Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Rusty Cogs » Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:46 pm

cagey wrote:Paul h ... next time you are in Dublin, cross the Liffey to Ringsend and travel towards the Pidgeon House (Poolbeg) and I bet you will roll the car windows up (or vomit). How do you propose dealing with the gases and smell (abnoxious odours) from the Liffey (at very low tides), and Grey Water by any standards is dangerous. I don't object to the smells, just the gathering of them under buildings.
"I remember that summer in Dublin,
And the Liffey as it stank like hell" ... http://www.lyricsandsongs.com/song/518934.html ... the words of Bagatelle.
As a perfect example, there is only 1 bar on Georges Dock and it is almost empty when Georges Dock is almost empty.

The proposed Island would stick out from the current line of buildings by over 120 feet, completely blocking any view in either direction.

OK you are not prevaricating but you are deliberately and seriously minimising the effect of blocking the view along the campshires, for what reason I cannot fathom. :confused: Why is it necessary to break the line of the quays to create a night-life area? An example of what can be exciting for daylight hours can be seen in the DDDA area around the National College of Ireland.


A 'traffic watching' competition, how exciting ;)

The smell you are talking about comes from the waste treatment plant, not the Liffey itself, there is no smell from the Liffey along the North Campshires and using a 30 year old song is hardly the basis for solid arguement.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:55 am

Sorry Rusty but you must have never been on the campshires at a really low tide ,,, (you seem to keep missing the really low tide bit), and the song I think desribes the smell better than I can and I only mentioned it so Paul h was not taking my word for Liffey smell,


But Liffey smell was not the point I was making re Ringsend. The smell there is from Grey Water Treatment ... I am glad you agree. The sewage treatment plant is south of it.
So much for a sweet smelling grey water "Canal".

Did you all like that picture of Lower Mayor Street ... Alas! spoilt at the moment by Luas works.

http://www.dublindocklands.ie/files/business/docs/nlottspart4.pdf ,,, the DDDA words there:
"The Liffey corridor is probably the city's most important view corridor"
I think the DDDA is so blinded by empire building that it has forgotten its own words above.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby paul h » Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:11 am

cagey wrote:"I remember that summer in Dublin,
And the Liffey as it stank like hell" ... http://www.lyricsandsongs.com/song/518934.html ... the words of Bagatelle..


Its the weekend i feel like singing too
I'll let 'ol blue eyes take it away...

http://www.lyricsandsongs.com/song/113533.html
I'm post-dating this song 20yrs(if its done right of course)
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Rusty Cogs » Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:32 am

cagey, are you saying the smell is going to come from the grey water element of the canal or when the tide is out along the northwall campshire ?
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:11 am

Again Paul h you resort to scorn ... it just shows a complete lack of any of your arguments left that are not poppycock.

gunter .. I am saying the smell will come from both sources. The most serious is a Grey water moat.

All inlets from the sea smell, (Rogerstown, Dollymount, Malahide estuary, Booterstown etc.) I accept that; but the gases should not be trapped. The proposal here is not over fresh water or sea water but a mixture, so it is especially bad. I gave the example of Georges Dock, which the Liffey is allowed to fill and at a later stage emptied. Mannn!!! it really is bad for anyone's health when emptied.

The Liffey is regularly dredged to keep the bottom level low. With stilts in the Liffey this dredging will not be possible. I leave the result to your imagination.

My greatest concern is the "Canal". A Grey Water facility should be out of the question in a built up area, and I see no need and also no merit in doing so. The current pumping station in Castleforbes Street is wholly inadequate, so the DDDA are attempting a solution which is reprehensible.

My second concern is that the view along the campshires will be ruined, by the very Authority which should be protecting it. Did you all know the DDDA have recently asked for Tenders for an alternate Liffey blockage??
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Rusty Cogs » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:04 am

How and how often is the Liffey dredged may I ask ? I've never seen it done (then again, I've never noticed obnoxious smells from the stretch of the Liffey in question so maybe the area leaves me distracted in general).
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby gunter » Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:09 pm

cagey wrote:
gunter .. I am saying the smell will come from both sources.

My second concern is that the view along the campshires will be ruined, by the very Authority which should be protecting it. Did you all know the DDDA have recently asked for Tenders for an alternate Liffey blockage??



cagey: When you say the smell will come from both sources, are you talking about the canal and the protestors?

I know you're pretty passionate about this issue, but to me it just seems a little insignificant compared to your second concern: the building out over the campshire issue.

I imagine that any influence that a forum like this can exert is fairly limited, in the greater scheme of things, but whatever influence it has, surely it's going to be diminished if secondary issues (which are presumably solveble to some extent) begin to dominate the debate at the expense of the primary issue.

I hadn't noticed that the Liffey barrage idea was back on the agenda, what info do you have on this?
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby GrahamH » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:43 pm

Yes exactly. Any odours can be sorted. The canal would no doubt be engineered within an inch of its life - it's distracting from the principal issue which is the river projection.

(Though just as an aside, I heard from one of the underwater divers involved in the construction of (I think) the Sean O'Casey Bridge that the soil and rock samples taken from the bed of the Liffey were so contaminated they weren't permitted to be put back in the river - they had to be sent to Germany for dispoaal!)
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:49 pm

[quote="gunter"]I know you're pretty passionate about this issue, but to me it just seems a little insignificant compared to your second concern: the building out over the campshire issue.I].

For locals the "Canal" would be awful, for me I agree the campshires are of most concern.

Without the "canal" there isn't adequate waste water disposal (at least not an inexpensive one) to cater for the proposed buildings, and the DDDA are dependent on Dublin City Council for disposal, and with DCC we can lodge our reasonable objections.

The worse thing is people like Paul h are enamoured of crazy ideas like this, and defending the indefensible.

I am in the course of writing to John Gormley]http://www.ddda.ie/files/business/docs/20080214051759_Indicative%20view%20of%20Floating%20Vi.pdf[/url]
Waht on earth are the DDDA up to now?
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:53 pm

the building out over the campshire issue. is my worst nightmare

So how come GrahamH it hasn't been sorted ... Ringsend, Georges Dock ??

Rusty that dredging barge is an almost permanent presence on the Liffey. It is just a barge , not sophisticated or nice looking.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Rusty Cogs » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:39 pm

Not sure if your talking about the large bet down looking 'Weapon IV' barge. I don't believe it's used to dredge the whole Liffey but if you know it for a fact then I guess it's inability to get under the Liffey Island will be reflected in the discount given on the LI apartments that have to suffer these odours.

Anyhoo, I'm done on the smell thing, except to say that I am a local and I'm not wary of the canal or the Liffey extension in relation to my proboscis.

GrahamH, I want to go back to a point you made earlier about the DDDA having the opportunity to build something special along this stretch of the campshire. While I wish such a thing came to pass, Liam Carroll owns about 50% of the remaining frontage and what do you think are the chances of him creating such a vista (this being the man who designed his own apartment blocks for years) ?
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:13 pm

Sorry Rusty, but as of yet Liam Carroll has a hell of a lot less than 30% of the Liffey Island river frontage part.

http://buckplanning.blogspot.com/search?q=DDDA ... I quote:

"The action has been taken by Mr Dunne and North Wall Property Holding Company Ltd, with registered offices in the Isle of Man, against the DDDA and a company called North Quay Investments Ltd, a company controlled by rival developer Liam Carroll.

The DDDA has entered into an agreement with North Quay Investments to develop a site bounded by North Wall Quay, New Wapping Street, Mayor Street and Castleforbes Road."

As far as I know the above court proceedings have not been completed.
Dunne is surrounded on three sides but not the river side.

The case shows the underhand methods of the DDDA and the Liffey Island project right from the original obscure drawing to the description of how little the stilts will affect the river and the use of the word "Canal".
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Rusty Cogs » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:05 am

How much river frontage does Mr Dunne own ?
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:40 am

Mr Dunne has frontage from Watling Street to Castleforbes Street at least, and this site is now built up to the 3rd storey.
The frontage building to the west of Watling Street is the subject of a CPO by the DDDA.
I dont know about the frontage from Castleforbes Street towards the sea , but the building on that corner is a protected one and was owned by DCC.

What did you think of the DDDA tender seeking, for a Marina off the North Quay just where the stilts would have been ??
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Rusty Cogs » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:54 am

cagey wrote:Mr Dunne has frontage from Watling Street to Castleforbes Street at least, and this site is now built up to the 3rd storey.
The frontage building to the west of Watling Street is the subject of a CPO by the DDDA.
I dont know about the frontage from Castleforbes Street towards the sea , but the building on that corner is a protected one and was owned by DCC.

What did you think of the DDDA tender seeking, for a Marina off the North Quay just where the stilts would have been ??


(unless Mr Dunne's empire stretches to Guinness') I think your thinking of New Wapping St.

The building going on at the river front between New Wapping St. and Castleforbes Rd is a Danninger (Liam Carroll) site. I'm aware of the court case where Sean Dunne is looking for a public road to cross the centre of the old Brooks Thomas site to give him access to his parcel of land but I don't know where that parcel is (hence my last question). There is a mid sized warehouse totally isolated within the Danninger site at the moment, it could be that.

The building to the west of 'New Wapping St. does not have a CPO on it that I'm aware of. This site belongs to Treasury holding and they plan for offices on the site to 8 or so stories. You may be thinking of the building 'Twil Ltd' further down North Wall Quay and Castleforbe st. This building does have a CPO on it. Details of DDDA CPO's can be found

http://www.ddda.ie/index.jsp?nID=301&pID=97

The protected building you speak of is one and the same. The remainder of the west side of Castleforbes belongs to Danninger/Carroll (apart from about 30 mts further up towards Sherriff St.).

So if you exclude listed buildings and access roads Liamo has the lions share of river frontage that would sit behind the Liffey Island. His current offices will be long finished before the Island starts so we can decide then if it's a vista worth protecting.

(A marina instead of the LI extension ?, too exclusive for the are, no public interaction, unless you own a boat).
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:09 am

My apology Rusty ... I stand correctly corrected ... LOL
I meant East of New Wapping st ... the TWIL building, and of course Wapping.

Hmmm !!! the court report stated " surrounded on three sides" ... The plots are obviously smaller than I assumed. I will ask a few more questions. The problem is that it is difficult to get answers.

Maybe that seeking tenders for a "marina village" is intended to confuse?
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:35 am

The more DDDA material I read the more I fear for the area.

For any of you who have doubts re the use of the "Liffey Island Canal",
below is snippet from the DDDA site (Paragraph 2.7 of http://www.dublindocklands.ie/files/business/docs/nlottspart4.pdf )
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby docklands » Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:06 am

As a local resident, there are a few things that can be confirmed following the public presentations by the DDDA (who have not advertised these presentations to all of the residents/owners in the docklands, and neither have they provided any means of feedback, I wonder why?).

1) The DDDA have tried (in the past year) to prevent local groups using the river for pleasure purposes, why? Why do they want to stop boating activities on the Liffey (keep them out of the way of the construction traffic perhaps)?
2) on 1/4/08, Mr Maloney himself confirmed that the reservoir (sorry 'canal') will be used for grey water treatment (reed treatment bed system). Will it become a dump for the crowds going to and from the Point?
3) One has to wonder why they are so desperate to open up the liiffey to the builders?
4) They are trying to say the new building are needed to provide shelter from the wind along the river while putting public gardens on top of the buildings (all their words, not mine). In my experience the wind will be stronger the higher you go. They also claim that arched building on the river will provide wind protection!!!!! Yes arches without glass will provide a lot of protection from the wind and rain. They must think people are really thick.
5) The U2 tower will sit at the rivers edge on the south bank (unless based on the new plans it will be built in the river as well) so the closing of the river mouth is even more negative if you take the proposals for the north wall and south wall into account. To combined effect on future flooding needs to be considered as well.

I have seen waters at spring tides lap over the edge of the north wall, restricting the river flow with buildings can only make this worse.

At the meeting on 1/4/08 there was a very strong FF (the only political party there) presence defending the DDDA, why?

Sometimes you would think you were on the Med when they speak of their plans.

As more people are now living in the area, the campshires are being used a lot more, but that does not suit their argument. You can be sure they won't carry out any studies on that!

I wonder how can this be stopped before we have another Fitzwilliam St. ESB building as a legacy for future generations.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby gunter » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:23 pm

Rusty Cogs wrote:
The building going on at the river front between New Wapping St. and Castleforbes Rd is a Danninger (Liam Carroll) site.

The remainder of the west side of Castleforbes belongs to Danninger/Carroll (apart from about 30 mts further up towards Sherriff St.).

So if you exclude listed buildings and access roads Liamo has the lions share of river frontage that would sit behind the Liffey Island. .


If I owned a good chunk of the quay frontage, and someone came along with a scheme that hijacked my river front status, there's no way I'd be having that. Why is this not listed for the High Court already? has some ugly deal been done? Is the canal really that valuable as a water disposal / filtering mechanism, and if it is, who stands to benefit most if it gets the go-ahead?

This gets curiouser and curiouser.

Here's a recent shot of the North Wall, from the emerging Conference Centre on the right to the IFSC on the left. There's a great choppy scale to the river here and the campshires are maturing nicely. There's not a whole lot wrong with how this is shaping up, except some of the buildings are a bit under-scaled and some of the buildings are just duds.

Image
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby johnglas » Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:43 pm

Agree with all that; the campshires are a real plus, and after the Talbot Bridge, the river is suddenly wide enough to think 'Thalassos! Thalassos!' (well, after a few pints anyway). The STW Citibank is a real downer (externally), but the rest are OK and set a worthy if monotonous tone.
Remember a mile of tall ships right along the quays? You don't want to lose that. I'm still nervous about the conference centre -hero or zero? Time will tell.
Is that a bateau mouche? sacre bleu!
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:36 am

It now seems that the proper Docklands Station will not be built where it originally was planned ... on a site between Upper and Lower Manor Streets ... the rail lines are still there but no station.
(The current Docklands Station was sold to us as "temporary").

The DDDA promised re the Public Transport Plan (2006) "It will also facilitate easy interchange between
all rail modes". See the now forgotten DDDA map at:
http://www.ddda.ie/files/20070621123949_MONITORING%20REPORT%202006.pdf

How quickly a meglomanic "Liffey Island" plan can change things.

It now seems that the Dept of Transport is insisting that the Luas (being constructed through Manor Street), and the current Docklands Station (to the North of Sheriff Street) are "integrated". For those who do not know the area, there is a separation of 500 metres approximately.

The DDDA have room and cash for a 60ft wide "Canal" instead of a properly integrated (with Luas) train station , and now sell the whole Liffey Island project to us under false pretences.

The only reason I can see for this fiasco is that the DDDA "own the Campshires" (for the most part) and would get high rents instead of just levy monies. This is the worst kind of "empire building" at a cost not just to locals but to Dubliners and tourists.

A smelly drain and a river vista ruined? How dare they call it an "Island."
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:36 am

It now seems that the proper Docklands Station will not be built where it originally was planned ... on a site between Upper and Lower Manor Streets ... the rail lines are still there but no station. {See map post 25 of this thread where "Station Area" is marked}.

Despite the DDDA quote: http://www.ddda.ie/files/20070621123949_MONITORING%20REPORT%202006.pdf
"The station location, at the junction of Guild Street and Sheriff St Upper, ensures that the
station will remain fully operational during the construction of the Interconnector, which will be
developed at an adjacent site."


Is the "liffey Island" (and "Canal") the reason for not going ahead with the Interconnector?
No wonder johnglas is driven to drink ... LOL.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby notjim » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:59 am

Sorry Cagey; I don't understand your post: what has changed with the Interconnector?
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby CC105 » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:44 am

Was in favour of this Island addition to the city but it should not be at the expense of integrated transport. Why cant both be achieved.

Was this the same docklands station mentioned in the original rejected spencer dock scheme. I thought this was central to any development on spencer dock and was one reason why the site was being developed as so.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby gunter » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:55 am

gunter wrote:If I owned a good chunk of the quay frontage, and someone came along with a scheme that hijacked my river front status, there's no way I'd be having that. Why is this not listed for the High Court already? has some ugly deal been done?


cagey wrote:It now seems that the proper Docklands Station will not be built where it originally was planned ... on a site between Upper and Lower Manor Streets ... the rail lines are still there but no station.

The DDDA promised re the Public Transport Plan (2006) "It will also facilitate easy interchange between
all rail modes".

How quickly a meglomanic "Liffey Island" plan can change things.


The DDDA have room and cash for a 60ft wide "Canal" instead of a properly integrated (with Luas) train station , and now sell the whole Liffey Island project to us under false pretences.

The only reason I can see for this fiasco is that the DDDA "own the Campshires" (for the most part) and would get high rents instead of just levy monies. This is the worst kind of "empire building" at a cost not just to locals but to Dubliners and tourists.

A smelly drain and a river vista ruined? How dare they call it an "Island."



cagey, I think I follow your argument on what's happening to the Docklands station, but I'm not 100% sure. Is there a simple map you could post with a couple of Xs on, just to make it clear! and also to make clear how the 'Liffey Island' has changed things in this regard.

There is a Sunday Business Post article of 27/4/08, posted in Archiseek, that appears to state that DDDA ignored their own guidelines to allow Liam Carroll to go higher on the Brook Thomas (Spencer Dock) site, but then confusingly, it states that DDDA had previously objected to something similar when Carroll had applied to DCC. These facts having emerged in the current court case between Dunne and Carroll over access to the, Spencer Dock, land-locked site.

This could be interpreted as a quid pro quo for Liam for usurping his quay frontage status, something not unlike 'the ugly little deal', I refered to above!

If DDDA, in their role as planning authority, have put aside their planning standards to further a DDDA (as developer) scheme, this would stink a much as any rancid, grey water, canal.

Are ther no investigative journalists currently working in this city?
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