Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:10 am

But a major issue should be with "The Canal Idea". Have any of you come across nice smelling "Grey Water" and a building out over the liffey with its Summer Aromas? Wake up all you promoters of this idea. I for one would not like to work over the Liffey in the Summer.
One major Architectural thing; none of this idea allows for the preserved buildings taking their rightful place along the Quays.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby johnglas » Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:55 am

It just reinforces the idea of a tidal barrage on the Liffey first, to control tide levels. It's a good way to delay or obstruct this dev - no barrage, no building out over the river.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:29 am

To GrahamH and Paul h in particular

I have just figured out the reason for "The Canal" :eek:
The link below applies to the Crosbie building just commenced on the corner of Abercorn Road and Sheriff Street. http://www.pleanala.ie/ord/205/D205632.DOC

I quote:
"3. Water supply and drainage arrangements, including the disposal of surface water, shall comply with the requirements of the planning authority for such works and services. In this regard, foul water shall be treated on site in a private wastewater treatment facility, and shall subsequently be discharged to the River Liffey, along with surface water, via a pumping station and rising main, on an interim basis and to the standard of the planning authority, pending the availability of adequate public drainage facilities. [U]The entire cost of these works shall be at the developer’s own expense..[/U].. "

It is in this surreptitious way the DDDA propose their "Canal" with its foul smell and more obviously they have little or no regard for locals or the river Liffey.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby gunter » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:37 am

cagey wrote:
I have just figured out the reason for "The Canal" :eek:

It is in this surreptitious way the DDDA propose their "Canal" with its foul smell and more obviously they have little or no regard for locals or the river Liffey.


Excellent piece of work.

Everything always looks so much clearer at 3 in the morning. There's always a motive, you just have to hold your nose and dig deep enough!
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby gunter » Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:10 pm

Peter FitzPatrick wrote:Image

So this rears its head again. It seems the DDDA are totally hung up on breaking the line of the liffey one way or another whether it be gormely's sculpture, custom house proposal or this yoke. I've no issue with the canal idea but why the need to breach the quay wall & indeed their own campshires project ??


Until last night, I was pretty sure that this proposal was just a bit of kite flying by DDDA to show us how mad and exciting they are, but this scheme was in Dick Gleeson's presentation at Bolton Street and there was nothing to indicate that DCC might have any issues with it.

If DDDA and DCC are in this together, and if it's not tecnically 'high rise', they can pretty much grant themselves planning permission for this, with just Bord Pleanala between us and an urban jelly mould.
Image

I remember being told a story,I don't know if it true or not, that around 1990 a bunch or chancers bought up leaseholds on the old transit sheds on the North Wall campshire and put together a proposal for an apartment sheme on the site with some kind of pontoon boardwalk out on the river. As I heard it, they got as far as a pre-planning meeting, which was attended by a senior planner, who is now a very senior planner.

The chancers were duly sent packing, but not because their scheme was daft, or it had a four storey vehicular ramp behind it, they were sent packing because 'the Duke of Ormonde had set in train a process, in the 17th century, of building formal quays, and thereby, single handedly, he turned the city around to face the river across generous public streets, and no bunch of chancers were going to come along now and interfere with that great vision', or words to that effect.

I can't say for sure if this ever happened, and I haven't seen any of the chancers around in a while, but this is the drawing they went in with.
Image
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby paul h » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:31 pm

I'm pretty sure those pictures are for illustrative purposes only, and each buildings design will be submitted by each developer as and when this gets started , or not.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:25 am

Stop prevaricating Paul h ... what do you say to the DDDA idea of expecting people to work in offices (or worse still "Live") on an "Island" stretching between a stinking Grey Water moat to above the dubious aromas of the Liffey in the Summer time at low tide and hiding the facts by calling the moat a "Canal"? You can guess those judges in Lisbon never smelt the Liffey in summer or opened a window above a Grey Water facility. An award my azz!!

BTW gunter nice drawing; long live the uninterrupted campshires with no DDDA follies.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby paul h » Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:04 am

cagey wrote:Stop prevaricating Paul h ... what do you say to the DDDA idea of expecting people to work in offices (or worse still "Live") on an "Island" stretching between a stinking Grey Water moat to above the dubious aromas of the Liffey in the Summer time at low tide and hiding the facts by calling the moat a "Canal"? You can guess those judges in Lisbon never smelt the Liffey in summer or opened a window above a Grey Water facility. An award my azz!!

BTW gunter nice drawing; long live the uninterrupted campshires with no DDDA follies.


Cagey - if that is your real identity...... To you and yours GROW A PAIR.
If you dont like the smell, drop in some of your saturday-night old spice that your mammy gave you for Christmas.
Or alternatively just dont rent any office space there.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Rory W » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:56 am

I believe that so-called 'chancer' was Mr Harry Crosbie - he was turned down on the grounds that it was the stated objective of the DCC to have clear campshires all the way to the East Link (A process started by Ormond in the 1660s!). A process I and most others support.

As someone who has lived and worked in the docklands previously yes it can get whiffy but you'll survive. However given this moat is a rather pathetic width (appears to be no wider than 20ft from the illustration) and given that they wish to build taller buildings on the site it will be a dark overshadowed ditch esp on its northern stretch (if stretch is the right word as you could walk the island strect in 5 minutes).

Given its tiny-tots scale and the fact it privatises a stretch of the campshires (which is against the original objectives of the ddda/dcc plan) I am firmly opposed to this 'wheeze of the week' scheme.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby gunter » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:44 am

Rory W wrote:I believe that so-called 'chancer' was Mr Harry Crosbie - he was turned down on the grounds that it was the stated objective of the DCC to have clear campshires all the way to the East Link (A process started by Ormond in the 1660s!). A process I and most others support.


Rory W: That is exactly the point I was trying to make. The clear campshires, particularly the sunny, North Wall campshire, is a hugely valuable part of the city's public domain and was recognised as such even in the bleak times, twenty years ago, when there were still grotty transit sheds on much of the site.

The wobbly 'Liffey Island' scheme might be a nice student project, or a bit of eye candy for a architectural expo, and it's always good to ripple the inertia by throwing the occassional rock in the pond, but if they start spending public money on this thing, as a legitimate go-ahead project, it's time to break out the burning torches as far as I'm concerned.

With reference to Harry Crosbie, he wasn't the 'chancer' I was refering to, although, now that you mention it, I think he may have harboured similar ambitions at one stage.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Rusty Cogs » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:16 pm

gunter wrote:Rory W: That is exactly the point I was trying to make. The clear campshires, particularly the sunny, North Wall campshire, is a hugely valuable part of the city's public domain and was recognised as such even in the bleak times, twenty years ago, when there were still grotty transit sheds on much of the site.

The wobbly 'Liffey Island' scheme might be a nice student project, or a bit of eye candy for a architectural expo, and it's always good to ripple the inertia by throwing the occassional rock in the pond, but if they start spending public money on this thing, as a legitimate go-ahead project, it's time to break out the burning torches as far as I'm concerned.

With reference to Harry Crosbie, he wasn't the 'chancer' I was refering to, although, now that you mention it, I think he may have harboured similar ambitions at one stage.


Retaining the historic line of the campshire is a fair arguement but the North Wall campshire doesn't get a lot of use. It's barren and windswept and pretty cold a lot of the year. It gets a bit of through ped traffic but hardly anyone stops to hang around (for above reasons). Apart from the excellent tall ships festival it's very underused. It's now 1.13pm, lunch time, sunny day and I count five people in situ on the whole stretch between Guild St and the East Link (not forgetting 2,000 people work in the PwC building alone). The idea of a continuous campshire reclaimed from years of neglect is all good but if no one wants to use it then maybe time for a rethink.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby gunter » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:51 pm

Rusty Cogs: Surely when a decent, mixed use, high density development (including a bit of exciting architecture, if at all possible!) eventually happens on the Spencer Dock site, that stretch of campshire between the conference centre and the point should be a bustling little strip.

I wouldn't mind a few arty 'pavilions' etc to bring a bit of focus here and there, but to build out over the campshire, on one of the few stretches of the Liffey with real 'capital city' urban scale, would be a blunder to match anything we've done before, IMO.

I think the smell thing may be over-stated, but a U-shaped canal with no obvious function (assuming Cagey hasn't stumbled on the real reason), in no way compensates for the loss of the campshire and the civic scale here that we were just on the point of finally getting.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby tommyt » Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:22 pm

Rory W wrote:I I am firmly opposed to this 'wheeze of the week' scheme.


:D I like, can we retrospectively go back to the original Anthony Gormley Sculpture and call that the 'wizz of the week'?
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Rusty Cogs » Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:41 pm

Well the Liffey doesn't smell down by the North Lotts, possibly because the tidal nature of the water is not as pronounced (ie. when the tide is out, no river bed is exposed). Grand Canal Dock doesn't smell, helped I imagine by the fact that it's not static (grand canal flowing through it). Georges Inner Dock I'm told does smell (how bad I don't know but enough people live beside it to know I'm sure). So I guess it's about how the 'Liffey Island' canal is managed. If it's essentially a still body of water which takes in run off water, building grey water and any kind of waste water then yes it could smell. So is there an engineering soloution to avoid this ?

Regarding the campshire, I'm by no means sold on the extension but I do have issues with it as it is (the campsire that is). Think of the area in front of the Customs House and you get an idea of what it feels like to sit down there (only even more windswept). The extension would be a line of shops, cafe's, restaurants facing the river with an arcade running alongside. I'd rather cross the North Quay road (no mean feat) and sit at the riverside at a table under cover than on an exposed metal bench with traffic running behind me as my sandwich wrapper blows up the quays.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby notjim » Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:10 pm

Rusty Cogs wrote: (grand canal flowing through it).


I amn't arguing, the smell thing is a red herring but . . .

You know canals don't really flow; there is some small flow I guess, water leaking down through locks, but flowing makes you think rivers and canals certainly don't do that.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Rusty Cogs » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:52 pm

notjim wrote:I amn't arguing, the smell thing is a red herring but . . .

You know canals don't really flow; there is some small flow I guess, water leaking down through locks, but flowing makes you think rivers and canals certainly don't do that.


Well the Grand Canal as I've ever known it doesn't smell so I would like there to be some element of 'flow' to the LI canal.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Rory W » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:27 pm

Updating my position on this - the bleak windswept campshires are by no means idea and I think that pavillion style cafes and restaurants would be fine on them (but ones a little bit better than the ones by the Clarion please) however I dont support the building of 20 storey buildings over the campshires (I'm fine with them on the other side of the quay road however tall building fans).
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby GrahamH » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:54 pm

gunter wrote:one of the few stretches of the Liffey with real 'capital city' urban scale, would be a blunder to match anything we've done before, IMO.


Yes I think this just about sums it up. I think there's a supreme elegance in tall buildings being curbed by water - Manhattan in particular works to dramatic effect in that respect, as do many US cities. The subservience of development to a large natural mass of some kind exerts a discipline that is extremely pleasing to the eye (incidentally one of the reasons I still think the Boardwalk is a blight on the city). Of course many cities have various incursions out into their waters, but with the difference with Dublin makes for no comparison. The Liffey cannot absorb such an intrusion without radically altering its form and impacting on the wider riverscape. Also in the longer term, views to any possible development in the Docks proper are also going to be seriously injured, by which time this scheme viewed as a noughties folly to short-sightedness.

Go tall by all accounts, and animate the campshires as much as possible, but the line of the Liffey ought to be maintained.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Rusty Cogs » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:40 pm

Photogenic but not functional :rolleyes:
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Peter Fitz » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:58 pm

GrahamH wrote:Also in the longer term, views to any possible development in the Docks proper are also going to be seriously injured, by which time this scheme viewed as a noughties folly to short-sightedness.


I can see it being up there with the loop line as something future generations will long to have removed ...
Reinstate the line of the Liffey - Archiseek thread circa 2040.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:04 am

Paul h ... you haven't answered the question ... and scorn has no place in this very good thread... shame on you.

For the record ... I dont mind the Liffey smell, even at its strongest at low tide in the summer. It's just that it would not be healty to work or "Live" over it.

As the song says I couId "Jump on a bus to Dun Laoghaire ... and have a drunk on the bus" (from NYC maybe) tell me he invented the "Liffey Island". I could believe that, and would "Be glad I wasnt going too far".

I regularly sit and look out to those green and red lighthouses as Ormond wished, and at night the lights built into the walkways are beautiful as are the indirect light panels all along the campshires. Even the glinting stainless steel rubbish bins enhance the place. A bit cold this time of year to walk there, but the walk was delightful last summer, and for that I sincerely thank the DDDA, but please DDDA don't spoil the good work.

notjim ... please note .. the Grey Water thing is for real and no red herring unless you are equating smells ... LOL.
From an attendee at that DDDA/residents meeting was where I heard of the Grey Water idea first, (admitted by the DDDA reps I think) and it shocked me. Greed to gain free building ground and greed not to have to spend on a huge private water treatment plant seems to be the two criteria at the heart of this DDDA "Liffey Island" proposed monstrosity, and like a low water George's Dock evil smelling in context and presentation.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:47 am

Again, I am shocked by the DDDA. For sure, John Murphy does not have any regard for this forum.

Check this out:
http://www.ga.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=APR100718

Are these people for real? ... they think so, agus as Gaeilge comh maith!!

20 meters wide Grey Water ... OMG!

John Gormley I hope you are there when we need you.

To Rusty Cogs ... on 20/Mar/2007 1/3 of the river bed was exposed (the bits nearest the Quay Walls), albeit it was a windy night and it didnt smell so badly, but with a building over it to entrap the "vapours" ... Phew!!! I hate to think of it.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby paul h » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:03 am

Cagey you obviously have some issue with smells, my girlfriend is a bit like that too.
If there is the will to keep the water smell-free and reasonably clean then yes it can be done.
You might be surprised to know how much can be done in life with some bright minds on the case.


This could be an exciting little area if it's developed properly, and maintained properly


If there was maybe a slight lean towards providing decent high calibre nightlife,
with a decent mixture of bars and cafes on the waterfront and elsewhere ,it could be a real destination, such as lets say a mini Temple Bar without the vulgarity
Plus throw in the intensity/density from the mixture of taller buildings (maybe some nice night-lighting schemes for some of the buildings) into the mix and we have a winner.
The only negative is the slight river intrusion but it is only slight so it does not concern me.
I'll jump to a conclusion and say that if it wasn't the 'river intrusion' upsetting people it would just be something else.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby gunter » Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:08 am

cagey wrote:Again, I am shocked by the DDDA.

Check this out:
http://www.ga.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=APR100718

Are these people for real? ... they think so, agus as Gaeilge comh maith!!



They're crossing the line now! This means they're going to start spending serious money on this little scheme of theirs.

If Archiseek had a van, I'd be for sending it up the M3 about now, pick up a couple of dozen, lightly washed futurephobes, and drop them on the North Wall campshire, where nobody would notice any odour issues, and potentially, they could do some good.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby cagey » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:15 pm

Paul h ... next time you are in Dublin, cross the Liffey to Ringsend and travel towards the Pidgeon House (Poolbeg) and I bet you will roll the car windows up (or vomit). How do you propose dealing with the gases and smell (abnoxious odours) from the Liffey (at very low tides), and Grey Water by any standards is dangerous. I don't object to the smells, just the gathering of them under buildings.
"I remember that summer in Dublin,
And the Liffey as it stank like hell" ... http://www.lyricsandsongs.com/song/518934.html ... the words of Bagatelle.
As a perfect example, there is only 1 bar on Georges Dock and it is almost empty when Georges Dock is almost empty.

The proposed Island would stick out from the current line of buildings by over 120 feet, completely blocking any view in either direction.

OK you are not prevaricating but you are deliberately and seriously minimising the effect of blocking the view along the campshires, for what reason I cannot fathom. :confused: Why is it necessary to break the line of the quays to create a night-life area? An example of what can be exciting for daylight hours can be seen in the DDDA area around the National College of Ireland (Lower Mayor Street).
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