Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby jdivision » Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:07 pm

gunter wrote:.

There is a Sunday Business Post article of 27/4/08, posted in Archiseek, that appears to state that DDDA ignored their own guidelines to allow Liam Carroll to go higher on the Brook Thomas (Spencer Dock) site, but then confusingly, it states that DDDA had previously objected to something similar when Carroll had applied to DCC. These facts having emerged in the current court case between Dunne and Carroll over access to the, Spencer Dock, land-locked site.

This could be interpreted as a quid pro quo for Liam for usurping his quay frontage status, something not unlike 'the ugly little deal', I refered to above!

If DDDA, in their role as planning authority, have put aside their planning standards to further a DDDA (as developer) scheme, this would stink a much as any rancid, grey water, canal.

Are ther no investigative journalists currently working in this city?



The guidelines were ignored in order for the DDDA to get some land for a public park.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Rory W » Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:37 pm

Peter FitzPatrick wrote:Image



I guess the interconnector's station will be here (marked station area) and interchange with the Luas at this point. I don't think the interconnector is in doubt as it's Transport 21 not DDDA however I think they need to clarify the 'temporary' docklands station position - will some maynooth lines run to here still?
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby notjim » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:15 pm

Perhaps this article cagey has in mind; it is discussed on the Commuter page of boards.ie. I amn't sure this has anything to do with the island, I thought this gap between the originally temporary new station and the proposed luas stop always existed in the proposals.


http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/12707183?view=Eircomnet&cat=National

Mind the gap: commuters face walk at 'integrated' rail station
From The Irish Independent
Saturday, 26th April, 2008

THE extension of Luas to the Point Depot in Dublin will link up with the city's newest train station, as long as commuters don't mind a 350-metre walk.

The Department of Transport insisted yesterday that the docklands Luas was integrated with the docklands station, but admitted a short walk would be required to move from one public transport system to the other.

The bizarre possibility of an "integrated" public transport system requiring the use of an umbrella to make a connecting journey was raised yesterday, with Fine Gael accusing the Government of making a "huge mistake" and failing to learn the lessons of the past.

Enterprise, Trade and Employment spokesman Leo Varadkar said the decision not to have Luas stopping at the docklands station was "madness", and urged the Government to re-consider the route.

"Commuters are still scratching their heads about the Government's decision not to link the red and green Luas lines, this mistake is now being rectified at the cost of millions of euros," he said.

"Fianna Fail is about to make the same mistake in the docklands. The new Luas docklands extension will not link up with the existing Iarnrod Eireann docklands train station. Once again, Fianna Fail is showing that it cannot learn from its mistakes.

"Minister Noel Dempsey must urgently review this crazy decision. Dublin commuters already have to face traffic gridlock, the M50 car park, the insanity of the Mad Cow, an inadequate bus network and the prospect of a congestion charge. To build a Luas almost half-a-kilometre from an existing train station is a further insult."

Last week, Mr Dempsey said, in reply to a parliamentary question, that the Luas extension to the Point Depot would include a stop at Spencer Dock.

A spokeswoman for Mr Dempsey said the Luas and docklands rail would be integrated. The Railway Procurement Agency, responsible for delivering the Luas extension, added the Luas would stop "very close" to the docklands.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby gunter » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:30 pm

Rory W wrote: I don't think the interconnector is in doubt as it's Transport 21 not DDDA


€34 billion is the cost of Transport 21, and they go and put some ten year old in charge!

No wonder nothing joins up.

Image
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby BTH » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:49 pm

Isn't it the case that the new MAIN station for the Docklands will be right underneath Spencer Dock when the interconnector finally goes in, therefore the luas as planned will stop right overhead resulting in a direct transfer between modes? Or did I just dream this at some stage...? Please don't tell me that the plans for the underground Spencer Dock station have been scrapped and that we'll be left with the crappy docklands station forever!!
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:53 am

If you look down from Sheriff st. bridge on the East Road side the rail lines are still there and passing underneath.

If one looks at the Liffey Island crappy map, the ground level rail lines no longer exist to where the Interconnector "Station Area" is marked.
I thought this was just an oversight until I saw the Irish Independent article mentioned by notjim. In answer to BTH that Liffey Island map would leave only 2 modes (Underground and Luas with mainline rail missing) instead of all 3 modes being properly integrated.

Maybe gunter's post (nice one gunter) "Smarter than a 10 yr old" is how the DDDA are going to explain to us ordinary Dublin residents how any of the "Island" on stilts makes even the slightest sense. If they came right out and said "We want an island empire" it would make a lot more sense.

jdivision you got a remarkable insight: the DDDA as both Planning Authority and Developer ... you mean an almost unbridled DDDA?
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Rory W » Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:48 pm

cagey wrote:If you look down from Sheriff st. bridge on the East Road side the rail lines are still there and passing underneath.

If one looks at the Liffey Island crappy map, the ground level rail lines no longer exist to where the Interconnector "Station Area" is marked.
I thought this was just an oversight until I saw the Irish Independent article mentioned by notjim. In answer to BTH that Liffey Island map would leave only 2 modes (Underground and Luas with mainline rail missing) instead of all 3 modes being properly integrated.


OK - the issue has been confused

1) the luas will meet the interconnector at 'station area',

2) the trains are not 'underground metro' but dart on electrified lines to maynooth, balbriggan/drogheda

3) trains on the northern line will run through the interconnector from clontarf road onwards to heuston (and beyond)

4) trains on the maynooth line will run through connolly and on to bray

5) the nothern/heuston and the maynooth/bray lines intersect at Pearse (where you can catch diesel trains)

Thus there is no need for the surface docklands station QED

Also Leo Vakaradar is just stirring the shit and the indo are just helping by refering to the docklands staion as the one that is extant rather than the planned one on the interconnector

PS Cagey if the interconnector lines were on the surface on the liffey island map I don't think the interconnector would be able to pass under the liffey (unless built by funderland)
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Rory W » Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:50 pm

BTW can the thread now return to this poxy island idea rather than the interconnector
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby gunter » Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:45 pm

cagey wrote:
Are the DDDA going to explain to us ordinary Dublin residents how any of the "Island" on stilts makes even the slightest sense. If they came right out and said "We want an island empire" it would make a lot more sense.



cagey, maybe 'The Island' is for the guys with the off-shore accounts!
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby johnglas » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:40 pm

Oh, gunter, you are awful!
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Thu May 01, 2008 1:32 am

to Rory W ... I never once mentioned interconnector rail lines on the surface, so your P.S. to me is not only erroneous but in the realms of scorn. From previous posts you all know my view on those who use scorn.

I and everyone else i know hate to be misquoted.

1. Mainline rails still run under Sheriff St bridge.
2. The current mainline rails mentioned above are NOT on the Liffey Island map.

Both statements are true, but the Liffey Island map is not.

Maynooth guys and gals, it seems you are going to have to "Luas it" from Connolly or "Dart it" from Pearse. I am off to the commuter thread to tell them, that the millions spent on the current Docklands Station will be rendered useless.

Now Rory W, how about a post about the DDDA "Empire building" and the "Liffey Island".

Awww gunter, you mean not a funderland Island?
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby notjim » Thu May 01, 2008 6:21 am

cagey: wasn't this always the plan, that the current Docklands Station was always meant to be temporary, with the main Kildare-Malahide service intended to run as a Dart through the Interconnector some distance from the current station and Bray-Maynooth through Connolly, with the more recent possibility raised that the temporary station remain open long term to handle overflow from Connolly, persumably for mainline rather than Dart services. In other words, I don't think this is an Island issue.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby ctesiphon » Thu May 01, 2008 6:40 am

notjim wrote:I don't think this is an Island issue.


You're right. It's not.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Rory W » Thu May 01, 2008 9:13 am

cagey wrote:to Rory W ... I never once mentioned interconnector rail lines on the surface, so your P.S. to me is not only erroneous but in the realms of scorn. From previous posts you all know my view on those who use scorn.

I and everyone else i know hate to be misquoted.

1. Mainline rails still run under Sheriff St bridge.
2. The current mainline rails mentioned above are NOT on the Liffey Island map.

Both statements are true, but the Liffey Island map is not.

Maynooth guys and gals, it seems you are going to have to "Luas it" from Connolly or "Dart it" from Pearse. I am off to the commuter thread to tell them, that the millions spent on the current Docklands Station will be rendered useless.

Now Rory W, how about a post about the DDDA "Empire building" and the "Liffey Island".

Awww gunter, you mean not a funderland Island?


Ah I have to respond

1) Yes there is rails running under sherriff street bridge at the moment - these were for the freight depot that used to be on the spencer dock site - they will be removed as part of the interconnector scheme. As the interconnector line will be beneath the surface and the current lines will be gone on the map they wont be seen. This is planned for 2015.

2) I think this map is purely for illustration and not a 100% OS map from 2015

3) as someone who commutes from Drogheda to Blackrock on a daily basis I will change trains at Pearse. Maynooth people will also be able to interchange at Pearse. On a daily basis I change change at Connolly in the evening and this is not a problem to anyone who has lived in a city.

4) the Docklands station was always planned to be temporary, but they'll get about 8 years out of it - what's the problem It's hardly St Pancras.

5) posts about my thoughts on Liffey Island? - I think I have already made my position clear with previous posts - it's ludicrous
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby gunter » Thu May 01, 2008 11:00 am

The Docklands Maritime Festival is coming up again next month.

Do you think the DDDA will have the courage to put up a public display on this scheme, right there on the North Wall campshire, and invite the public to respond, when they could be pretty assured of a plentiful and an engaged audience, for three or four days?

If they believed in the 'enhanced public realm' merit of this scheme, (if there is any), they would!

Looking back at DDDA promontional stuff from a few years ago, they put a lot of stock on the 'up-grade of the campshire, between the Point and New Wapping Street' as a wonderful addition to the civic amenity of the city, as recently as 2002.

A couple of random snaps , so we don't lose focus on the big issue.

ImageImage
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby shweeney » Thu May 01, 2008 1:17 pm

Rory W wrote:
4) the Docklands station was always planned to be temporary, but they'll get about 8 years out of it - what's the problem It's hardly St Pancras.


In reality it will probably be kept with Navan line trains using it - Martin Cullen has said this is likely. The walk from the (existing) Docklands station to where the Luas\Underground station will be is about 5 mins.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby lostexpectation » Thu May 01, 2008 3:51 pm

jdivision wrote:The guidelines were ignored in order for the DDDA to get some land for a public park.


that's not a good enough reason.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby gunter » Thu May 01, 2008 5:14 pm

This whole thing has to be an elaborate hoax. I'm going to read back on this thread and find out who hasn't been contributing.

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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Fri May 02, 2008 12:47 am

gunter! How I wish the Liffey Island is a hoax but 700 Mtrs long and 15Mtrs wide of grey water!!!

I posted this already but as Gaeilge. This is the English version:
http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=APR100718

The above is not a tender but a "PIN notice". Can anyone tell me what that is please?
I quote:
"II.5) Scheduled date for start of award procedures
03-06-2008"
The above is very worrying.
To Rory W ... I mostly enjoy reading all of your posts. The DDDA "own" the Campshires or do they?
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby theman » Fri May 02, 2008 9:39 am

PIN (Prior Indicative Notice) is effectively tipping off the EU community that DDDA are intending to tender works, althouhgh methinks this is a botch, as DDDA generally don't have aclue when it comes to EU Procurement. They also publish an annual PIN that shoulkd cover all works they intend to procure.

From the Department of FInance website:


"6.7 Prior Indicative (Information) Notices (PINs)

Contracting Authorities are obliged to publish in the OJEC an annual notice, called a Prior Indicative Notice (or a Prior Information Notice) setting out what the Contracting Authority proposes to purchase in the forthcoming year, or otherwise contract for

For Works Contracting Authorities are required to publish Prior Indicative Notices of their procurement plans, if these entail expenditures of €6,242,028 in any particular works category.

For Supplies and Servicesthe thresholds are €750,000 in any particular product category in the case of supply contracts, or in each priority service category as defined in the Services Directive.

Insertion of the Prior Indicative Notice does not mean that Contracting Authorities are obliged to go ahead with the purchase or with the project, if circumstances change as the year progresses; it is merely for the benefit of suppliers.

All Contracting Authorities should routinely examine the position each year to ensure that the necessary Prior Indicative Notices are placed in the OJEC. (A good time to do this would be January, at the start of the Budgetary year).

The Prior Indicative Notices must be set out in accordance with the models in the Directives."
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby gunter » Fri May 02, 2008 10:57 pm

Not that is means anything, but, the Zoning Objective for the North Wall Campshire is Z9

'To protect and improve recreational amenity and open space'

'Office use' is neither permissible, nor open for consideration under this zoning objective. Neither is 'residential use'! The Development Plan states: 'Specifically, residential development shall not be permitted on public or privately owned open space . . '

The boundary of the Z14 zoning, 'To seek the social, economic and physical development or rejuvination of an area with mixed use, of which residential and 'Z6' would be the predominant use' stops at the building line at the edge of the street.

The current Dublin City Development Plan (2005 - 2011) zoning map further categorises the North Wall Campshire as a 'Conservation Area'

The Development Plan states, on p 72, under the heading 'Conservation Areas', 'The River Liffey and it's quays is a designated conservation area. The establishment of riverside quays with buildings facing onto the river was the single most important intervention in shaping the city.'

I know this doesn't mean anything, but I just wanted to put it down on record.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Sat May 03, 2008 2:03 am

I know nothing of Joe Costello (and I hate political footballs) but his "blog" (Feb 2007) gives me hope:

http://joecostellotd.blogspot.com/2007/02/planning-news-bord-pleanala-reject.html
"I am pleased to inform you that An Bord Pleanala have notified us on 26 February of their decision to Refuse Permission for this development. The Bord accepted the residents objections and refused permission for the following reasons:

The site is located in an area zoned Z9 in the Dublin City Development Plan, 2005-2011, where it is the objective of the planning authority to preserve, provide and improve recreational amenity and open space."

Thank you theman and gunter for your very informative posts... I wonder if I can get minister John Gormley to read this thread.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Mon May 19, 2008 4:46 am

There still remains one outstanding question.
I wonder if any of you can answer it.
Are the [B][U]DDDA plans (especially wild schemes) subject to An Bord Pleanala?[/U][/B]
Surely a Green Minister (who is not an architect) whom the DDDA is subject to, would seek the views of An Bord Pleanalla, concerning zone Z9 proposed development.

I surely hope that the "Liffey Island" is not progressing silently (A La Rossport) to a dreadful inevitability.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby theman » Mon May 19, 2008 8:56 am

[quote="cagey"]
Are the [B][U]DDDA plans (especially wild schemes) subject to An Bord Pleanala?[/U][/B]QUOTE]

No. Once a Planning Scheme is adopted, the door is closed for appeals. The only time to get any say in this is when the planning scheme is being drafted or amended. The North Lotts amended Planning Scheme was signed by Dick Roche in July 2006. AFAIK, this makes no reference to the island (this came on the agenda subsequent to the 06 amendmen here [HTML]http://www.ddda.ie/files/business/docs/finalnorthlotts_v4q4.pdf[/HTML]), so DDDA must be getting ready to, ahem, amend this to suit the island.:rolleyes:
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby gunter » Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:59 pm

Not only did DDDA not post up any information boards on their 'Island' scheme during this years Docklands Festival (still on-going), as predicted on this thread some weeks ago, but they shamefully rearranged the venue to avoid using the relevant section of North Wall campshire, lest any more Dubliners become aquainted with it's magnificent amenity and become potential objectors to it's loss.

Image

Image

Instead and for the first time, a good chunk of the festival was squeezed onto City Quay, where it was uncomfortably crowded at times and in closer proximity to the traffic hazard that is the junction of City Quay and Lombard Street.

In all previous manifestations of the Docklands festival, City Quay was just used as a berth and visitor access point to some of the tall ships. In contrast, the full length of the North Wall Campshire was always used for the promenade of the festival.

DDDA will probably say that the bridge works at Spencer Docks interupted the flow of movement on the campshire and that's why they had to use City Quay this year, but there are several of other pinch points on the North wall campshire that patrons manage to negotiate and that argument won't wash, we know the truth.

I'm glad to report that a good sprinkling of citizens still promenaded down the empty section of campshire and enjoyed it's excellent ammenity despite the absence of a climbing wall and the opportunity to purchase cheap plants there this year.

Image

DDDA run a decent maritime festival (with the reservation noted above), the bratwurst was up to standard and the music free, but as an organisation their vision (for the want of a better word), like their mandate, is short term and someone high up in Dublin City Council, who must know better and has a broader view, must rein these guys in before an irreversible mistake is made. I don't want to be relying on a deep economic downturn to halt this 'Island' nonsence years after millions will have been spent on it and after all focus on the real objective of creating an appropriate interface with the city's 'front room' is lost.
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