cork docklands

Re: cork docklands

Postby THE_Chris » Tue May 29, 2007 1:24 pm

Now if the country was well planned, the council would buy up freed land at Tivoli and stick a P&R in there.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby jungle » Tue May 29, 2007 2:50 pm

Maybe a multi-storey next to the rail line, but even that far out, ground-level parking would be a scandalous use of the site.

Now remind me, do we need a site for a conference centre that is located close to the rail line, has easy access to the city's ring road network and is within walking distance (just about:rolleyes: ) of the city centre...
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Pug » Tue May 29, 2007 4:45 pm

jungle wrote:Maybe a multi-storey next to the rail line, but even that far out, ground-level parking would be a scandalous use of the site.

Now remind me, do we need a site for a conference centre that is located close to the rail line, has easy access to the city's ring road network and is within walking distance (just about:rolleyes: ) of the city centre...


ah! indeed, well spotted. Would be good then to put a pedestrian bridge from there over to the other side of the river leading to the large 5 star hotel adjacent to the brand new 35,000 seater multi sports discipline / concert venue formerly known as Pairc Ui Chaoimh (now known as Roy Keane Stadium).
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Re: cork docklands

Postby browser » Tue May 29, 2007 9:37 pm

Pug wrote:ah! indeed, well spotted. Would be good then to put a pedestrian bridge from there over to the other side of the river leading to the large 5 star hotel adjacent to the brand new 35,000 seater multi sports discipline / concert venue formerly known as Pairc Ui Chaoimh (now known as Roy Keane Stadium).


Are you organising the hit on Frank Murphy or am I! (only joking, sort of)
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Pug » Wed May 30, 2007 10:05 am

Pug wrote:go on democracy, looking forward to see which councillors are appointed that we didnt get a chance to vote for .


Digressing from property slightly to prove my point

PJ Sheehans son wants to be appointed as a councillor
Michael McGraths brother Seamus apparently wants to be one and
one of Christy O Sullivans relatives is tipped

never heard of any of them, i think its an appaling rule that they can just get parachuted in
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Re: cork docklands

Postby jungle » Wed May 30, 2007 11:16 am

Pug wrote:Digressing from property slightly to prove my point

PJ Sheehans son wants to be appointed as a councillor
Michael McGraths brother Seamus apparently wants to be one and
one of Christy O Sullivans relatives is tipped

never heard of any of them, i think its an appaling rule that they can just get parachuted in



I can understand the reason for it. The response to a bye-election for a local authority seat is likely to be a very low turnout.

However, I think the system should be like the European elections in that your replacement should be nominated at the time you run. At least that way they have some kind of mandate.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby kite » Wed May 30, 2007 11:46 am

jungle wrote:I can understand the reason for it. The response to a bye-election for a local authority seat is likely to be a very low turnout.

However, I think the system should be like the European elections in that your replacement should be nominated at the time you run. At least that way they have some kind of mandate.



:o Councillors “hand picked” so they would not be a threat to mammy or daddy’s seat in the Dail. Any wonder the Cork Docklands etc is going nowhere fast with that caliber of local representation?
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Pairc Ui Caoimh

Postby browser » Wed May 30, 2007 2:16 pm

I know I'm a broken record on this but this HAS to become a municipal stadium. I'm not saying the GAA should part with it cheaply - they should be properly compensated - but it should then be a municipal stadium which all the various sporting bodies / clubs should lease. And don't give me the economic arguments against it until we've at least done a proper analysis. Suffice it to say I think it could be run at a profit once concerts, hotels etc are thrown into the sporting mix (70% of Croke Park's revenue is non match day related).

There is an article in today's Examiner where Sean Kelly (now of the Irish Sports Council) talks of Ireland hosting sporting events like the Rugby WC or the European Championships in Football in the next 10 yrs. He lists as venues Croke Park, Landsdowne, Maze site in Belfast, Abbotstown (eh?) and Thomand Pk. The fact that Cork, Ireland's most sporting county (both in terms of interest and success - about 50% of the country's greatest sports people are/were rebels inc 4 of the first 5 in an RTE poll at the millenium) doesn't get a mention (for obvious reasons) is a disgrace. I see the City Council gave Frank Murphy an award last month - any chance they could now call in a favour from the Great One?

Ciaran Lynch of Labour proposed a Motion last January calling for a study into the feasability of a municipal stadium. I know Ciaran has moved onto bigger and better things but this Motion needs to be followed up. Anyone any idea where it is at? I've e-mailed Ciaran Lynch already asking him to see that his co-opted successor doesn't lose sight of this issue.

Finally that Examiner article for those interested is as follows:

"Kelly: bring on the big games

IRELAND could host, or co-host, events such as the Rugby World Cup or a European Soccer Championships within the next decade, according to executive chairman of the Irish Institute of Sports, Sean Kelly.

The former GAA president believes that developing sports infrastructure north and south, a mild climate and an improving transport system makes Ireland the ideal location for such showpiece events.

He explained: “We are getting the infrastructures in place. Stadium-wise, we will have the new Lansdowne Road, a stadium at Abbotstown and a possible new development in the Maze in Belfast.

“We also will have a revamped Thomond Park, and the possibility of using Croke Park for other sports, depending on the GAA’s attitude post 2009.

“These are all modern state-of-the-art projects capable of hosting top international events. The key is to have two grounds to take the major games while the other grounds can take lesser matches.

“Given the number of airlines and airports now in existence, the issue of co hosting an event could also be explored.”

Mr Kelly doesn’t see any issues with venues like Thomond Park hosting a soccer game should the need arise.

“Rugby never had a problem with soccer. After all, Lansdowne Road is a rugby stadium first and foremost and then it opened to soccer.

“There were plenty of rugby grounds around the country who opened their doors to GAA clubs when they were in trouble.”

Despite the costs of hosting such events, Mr Kelly is convinced that such tournaments offer a win-win situation for Irish sports and the economy.

“There is massive publicity to be gained from a tourism perspective — just think back to the Ryder Cup.

“Then you have all the hotels, shops and businesses that would benefit. And don’t forget the exposure that the sports themselves would get.”

Mr Kelly continued: “We should be targeting something like this as a long-term strategy. The Department of Sports has a committee set up to look at the knock-on benefits of the Olympics Games in London in 2012 and how we can cash in on it.

“They are planning to get teams to come here on training camps and then try to extend their stays. We as a country are starting to look outwards.

“That committee is a first step in that direction. There are other possibilities like sending some out to France to the Rugby World Cup to make contacts and gain more information about what is required to host a major sporting event.” "
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Re: Pairc Ui Caoimh

Postby mickeydocs » Wed May 30, 2007 3:32 pm

[quote="browser"]I know I'm a broken record on this but this HAS to become a municipal stadium.


Agreeed :)
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Re: cork docklands

Postby PTB » Wed May 30, 2007 8:28 pm

It would be a bit of a disgrace if the second city of Ireland was left out of such a competition.

I remember back to the time when ireland bid with Scotland for the Euro 2008. It was a bit silly considering that the only stadiums offered by Ireland were in Dublin. Also none of the Irish stadia were actually confirmed at the time. Croke Park was not open for soccer at the time. The new Landsdowne was only at the very start of an uncertain building process. Abbotstown was a grandiose pipe dream.

Twould be great to see intermnational matches being played in Cork. And the concerts we could have! U2, Killers, Chris De Burgh, Big Tom - all selling out. Please God I'll live to see the day.
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Re: Pairc Ui Caoimh

Postby kite » Wed May 30, 2007 8:55 pm

browser wrote:
Ciaran Lynch of Labour proposed a Motion last January calling for a study into the feasability of a municipal stadium. I know Ciaran has moved onto bigger and better things but this Motion needs to be followed up. Anyone any idea where it is at? I've e-mailed Ciaran Lynch already asking him to see that his co-opted successor doesn't lose sight of this issue.

"


Ciaran's Motion 13.19; "That Council will undertake a study to explore the feasibility of building a Municipal Stadium in Cork City which would accommodate various sporting bodies & organisations" (07/032) has gone to the Recreation Amenity and Culture Committee.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby corcaighboy » Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:25 am

Report in today's Examiner regarding the Docklands. It might be a good idea if the journalist actually went to Manhattan to check out their skyline before making the somewhat pretentious claim that Cork is about to replicate it. Really, where do they get these notions :rolleyes:


Cork’s docklands eyes a Manhattan skyline


By Eoin English, 08 June 2007
AN iconic tower up to 22 storeys high is one of four soaring landmark buildings proposed in a blueprint that will transform Cork’s south docks into one of Europe’s top waterfront urban quarters.

If built tomorrow, the structure, which has been given the name Iconis Tower as a working title, would be the tallest building in Ireland. A site at the Marina has been identified for it. The other towers have been earmarked for sites on:

Centre Park Road.
Kennedy Road.
The South Docks Quayside.

Together, they would attract international attention to the rejuvenated docks, which will have a Manhattan skyline-style design.

The tower plans are among dozens of exciting recommendations in the long-awaited draft south docks local area plan (LAP) , compiled by consultants Brady Shipman Martin. It will be presented to city councillors on Monday.

It provides the framework for the multi-billion-euro regeneration of the south docks into a high-density urban quarter over the next two decades.

With a LAP already in place for the north docks area, this is the final piece in the jigsaw to guide the redevelopment of the entire docklands region.

The south docks LAP sets a target population of 20,000 and a working population of 25,000 in the area by 2027.

Up to 10,000 homes will be built, which is two-and-a-half times the size of the city’s island area. Most will be built with their main aspects facing south to capitalise on solar energy.

The LAP sets out detailed guidelines for the style and type of apartments. “Confetti-type” residential design, which expresses building uses, will be encouraged. City planners want 30% of the apartments set aside as family units, with a minimum floor area of 90 square metres, 15% set aside for one bedroom units, and 20% of zoned land set aside for part five social and affordable housing.

Between 10% and 14% of space will be set aside for public open space, parks and a boardwalk.

Tens of thousands of square feet of office space, a third-level campus, one secondary and two primary schools, medical facilities, and childcare facilities are also proposed.

The plan calls for preservation plans for the Ford’s complex and the Customs House Quay area.

The Bonded Warehouse building could be converted for interactive uses like galleries, shops and cafes.

And the Odlum’s Building on the south docks should be developed as a flagship cultural project.

At least two bridges should be built — one near the Skew Bridge and one at Water Street — to link the study area to the north docks. A third bridge at Mill Road is under consideration.

Flood protection measures, including raising ground levels, and an early warning system, will be needed to protect the flood-prone area.

However, three Seveso sites (where hazardous material is stored) could affect redevelopment in certain areas, the plan warns.

Topaz Energy, the National Oil Reserves Agency, and Gouldings Fertilizers — all of which have exclusion zones — will prevent the development of high-density housing.

“Their relocation is to be encouraged,” the plan says.

The Port of Cork’s activities will also have to be moved downstream.

Cllr Damian Wallace (FF), chairman of the council’s Docklands Policy Committee, welcomed the LAP.

“Our next task is to prepare a business implementation plan to ensure it can be delivered,” he said.

“Almost €406 million will be needed to deliver key infrastructure. The council is hopeful that a lot of this will be recouped from development charges.”

Cllr Dara Murphy (FG) also welcomed changes suggested to make the bridges open span to ensure boat access up to the city centre.

“This development will change the focus of our city. Now it’s over to the private sector to play their part and come forward with proposals,” he said.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby kite » Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:46 am

[quote="corcaighboy"]Report in today's Examiner regarding the Docklands. It might be a good idea if the journalist actually went to Manhattan to check out their skyline before making the somewhat pretentious claim that Cork is about to replicate it. Really, where do they get these notions :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: "Lankmark"..."Iconic"...etc, are words used over the past 7 years by city management and juncket loving councillors to fool us into thinking that Docklands regeneration is around the corner. Unfortunatly this particurar street (Docklands Street!!!) has more corners than Cllr. Brimingham's Lombard Street proposal for Patrick's Hill, and has fooled most of us for years.
I hope there will be progress before the patience and the money of stakeholders runs out, BUT........
Anyway, i would not blame Eoin English, the mafia want this "talked up" as much as possible so the wheels won't come off the gravy train.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby who_me » Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:47 am

Well, to be honest, it would take a very, very brave developer now to take on a big docklands project in the current property market; with no residential facilities in the docklands, and with the Eglington St. project about to dump dozens of apartments onto the market in a year's time in a much more favourable location.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby PTB » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:03 pm

Has anyone actually seen this plan? Does it offer anything new at all other than hackneyed phrases and suggestions?
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Pug » Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:26 pm

well the Examiner has obviously seen it, if I were a local councillor I wouldnt be thrilled with that in the first place

Much seems to be stating the already stated, Seveso sites need to be moved, possibilituy of landmark towers, what worries me is Damien Wallace coming out with how they now need to have a business implementation plan. How long will that take? why hasnt it been done all the way along? The CCC must have a fair idea of what they want to build there, the only variable is what developers want to build there.

Hopefully the plan states how they actually plan to move the Seveso sites, what resources it will take, how long, what cost and then they go and do it.

I'm not sure about keeping Fords, maybe something about industrial heritage but a waterfront site with the possibility of putting a cafe/restaurant/amenity development there? would be a waste leaving those warehouses there in my opinion. Custom house quays and bonded warehouses certainly should be kept.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby kite » Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:19 pm

South Docks Local Area Plan (Draft, June 2007)

5.3 With regard to ground contamination, landowners are responsible for remediation of their own sites. The above study was only an overview of the situation, to present a scale of the problem and potential solutions. It does not exonerate developers from detailed ground contamination of each site. It will be necessary for each landowner to undertake further detailed studies of their sites, assisted by the findings of the Ground Contamination Report. Remediation will likely take place on a site-by-site basis and collaboration between developers would provide benefits of scale, but will be for each developer to decide.
The detailed study of each site, setting out solutions to ground contamination, will need to be submitted with planning submissions and approval received from Cork City Council.
A potential solution identified in many cases is for filling the site, which also facilitates flood protection and surface water drainage through the raising of ground levels, as identified in Section 4 of this Strategy. Given the potential volumes of fill combined with the possible remediation process which may require licensing by the EPA, it is the view of the EPA that filling and / or excavation and disposal, or on site treatment be controlled and licensed by Cork City Council.

The estimated overall cost of remediation of contaminated ground in the South Docks area is €50 million.


The full report on ground contamination is fairly long, I can post it, or any other section if anybody is interested?
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Pug » Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:28 pm

kite wrote:South Docks Local Area Plan (Draft, June 2007)

5.3 With regard to ground contamination, landowners are responsible for remediation of their own sites. ?


ok - so CCC could surely hint strongly that no planning to be granted to the landowners on any other sites they own in the docklands until they lodge a satisfactory application to start moving the sites? I mean, the CCC arent going to grant planning for anything other than clean up to those sites anyway so why should they affect the landowners around them?
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Re: cork docklands

Postby kite » Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:11 pm

Pug wrote:ok - so CCC could surely hint strongly that no planning to be granted to the landowners on any other sites they own in the docklands until they lodge a satisfactory application to start moving the sites? I mean, the CCC arent going to grant planning for anything other than clean up to those sites anyway so why should they affect the landowners around them?


A clay layer forms the upper natural layer in the South Docks. The area has been raised since the 19th century, first with sludge/dredging material from the River Lee and also with waste and rubble after industrialization in the beginning of the 19th century.

In general the strata in the South Docks are as follows:
• Pavement 0.2 m;
• Fill, a mixture of rubble and clay, 0.5 up to 4 m;
• Clay until 3-5 mbgl, in the Showgrounds until 6.5 mbgl;
• Gravel aquifer, with a depth of more than 25 m in the central part of the South Docks.

Tidal fluctuations in the aquifer result in a 1.5 m difference in groundwater level between high and low tide. Average groundwater flow is perpendicular on the River Lee, dropping around 0.5 m from the southern border down to the River. A hydrogeological model has been prepared which may serve as a basis or tool for several activities including remedial action design, urban water management plans and abstraction calculations for construction works.

The fill layer throughout the South Docks was found to contain contaminants in varying concentrations, often above DIV This is partly due to the use of contaminated materials for level raising and the industrial history of the area (car and tyre manufacturing, electricity production, fuel storage and transshipment). Contaminants that have been detected above DIV include lead, copper, zinc, arsenic, cadmium, mercury, polcyclic aromatics (PAH), and mineral oil. Lead and high PAH concentrations may involve health risks where humans have direct contact with the fill (e.g. gardens).

The most cost-effective method to treat this contamination is to cover the soil with 1 m clean soil, as full cleaning of the fill will be expensive due to its mixed structure. Removal of the fill down to 1m and its replacement with clean material is also acceptable.

Seven zones (in total 8 hectares) in the South Docks are considerably contaminated with oil, mainly in the fill layer. The total polluted volume is estimated to be 105,000m3. The contamination in these zones is generally related to (bulk) fuel storage and transshipment activities. Although oil polluted groundwater was found locally, the aquifer is not significantly affected, as it is isolated from the pollution by a (generally) thick clay layer.

Where this clay layer is thin or absent, adequate measures should be taken. Excavation of the entire fill layer in this instance and its replacement by clean clay of at least 1m is recommended. The clay layer must be repaired where it has been perforated.

Four spots with elevated concentrations (>Dutch Intervention Value DIV) of dichloroethene and/or vinyl chloride have been identified: in the Marina, at the border of Shell/Free Foam, at NORA and at the Ford Vehicle Distribution Centre (Ford VDC). Generally concentrations of these substances above DIV involve health risks in buildings with ground floors, unless ground membranes are introduced in the floor slabs. Likely significant contaminant sources are present in the soil (fill and clay).

Biodegradation assessment and groundwater modeling indicate that where no action is taken, vinyl chloride concentrations in the aquifer would drop below DIV within 21 years. In the clay layer vinal chloride would still exceed DIV after 30 years. Excavation of the pollution source would accelerate sufficient breakdown in the aquifer to 8 years (combined with biological stimulation, breakdown may be reduced to 1 year). A cost efficient method to reduce breakdown time is to ‘pump and treat (in combination with excavation of the source), which would lead to a drop below DIV within 2 years.

VCH contamination is identified as the most hazardous element, demanding further investigation. Attention should be paid to possible VCH contamination below existing buildings and below vulnerable parts in the sewerage system. It may not be necessary or cost effective to remediate all contamination. The preparation of a land management plan is recommended to ensure optimum remediation solutions are identified and implemented.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby kite » Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:26 pm

Here is my prediction for what its worth.
If FF and the Greens go into Government together then it will be RIP to the Cork Docklands redevelopment.
The FF attitude of “the developer knows best” will not wash with the Greens. They will not / cannot allow any form of development (especially residential) on contaminated grounds by hiding the heavy metals etc. under a 1 metre layer of moss peat.

Remember Southpark in Galway?
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0605/primetime_av.html?2255962,null,230

Cork docks could be a hundred times worse.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby jungle » Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:57 am

The docklands can be cleaned up though and it's better to deal with it now than have the problem come back and bite us later.

In theory, a high density brownfield site should be exactly the type of development the Greens like, although I can't help but notice that most greens I know live in rural areas and drive gas-guzzlers.

Regardless, it looks like they won't be in government anyway.



I wonder if we have the same problem out at the pitches on the Carrigrohane Straight?
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Re: cork docklands

Postby kite » Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:45 pm

jungle wrote:The docklands can be cleaned up though and it's better to deal with it now than have the problem come back and bite us later.

In theory, a high density brownfield site should be exactly the type of development the Greens like, although I can't help but notice that most greens I know live in rural areas and drive gas-guzzlers.

Regardless, it looks like they won't be in government anyway.



I wonder if we have the same problem out at the pitches on the Carrigrohane Straight?


That is the problem jungle, the draft report hints at hiding the contamination instead of dealing with the issue, a shortsighted answer that will as you mention, “come back to bite us”
The same problem albeit on a much smaller scale exists on the site of the former landfill site on the Carrigrohane Road. However if litigation were to raise its ugly head there it would not be much of a problem to move a few pitches and our traveler cousins to a safer site.
No easy solution if we turn a blind eye to the dangers in the Billion Euro Docklands redevelopment.

Anyway I think it may be a little academic to speak of Docklands redevelopment at this point as after 7 years of junkets, millions spent on report after report, Port of Cork holding the city to ransom, the latest Brady Shipman Martin draft / report states that;

“Some existing land-uses, e.g. the oil storage facilities and the electricity generating station, may be expected to remain in the area for a considerable time to come and this may place a constraint on the scale, form, location and type of future development”

This statement along with the fact that designation as a Seveso site, means that some restrictions apply to proposed land uses in the surrounding area, as identified by the HSA. While each site will incur differing restrictions, generally, the closer a proposed development is located to a Seveso site, the more land use occupation and density restrictions will apply. New developments will be referred to the HSA within the following distances from a Seveso site:
• Topaz Energy Ltd Site 400m referral boundary
• NORA Slte:300m referral boundary
• Gouldings Fertiliser Site:700m referral boundary and HSA land use zones
High-density residential development is normally not permitted in areas immediately adjoining Seveso sites.

As these sites themselves are considerable in size, particularly the Gouldings and ESB sites any development is likely to be piecemeal.
The only way around this problem again entails a long drawn out process of dealing with redevelopment on a “mini site” by “mini site” basis, where very limited amounts of contaminated soil can be removed from site without licence
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Re: cork docklands

Postby MrX » Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:47 pm

I think Cork's docklands are more likely to be contiminated in a similiar way to other docklands e.g Dublin etc. There was never any major use of heavy metals down there.
I'd suspect there could be big issues with hydrocarbons though on the former dunlop site and some of the fuel storage areas and the power station.

It was also never (as far as I know) used to dump material.

The major risk area for heavy metal contamination in Cork is the former Irish Steel / Irish Ispat site and possibly the Ship yard at Rushbrook too.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Pug » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:21 am

various people seem to have access to extracts of the new South Docklands Area Plan, would anyone have a link to it yet? I assume its not yet on general release.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby kite » Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:22 am

Pug wrote:various people seem to have access to extracts of the new South Docklands Area Plan, would anyone have a link to it yet? I assume its not yet on general release.


The draft is quite large Pug, four sections;
Strategic Environmental Assessment
Infrastructure Stategy
Public Realm Strategy
Local Area Plan

If you need a part of a section posted, let me know.
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