The failure of Ireland

Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby phil » Tue May 15, 2007 2:02 pm

Mick, thanks for posting that. It really does look of significant interest.
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby schuhart » Tue May 15, 2007 2:08 pm

[quote="mickletterfrack"]You’]Reflect on what you are saying here. You are agreeing that Irish people generally don't have much of a clue about climate change, and then trying to relate the general ignorance that you've identified in some way to Ireland not being a major polluter. In a statement that you start by saying You’re the one that’s ignorant in fact not the Irish people.

Would you like to try making your point again? I promise not to raise the small matter of climate change being a global matter and the idea that the rest of the world will see no reason why Ireland shouldn't go on burning oil to be the band while they fundementally restructure their lives. After all, we're harmless, fun loving Hobbits and everyone loves Hobbits. That's why we always do so well at Eurovision.

I'll be happy if you just manage to make a coherent statement along the lines 'Irish people are ignorant about climate change, but of course if you look at it in purely national terms we're not a big part of the problem. Hence, if you could tow Ireland off onto another Earth-like planet someone in the Crab Nebula, they'd have no reason to take an interest.'
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby JL » Tue May 15, 2007 2:21 pm

I’m a little bit lost here….

I thought we were talking about two separate issues. One is self-examination, which is good but I think if it goes too far it becomes self-absorption and gets in the way of ever actually looking at things objectively and doing something.

The other is about what we are trying to achieve and not missing opportunities. My view is that we should be looking 50 years into the future (designing for climate change, a post-carbon economy and aiming for the best and most elegant technological and ecological urban and architectural designs) and not 50 years into the past (a world where high rises and fly-overs are the Next Big Thing).
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby schuhart » Tue May 15, 2007 2:47 pm

JL wrote:One is self-examination, which is good but I think if it goes too far it becomes self-absorption and gets in the way of ever actually looking at things objectively and doing something.
Absolutely. We're all in favour of that, so there's probably little need to discuss that any further.
JL wrote:The other is about what we are trying to achieve and not missing opportunities. My view is that we should be looking 50 years into the future (designing for climate change, a post-carbon economy and aiming for the best and most elegant technological and ecological urban and architectural designs) and not 50 years into the past (a world where high rises and fly-overs are the Next Big Thing).
I think your suggestion is apt and relevant. Others seem more convinced by the idea that, as Ireland is not a big net polluter, we can forget about all that and build all the high rises and fly-overs that we like. I'd love to stay and talk, only my Lamborghini Diablo Roadster awaits.
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby mickletterfrack » Tue May 15, 2007 3:01 pm

Id like to have kept to the original thread kept our egos and sensitivities out of this and not argue semantics.
Jaysus what is it with some people on this forum ... you say Ireland isnt responsible for global warming and suddenly your quoted as saying your in favour of high rises and flyovers...
I wasnt implying we shouldnt take an interest in fact I did say its an oppurtunity for Ireland to once again lead the way and Id argue as we historicaly werent a major polluter we should not have to shoulder an inbalance in responsibility, but I never said we should run riot with our emissions. Besides by your logic the yak farmer in Mogolia with a carbon footprint in the +200 range should be condemed for his ignorance too. Sure the Germans, French , mainland europeans are more educated about re-cycling (big deal) have been doing it for years and are shocked when they see us thrash our little Dannone actimels.. but heh we still come in way under the radar as regards which one of us is impacting climate change the most. Its a bit like the old buying indulgences from the papacy, or like Al Gore would argue he buys carbon credits in the African savannah to offset his huge electricity bill, 24x7 heated indoor swiming pool etc , so his footprint is balanced and ignorant paddy is to blame cos he doesnt know what his footprint is. Im not going to stand by and let someone take some kind of educated high-ground calling Irish people ignorant. Id prefer to be ignorant and not-recyling with low emissions than educated recycling but with a high-carbon footprint.
Can we get back to solving Irelands urban design failings now...Get the whole nation behind a grand concept of an eco city, improve design and cut down emmissions two birds with one quill.
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby schuhart » Tue May 15, 2007 3:15 pm

mickletterfrack wrote:Id like to have kept to the original thread kept our egos and sensitivities out of this and not argue semantics.
I think we can do all that. I won't even argue the semantics of exactly how many different statement you've mixed up in that single statement, or we'll be up the creek without being able to see the wood for the trees.
mickletterfrack wrote: by your logic the yak farmer in Mogolia with a carbon footprint in the +200 range should be condemed for his ignorance too.
In fairness, you were more overreacting to the use of the word 'ignorant'. If you were a Mongolia yak farmer reading the statement you've just made, the equivalent response would be for you to say 'well I think you're ignorant and very fat too'.
mickletterfrack wrote:.Im not going to stand by and let someone take some kind of educated high-ground calling Irish people ignorant.
I'm not taking any high ground. I'm not excluding myself from the statement.
mickletterfrack wrote: Id prefer to be ignorant and not-recyling with low emissions than educated recycling but with a high-carbon footprint.
And I'm proud to be an Oki from Muskogee. But the point is surely that ignorance means you won't know whether you're doing harm or not, so the low emission status is purely accidental. Hence, our penchant for developing a car dependant lifestyle because Hobbits will always be able to afford oil.
mickletterfrack wrote: Get the whole nation behind a grand concept of an eco city, improve design and cut down emmissions two birds with one quill.
A useful vision.
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby JL » Tue May 15, 2007 3:20 pm

Something to note on this issue is that it is not a matter of eco-awareness. Peak oil is going to happen, very likely in the next 10 years according to a lot of projections. So a low carbon economy will not be an option but a fact. The question will be the impact on our society in the transition. Design and planning has a key role in deciding to what extent we can mitigate disruption to our way of life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

I remember a fantastic interview around June 2000 on RTE – interviewer asked a couple of market traders in Dublin about their preparations for the Euro. Response? “Nah, it’ll never happen!”
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby schuhart » Tue May 15, 2007 3:51 pm

JL wrote:Something to note on this issue is that it is not a matter of eco-awareness. Peak oil is going to happen, very likely in the next 10 years according to a lot of projections. So a low carbon economy will not be an option but a fact. The question will be the impact on our society in the transition. Design and planning has a key role in deciding to what extent we can mitigate disruption to our way of life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil
Now you listen to me, Samwise Gamgee. Don’t be giving yourself airs and graces and talking like you knows what you don’t. That’s all stuff to do with Big Folk, and there’s no need for Hobbits to go meddling in things that don’t concern them.

Tesco is great for the cheap petrol. And there’s lots of Tescos and more going up all over.
JL wrote:I remember a fantastic interview around June 2000 on RTE – interviewer asked a couple of market traders in Dublin about their preparations for the Euro. Response? “Nah, it’ll never happen!”
That strikes me as something explicable by the hypothesis that we’re ignorant and stupid. However, we of course should not say that even if it is true. It was stupid and ignorant of me to think otherwise but then, hey, I’m Irish.
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby JL » Tue May 15, 2007 3:54 pm

Will you stop it with the ignorant already?
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby mickletterfrack » Tue May 15, 2007 4:14 pm

We have developed a car-dependant lifesyle not only because we are hobbits following a trend but becasue in most cases we have no choice. The urban planners and development visionaries who tore up the streetcar, trolley and rural rail ines throughout Ireland left joe o'blogs with little realistic option. Now would they have been the educated visionaries or the ignorant ones. In Ireland it was lack of vision, in America it was far more sinister, the car companies actively pursued a policy in the 60s 70s of buying automated public transit systems to encourage dependance on automobiles. Irl could probably learn alot from Canada, cities like Montreal and Quebec similar scale but much nicer public and private development. Schuhart thankfully I didnt get any of the counter-points you were trying to make earlier they were so poorly presented ,ahhh ignorance IS bliss, send me an email if you want to discuss our personal differences outside this forum, others arent interested Im sure.
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby schuhart » Tue May 15, 2007 4:24 pm

mickletterfrack wrote: I didnt get any of the counter-points you were trying to make earlier they were so poorly presented ahhh ignorance IS bliss,
You're stealing my lines. Probably a wise decision in the circumstances.
mickletterfrack wrote:send me an email if you want to discuss our personal differences outside this forum, others arent interested Im sure.
I'm sure I would if it was possible to have a personal difference emerge on an anonymous forum.
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby JL » Tue May 15, 2007 5:26 pm

Anyway.

If we jump forward 50 years, what opportunites should we try and exploit between now and then?
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby ihateawake » Tue May 15, 2007 9:51 pm

schuhart wrote: It was stupid and ignorant of me to think otherwise but then, hey, I’m Irish.


Havnt read the thread in its entirety, as its long and time is short, but scuhart, to simply dismiss ireland as a collective pool of ignorance is an easy, unhelpful and unproductive statement.... continue to wallow in <b>your</b> ignorance for as long as you like, but it certainly wont change anything you disapprove of in Ireland... your opinion is subject to what your exposed to but, imho, there are plenty of pro-active(politically, culturally, enviornmentally, etc) people here willing to work towards a "vision" ....something that is a worthy measure of success. People like yourself who seem obsessed to doom the country to failure are the problem with it, there is no endemic inferiority complex in the irish people (yourself excluded of course) and we are not limited to thinking small... if you want to talk infrastructure, I agree there is some incompetance, but consider that economic success is new to ireland and that there is a learning curve, especially in a democratic system... the dramatic rise in entrepreneurship alone over the last 10 yrs refutes a sense of inferiorty. Your trolling only yeilds useless rant, not constructive debate....shup

If we jump forward 50 years, what opportunites should we try and exploit between now and then?


IMHO..... the retention, promotion, proliferation and perhaps even evolution of Irish culture(music, language, literature, etc) for those of you who want to put dublin on the map, do it with substance... anyone can build high. Dont get me wrong, I love shiny towers:D

or an ecocity.... nice idea;)
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby mickletterfrack » Tue May 15, 2007 11:20 pm

Theres an interesting chap in the UK (used to live in West Cork, Rob Hopkins) he is at the forefront of the permaculture movement and wrote an interesting dissertation on 'Permaculture - a new approach to rural design' I know I know whats rural about Dublin (?) except maybe the Irish who live there that others are fixated about their ignorance...
Before I go any further or Im misquoted by Schuhart again, can I categorically state that ... I dont believe the Irish are ignorant, far far from it, and Im not in favour of high rises nor fllyovers simply for the sake of them.

Anyways my point is Robs current project is developing Transition Cities in the UK, (Bristol being one) moving away from peak oil dependancy to more sustainable development. He seems to have gathered some traction over there, having said that, part of the reason he left Ireland was because the urban planners, council development officers etc simply made the whole process a nightmare in West Cork. No visionaires or risk takers there Im afraid.
If anyone has the chance, inclination or time to work/follow up with what Rob is doing in the UK or even those connected to the permaculture movement in Ireland Id recommend it , you wont regret it. Could bring alot to the way you think about processes and how they feed off and into other processes. Everything is connected.. maybe thats part of the problem with Irish design, too much is taken in isolation with indiviual solutions for percieved isolated issues , when in fact a synergistic design solution is required. I cant believe I used the 's' word but it seemed apropos for once.

http://transitionculture.org/

Schuhart , what are you babbling on about.... what do you mean I stole your lines...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickletterfrack
send me an email if you want to discuss our personal differences outside this forum, others arent interested Im sure.
Response posted by Schuhart
I'm sure I would if it was possible to have a personal difference emerge on an anonymous forum.

Isnt that what this forum is all about, everyone expressing personal opinions, and the emergence of those differences ... besides theres options on the forum to email or send private msgs if I have offended your delicate sensibilities.
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby JL » Tue May 15, 2007 11:38 pm

Yes. Heard him talking about this and the Transition towns project sounds great - thanks for the link.
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby darkman » Wed May 16, 2007 1:17 am

Look, lets get real, we have failed on infrastructure and the physical environment. Go to Dubai (a city in a small country) and look at their ambition. It puts us to shame. Ive every right to be angry at our failure to create a capital to be proud of and dont go on with the bullsh*t that small is beautiful- its not. Its pahtetic and shows us in a bad light. Where is the ambition and the intent to make a statement in Dublin architectularly? Yet again another 32 storey spectacular building rejected in Ballsbridge. Im sorry but we are being f**ked over of opportunity by stupid people in DCC. None of them have ambition to build big. God forbid we look too important. Im sorry but you guys who think everthing is fine you honestly have your heads stuck up your arse. Ive travelled the world and am well informed to tell you what a stupid race of people we are. Admit it FFS.
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby Devin » Wed May 16, 2007 6:07 am

HAH :D The truth comes out!!! So the thread was about high-rise after all!!

Don’t know if you read the papers here darkman but there was a weekend feature on the environmental catastrophe that is Dubai last Saturday.

You and the rest of the high rise lot should stop clogging up this site and take yourselves off to Dubai if that’s what you like to look at and consider to be successful urban form.
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby The Denouncer » Wed May 16, 2007 8:31 am

darkman - you know where to cast your votes next Thursday anyway..:D
http://www.newheartfordublin.ie/
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby PVC King » Wed May 16, 2007 8:40 am

Well done

10 years and what have we seen in planning terms.

30,000 one offs a year and no tall buildings

does PD stand for 'Pitiful Densities'?

or is it 'Petrol Dependency'?

or even 'Politiicised Decentralisation'

The tail assimulated years ago you might as well vote FF
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby JL » Wed May 16, 2007 8:51 am

Was sent this recently and didn't know whether to laugh or cry (actually I was laughing, but guiltily):

http://www.freewebs.com/artpaper21/Dubai.ppt

ON the PD thing, the ambition is comendable but the images they show are completely embarrassing. The infantile photomontage doesn't help. Cruise ships as regeneration - come on! There's a cruise ship terminal on the west side of Manhattan and it's as dead as a doornail most of the time (I did a short study on it). I can't believe that cruise liners are going to be any use as a sustainable solution.

Although the idea of regeneration is great they have obviously not spoken to anyone who knows anything about cities, urban design or architecture. Actually if there is a big problem with Ireland it's not lack of ambition, it's people ranting on about subjects they don't really know anything about and not being bothered to go and do some research.
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby PVC King » Wed May 16, 2007 8:59 am

Good point the idea of reclaiming 36 acres of sea in Galway Bay to create berths for cruise liners is even crazier

http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=5145&highlight=galway+cruise+liners
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby Peter Fitz » Wed May 16, 2007 9:24 am

true their photomontage is horiffic stuff but the basic idea to shift Dublin Port is a good one & should happen long term. IF we are to have high rise in this city, they should be confined pretty much exclusively to this area.
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby The Denouncer » Wed May 16, 2007 9:29 am

Originally posted by JL
it's people ranting on about subjects they don't really know anything about and not being bothered to go and do some research.


That's what happens as soon as the weather turns sour! Seriously.
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby schuhart » Wed May 16, 2007 11:40 am

ihateawake wrote: to simply dismiss ireland as a collective pool of ignorance is an easy, unhelpful and unproductive statement.... continue to wallow in <b>your</b> ignorance for as long as you like, but it certainly wont change anything you disapprove of in Ireland
I think you’re addressing the point that you wish I’d made, rather than the point actually made. And at the heart of it, you are simply reacting at an emotional level to the word ‘ignorant’. Why do the PDs come out with a whole load of baloney about their plans for a ‘new heart for Dublin’ while simultaneously participating in a Government that has no commitment to planning in any substantial sense having undermined its own spatial strategy? Its only another example of a more general question. Why is public debate conducted in a language of fantasy?

I’m being deliberately provocative in saying ‘stupid and ignorant’ but it’s not necessarily negative to do that. Nor, sadly, is it so terribly far from the truth if you've heard farmers dismiss concerns about agricultural pollution with the phrase 'there's no progress without dirt'. It puts some necessary focus on mindsets can be changed because the same barrier crops up everywhere. It’s also why, for the sake of argument, necessary reform in the health services has to overcome lots of ‘save our crap local hospital’ campaign.

There might be no short cut. The solution to proper planning in Ireland, along with an array of other things, might actually start with smaller class sizes at primary level, with a view to addressing the problem that the OECD survey revealed about the educational attainment of Irish schoolchildren relative to their peers in other countries. They have above average reading ability, but they can’t think.
mickletterfrack wrote:Schuhart , what are you babbling on about.... what do you mean I stole your lines...
For some reason, I feel you know.
mickletterfrack wrote:theres options on the forum to email or send private msgs if I have offended your delicate sensibilities.
I’m not offended a bit, although I did get a PM from a Mongolian Yak farmer who really took offence at you calling them ignorant.
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Re: The failure of Ireland

Postby JL » Wed May 16, 2007 5:12 pm

Is there really any point in talking about the original topic in abstract temrs like ignorance / lack of ambition / national traits? The discussion will go around in circles if it goes on without dealing with facts or specific issues. Not to mention the fact that people from any of the other countries mentioned as good examples would probably have an equally dim view of things in their own lands - Ireland doesn't hold the patent on cynicism.

Opps! While all this slagging was going on I am sure I saw another opportunity shoot by!

Anyway - I wonder how feasible it would be to turn Dublin into a transition city? From the most recent stats I read I believe that Dublin has a very high standard of dometics recycling compared internationally and spectacular strides have been made on this in the last 3 years. It appears to be a very good news story. One report maintains an increase of 300% in 3 years, while another I read shows a rate I believe to be double the current aspirational rate for London. Can this sort of progress be achieved on other fronts?
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