Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:46 pm

I just realized GP, that was you having a go at me on the other thread.

Fair enough!

In responce 71gray's post a couple of weeks back on the proposed demolition of Frawleys, I haven't had a chance to look closely at the application, but I took a closer look at the existing buildings just to be sure of what were're talking about here.

The site extends from no. 32 in the west to no. 36 in the east and all existing structures are intended to be demolished.

There can be little doubt that no. 32, recently a Chinese shop and previously 'Fitzgeralds', is a Georgian altered former twin 'Dutch Billy' in reasonably intact condition. Twin 'Billys' on standard width terrace plots appear to have been unique to Dublin and, includind this one, only five example remain, to my knowledge.

No. 33 is a very decent early Georgian sharing a unusual roof profile with the threatened three storey on James's Street opposite the Fountain, pictured earlier in this thread.

Nos. 34 - 35 is the 1930s Art Deco wing of Frawleys with the unique 'island' shop window and quality tiling refered to by Devin.

No. 36 is the early 18th century, 5 bay, mansion house of the Quaker banker Fade, which although altered in the 30s with the removal of the original pitched roof, retains it's front and back elevations with little alteration (except at street level) and probably a substantial portion of it's main internal fabric.

The rear elevation of Fade's house is even more indicative of it's high status than the front, with the scale of the original central stairwell implied by the arrangement of the windows.

Notwithstanding the role of these structures in the streetscape, on their individual merits alone, these structures demand to be retained and conserved. Demolition should be completely out of the question here.

Image
The rear of no. 32 showing the twin roofs and standard return that can only belong to a former twin 'Billy'.

Image
The rear of Frawley's.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:59 pm

As always, acutely observed gunter.

Thanks for the pictures (taken from 'that' location ;)). I've been dying to get up there for ages to have a look at this lot; jumping to clear the boundary walls never quites cuts it (and makes one out to be quite the lunatic).

I looked at the pics before your text, and so am glad to concur with every point made. The central staircase plan is particularly evident with the grand townhouse. The interior is tantalising in this case given the scale of it - surely something survives. Stockrooms are often great for preserving features.

I've often dreaded to think what the Gilna 1960s building replaced. Buildings that were swept away then were often barely altered, and demolished precisely because they were in their original decayed condition. The other bizarre 1960s'-adapted Billies on Thomas Street are testament to this trend - just they escaped complete eradication. I have little doubt this scheme will not get through, on a number of grounds. There's no cause for concern here.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:23 am

71gray: Has somebody lodged a stiff objection to this, or we all just assuming that it's too horrible and inappropriate a proposal to ever get planning permission?

Thanks for posting that link. I see where no. 32 Thomas Street (the probable early 18th century former twin 'Dutch Billy') is described as ' . . probably dates from the late 18th century' . That's on page 2 of the report, but by page 7, they've stated boldly that: 'No. 32 Thomas Street is a mid 18th century . . . building'!

I don't think they stressed themselves out too much in compiling this 'Conservation & Impact Assessment', they might as well have said 'we haven't a clue what these building are, but here's a few photographs, make up your own mind!'
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby 71gray » Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:56 pm

Hi Gunter, Currently I can see two objections, one from the owner of 37, his points concern the effect of the proposed development on his site. The second is from a group called "Liberties Preservation Group", I have never heard of them personally, (they may well have come into existence to deal specifically with this) In a nutshell they have objected to the proposed height, arguing that the current buildings along the street are no higher then 4 stories, also,the insertion of a new structure out of sympathy into the recognised environment of Thomas street is unwelcome. They request that any new development be sympethic to the character and ambience of the area and that allowing this development would be precedent setting and ultimitly lead to other similar requests. I would be very suprised if An Taisc dont. I have a feeling that DeBlacham and Meagher may?

I intend to place a similar objection to the one above as a local resident along with a number of my neighbours. Apart from the very relevent points put forward above, I think the sheer scale and density of the development should be mentioned. None of the buildings on the Thomas Street side or Shane De Blacham's builing on St Catherines Lane are higher then the parapet of St. Catherines Church. I feel that this has maintained the importance of the church as a local landmark. There are other local issues I would raise about the volume of car parking spaces propsed etc..

Any suggestions or thoughts would be appreciated.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:09 pm

Thanks for that.

I would say that there's no case here for demolition here at all.

They've understated the value of the existing buildings big time. Also, unlike much of Thomas Street / James's Street, the streetscape here is pretty intact, it needs a programme of sensitive conservation and re-use, not demolition and bland re-build.

What would deB+M have to complain about, that they didn't get to demolish it themselves?
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Smithfield Resi » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:40 pm

All, I'm adding my voice (and objection) to this...but I want to highlight that the cutoff date for observations is TOMORROW, 16th July.

Please make your €20 'donation' (maybe they'll have enough to finally designate Thomas Street an ACA)

G'wan G'wan.....


....don't leave it to someone else to do...
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Paul Clerkin » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:44 pm

Crosbie gets go-ahead for 'no star' hotel

HARRY Crosbie has been granted planning permission to build a no-star hotel - where room rates will start at €50 - to the rear of the Vicar Street music venue in Dublin's Liberties.

In March, Crosbie's plan for an eight-storey 180-bedroom hotel was turned down by Dublin City Council because of its height, massing and proximity to properties on Vicar Street, which it said would "seriously injure" and overshadow residential amenities and other developments in the area.

This time around he was looking to build an eight-storey hotel but on a smaller scale with 1,285sq m (13,832sq ft) of space. He is seeking to build 14 more hotel bedrooms than the last application at 194 but, while he is proposing a creative art studio, he is no longer proposing a workshop/ rehearsal space on the ground floor.

Crosbie has said the hotel will be almost "monastic" in terms of its facilities and will not seek a star rating from Bord Fáilte because it will be "too basic to have any stars".

The most lavish aspect of the development will be the €1 million spent on art works by young Irish artists for the bedrooms. A freight lift will bring patrons to the residents' bar, restaurant and check-in area in a "big glass box on top of the hotel" with city views.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby alonso » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:20 pm

it'll be fierce handy fior touring bands playing Vicar st, especially the less paid support bands. In my old muscial days we used to stay at Formula 1 hotels in the UK and the continent - basic as fuck but cheap as chips
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Rory W » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:58 am

great idea - now us folks in the sticks (sorry Greater Dublin Area) can go to a gig or a comedy show and stay in a cheap hotel afterwards with room rates half the priice of a taxi - top banana harry
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:38 pm

Smithfield Resi wrote:All, I'm adding my voice (and objection) to this...but I want to highlight that the cutoff date for observations is TOMORROW, 16th July.

Please make your €20 'donation' (maybe they'll have enough to finally designate Thomas Street an ACA)

G'wan G'wan.....


....don't leave it to someone else to do...


I just read the letters of objection to this planning application and it appears someone's been taking liberties with some archiseek posts.

I suppose it saved some of us €20, so no real harm done.

On the other objections, there's a short sharp one in from An Taisce, but unfortunately some of it's impact is diminished by having some paragraphs relating to a different application inadvertently tacked onto the second page.

There's another good objection in from 'LIBERTIES AGAINST UNSUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT', which is nothing like as nutcase-y as you might have expected from an organisation with that kind of title . (Would it not be better to call the organisation 'LIBERTIES FOR SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT')

In amongst several other objections that focus exclusively on the negative impact on neighbouring property / business interests, there one from neighbouring architectural practice, de Blacam & Meagher, who's office block adjoins the site on St. Catherine's Lane West. Unfortunately, only matters of self interest make it into this objection too, there's not even a single sentence that could be interpreted as expressing the slightest disappointment, or disapproval, of the proposed demolition of the Thomas Street streetscape.

Unbelievably the case officer here appears to be Emma Deane again. Either, there's more than one Emma Deane, or else someboby in DCC is stretching their resourses too thin. The rumours we're hearing at the moment that the DCC Economic Development Unit are gung-ho for this scheme better prove to be unfounded. This is not a economic development issue, there's plenty of development potential in the back areas of this site without bulldozing everything in sight.

Everyone knows Thomas Street needs a shot in the arm, it's about how you administer that shot in the arm. If there's anyone in DCC who thinks that a shot in the arm can still be administered by a butchered amputation, they need to be struck off.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Smithfield Resi » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:02 pm

I just read the letters of objection to this planning application and it appears someone's been taking liberties with some archiseek posts.

I suppose it saved some of us €20, so no real harm done.


:o sorry about that - under a bit of time pressure...didn't think I could really give a reference in a planning obj.:o

There's another good objection in from 'LIBERTIES AGAINST UNSUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT', which is nothing like as nutcase-y as you might have expected from an organisation with that kind of title . (Would it not be better to call the organisation 'LIBERTIES FOR SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT')


I'll mention it to them - I met them at the last LAP consultation meeting...good point.

In amongst several other objections that focus exclusively on the negative impact on neighbouring property / business interests, there one from neighbouring architectural practice, de Blacam & Meagher, who's office block adjoins the site on St. Catherine's Lane West. Unfortunately, only matters of self interest make it into this objection too, there's not even a single sentence that could be interpreted as expressing the slightest disappointment, or disapproval, of the proposed demolition of the Thomas Street streetscape.


Suprised given their involvement in the 1-3 Thomas Court development?

Incidentally there were 7 obj from the market traders that they never got in on time :(

Everyone knows Thomas Street needs a shot in the arm, it's about how you administer that shot in the arm. If there's anyone in DCC who thinks that a shot in the arm can still be administered by a butchered amputation, they need to be struck off.


ACA should stop the landbanking and dereliction - together with a decent LAP, I'd hope this would turn the Liberties around.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Smithfield Resi » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:05 pm

By the way the Protected Georgian next to the Clock pub just lost it's roof and top floor - :( more dereliction loss on Thomas Street.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:21 pm

The solitary appeal against the DCC grant of permission for the office block on top of Vat House no. 7 has apparently been withdrawn. Why would a person go to the bother and expense of appealing a planning decision and then change their mind a few weeks later, or am I being stupidly naive?

Image

There was something of a consensus at the time that this proposal was in the brave, contrasting, contemporary category, but that stepping back behind 7 & 8 Thomas Street just rankles with me, it compromises the bravery and simplicity of the design in a half baked effort to 'reduce it's impact on the protected structures'.

The slightly worrying thing about this decision is that the permission establishes a plot ratio that the rest of the Digital Hub, whenever it comes back in, is likely to want to emulate, or better. The granting of permission for this development in isolation, and in advance of seeing a comprehensive masterplan for the rest of the Digital Hub site, would seem to be a shade reckless.

ImageImage
Vat House no. 7 from Crane Street.

Image
The present view over the roof tops of Vat House no. 7 with the rear of the Digital Hub houses and St. Catherine's Church on Thomas Street beyond.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:03 pm

lunasa wrote:No, no, no and may I add again, no!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bloody tasteless idiots.


I'm afraid it's a 'Maybe'

Dublin City Council decision on the Frawleys proposal: Additional Information

[INDENT]1. The scecific history of the structures and the patterns emerging from the surrounding area indicate that no. 34-35 may possibly have been re-facaded with the original early 18th century structures left intact behind partition and stud walls. As such the applicant shall employ an appropriately qualified person to undertake a full investigation of the exact architectural significance of the exterior and interior of the structures contained within the site of the current proposal, details of which shall be submitted in a report.

2. The location of the site within the grounds of the most important ecclesiastic foundation of medieval Dublin warrents a request for an archaeological survey of the basement walls to be carried with a view to determininng the potential for survival of medieval fabric in the upstanding remains. The applicant shall employ an appropriately qualified archaeologist to undertake this survey and submit a detailed report of this assessment to the Planning Authority.
[/INDENT]

Not exactly the, expletive laden, brutal rejection I was hoping for.

They're going to come back in next month with two report that say: 'eh no, we couldn't find anything', and DCC are going to say: 'ok, right then, here's your planning permission. Btw, your planning contibutions will be €150,000, it's been nice doing business with you'.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Smithfield Resi » Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:31 am

How the hell can they even consider this demolotion proposal with an ACA on the way. Bloody ridiculous. :mad:
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:45 pm

Wafer thin planner's report, but you'll be reassured to know that your objections, and those of the seven other objectors, were ' . . noted and have been taken into account in the assessment of this planning application', all one and a quarter pages of it!

Tellingly, in the inter-departmental reports, the Economic Development Unit, had 'no objection' to the demolition of the structures.

Even leaving aside the issues of loss of historic fabric, the loss of early and rare house types, the rights and wrongs of knocking down structures in a pending Architectural Conservation Area, the loss of authentic urban grain, the loss of context to existing protected structures etc. etc., on pure economic development of the city grounds alone, this development is a backward step.

Thomas Street is a crucial link on Dublin's primary tourist route. the Trinity/Guinness axis. Urban tourist don't come back to cities that don't respect and protect their heritage, everybody knows this. City break tourists aren't stupid, they can tolerate a certain amount of mediocre new cityscape, if there's a solid civic heritage basis to the city that they're visiting, but if everytime they visit, they get to see less and less of the essence of the place, eventually they're going to stop coming back.

This may not matter if the essence of a visit to Dublin is just an expensive booze-up in a Temple Bar pub, but pretty soon even these tourists are going to realize that they can have the same experience, a lot cheaper, by just going down to their own local plastc paddy Irish pub.

Why do we always set our sights so low? We could be one of the cultural capitals of Europe.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Devin » Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:34 pm

Image

The Thomas Court building mentioned elsewhere recently awaits a DCC decision (Thomas Street & Thomas Court elevations above). There are 8 objections against it (Ref. 3328/08). Such a sensitive location. The Malton view of St. Catherine's (below) - which has remained unchanged in such a long period - would be ruined.

This is not the place for a 7-storey building. You have your permission now to go up to that kind of height on Crane Street deBlacam & Meagher architects, but opposite St. Catherine's Church is a different kettle of fish.

John Meagher is on record here as saying his practice were originally going to build a 2-storey building for their own offices around the corner in Hanbury Lane, but the DCC planners encouraged them to go higher (I'll give you three guesses which planner told them to go higher!!). In any event the 5-storey building that was built fits quite comfortably into its site. It's got those sedum (or whatever) plants hanging over the edge of the floors, which are all the rage now for planner-friendly 'softening the visual weight' of proposals. But a 7-storey building opposite the west end of St. Catherine's Church is a different matter altogether ...

Image
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:57 pm

I know it can be dangerous to put too much faith in old prints, but the Emmet execution print does show a good Dutch Billy and two fine triangular gabled houses, (all four storey) on the site. The detail on St. Catherine's Church is very accurate and there is some early brickwork in the gable wall of the present two storey structures on the site, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch of the imagination to see the existing structures as the surviving lower portion of the houses shown in this 1803 print.

I suspect they don't mention that in their planning application.

Image
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Devin » Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:29 pm

Yeah, and there is more evidence to suggest they are very old structures in the form of windows: A couple of months ago, I was passing by and the billboards covering the first floor windows seen in the picture below were temporarily off – probably while being changed or something – and the windows are very old sashes, to my eye of the 1760s-1780s period (ie before the very slender glazing bars used thereafter). So yeah gunter, your hunch would be right. They're almost certainly the remains of those houses in the Emmet print.

GrahamH wrote:Image
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:03 am

The Digital Hub seems to be extraordinarilly fortunate in the number of their planning appellants who go on to change their minds!

Hot on the heels of the withdrawal of the third party appeal against the Crane Street glass top-up, the third party appeals against the P Elliot & Co. development on the Windmill site have now, apparently, been withdrawn.

As far as I can tell, there are two reasons why a third party appeal would be withdrawn.

[INDENT]1. The appellant, having read up on the rise of the Modern Movement, Machines for living in, Brutalism, and the power of contemporary architecture to transform present dullness into futuristic urban Utopias, becomes persuaded that hidden merits in the scheme, that he hadn't noticed the first time round, outweighed earlier concerns about hideous, out of scale, over shadowing, out of character monstrosities.

2. And then there's the second reason.[/INDENT]

I see, from the Digital Hub Newsletter, that a new planning application for the much anticipated residential component of the P. Elliot & Co. scheme on the Windmill site is now imminent.

In the interests of research, and in anticipation of a much needed winter sun break, I've made a decision, in principal, to appeal this application myself, irrespective of what it looks like. ;)


Knowing my luck, persuasion will probably come in the form of four heavies in balaclavas carrying baseball bats,
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby urbanisto » Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:15 am

It will if the Cavan boyos in Elliotts get their hands on you
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby hutton » Tue Sep 16, 2008 1:42 pm

gunter wrote:Knowing my luck, persuasion will probably come in the form of four heavies in balaclavas carrying baseball bats,


Hurleys, Gunter, hurleys ;)
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby ctesiphon » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:23 pm

hutton wrote:Hurleys, Gunter, hurleys ;)


Hurleys? In Cavan? They might pelt you with handballs or set a Silver Band on you... But as long as you have good insurance with Quinn Direct, you should be fine. :D

gunter- if they bring four heavies, you just need five. Keep me posted.

In the meantime, I'll hold the poolside deckchairs, ja?
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:45 pm

Thanks for all the concern.

I'll try and take careful note of which timber sporting impliment is being utilized.

On a lighter note I think 'Misery' is on the box tonight,

. . . ouch!
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