, which will be built off Thomas Street in Dublin 8, to the rear of the Vicar Street venue, is aimed at people staying in the city overnight to attend events in Vicar Street


On arrival a freight lift will bring patrons to the residents' bar and check-in area in a "big glass box" on the seventh floor on top of the hotel, which will look out over the city.

Designed by Grafton Architects, the rooms will feature polished concrete walls which will be "a homage" to famous designers Corbusier and Eileen Gray, said the spokesman.

Mr Crosbie has not decided when he will proceed with the development but a spokesman said that it is hoped to begin negotiations firstly with possible Irish or international hotel operators.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:58 pm

Glad to see this got the go-ahead. The public domain improvements associated with the project make it worthy alone, let alone the quality of the design by Grafton. The residents naturally had very valid concerns, living within an outstretched arm's-reach of the place - hopefully these have been resolved.

Great archival material there Devin, thanks. Always good to get a context on proceedings. Desperate about the fascia being wrecked after the effort of retention.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby lostexpectation » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:28 am

lostexpectation wrote:Mentioned here ages ago, got permission

Planning permission secured for hotel
http://www.dublinpeople.com/content/view/1831/57/


Welcome to the 'no-star' hotel
'Cell-like' rooms will be aimed at gig fans
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/welcome-to-the-nostar-hotel-1714313.html
IMPRESARIO property developer Harry Crosbie has got the green light for Dublin's first 'rocker' hotel at the rear of his Vicar Street entertainment venue.

With 194 bedrooms, it will be classified as a 'no-star' hotel and offer very basic accommodation.

The hotel, which will be built off Thomas Street in Dublin 8, to the rear of the Vicar Street venue, is aimed at people staying in the city overnight to attend events in Vicar Street


On arrival a freight lift will bring patrons to the residents' bar and check-in area in a "big glass box" on the seventh floor on top of the hotel, which will look out over the city.

Designed by Grafton Architects, the rooms will feature polished concrete walls which will be "a homage" to famous designers Corbusier and Eileen Gray, said the spokesman.

Mr Crosbie has not decided when he will proceed with the development but a spokesman said that it is hoped to begin negotiations firstly with possible Irish or international hotel operators.


anybody find a pic?
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The Planning Authority is concerned!!

Postby Smithfield Resi » Tue May 05, 2009 11:09 pm

2483/09 - 88 Thomas st

1. The Planning Authority is concerned about the proposed demolition of the existing Late Georgian building fronting onto Thomas Street and John Street. It is considered that this building although not protected is of streetscape value. The applicant shall submit a full architectural appraisal of this building and justification for its demolition. In this regard the applicant shall have regard to Policy H27 of the Dublin City Development Plan 2005-2011 which ‘seeks the retention, re-use and refurbishment, using appropriate materials and techniques, of older buildings of architectural, cultural, historic and aesthetic merit which, though not protected structures, make a positive contribution to the character, appearance and quality of local streetscapes and the sustainable development of the city.

Gone for Further Information though, I think an outright refusal would have been more approporiate given the new ACA status of Thomas street.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GregF » Fri May 08, 2009 1:32 pm

And here's another old building just left to die.

Such appalling neglect...hard to believe there was a boom at all.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby ac1976 » Fri May 08, 2009 1:42 pm

GregF wrote:And here's another old building just left to die.

Such appalling neglect...hard to believe there was a boom at all.



This is appallling, such a fine building.
I cant help notice the sex shop attached to it and wonder if this might be part of the problem here. there is also a homeless center opposite it...
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