reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches

Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:11 am

From the Longford Leader


St Mel’s Cathedral’s bitter sweet opening


Published on Wednesday 21 September 2011 16:46


On Sunday September 25, an air of chilled awe enveloped St. Mel’s Cathedral as its doors once again opened and over three thousand Longford poeple took the opportunity to survey its scorched interior.


In total, over 3,000 people turned up on the day, giving a clear indication of the depth of feeling about the Cathedral.

Many spoke of celebrations and family events that had taken place in the landmark Cathedral, others just stood back silently and took in the devastation caused by the Chiristmas Day Fire in 2009.

Silently they walked the short narrow gangplank that took them from the western entrance to the eastern exit; a walk that crossed what was once a beautiful and ornate building.

“I’m devastated,” whispered Rose Kenny, a native of Longford town. “I was baptised here and all of this is bringing back memories of Christmas 2009.”


“I didn’t believe that the damage was so extensive,” she said. “All we can do is pray that it will be restored because it was so beautiful.”

Michael Masterson of Dromard, Moyne, was shocked. “It’s shocking to see the scale of everything, but that quickly gives away to the rebirth that’s going on here. There are great people in charge of this project and it’s great to see the work and the attitude that it’s creating around the town.”

Bishop Colm O’Reilly agreed that memories of that fateful day were once again to the fore of many minds. However, he believed that those memories should offer hope on a day such as the open day.

“For those who were here on Christmas Day 2009, it was such a chaotic day and it looked like there being no hope of repair at that stage,” he told the Leader. “A lot is being done and the most important part of the work is done to date. We set a timeline at the start and we’re still on target.”

According to Seamus Butler, chairperson of the St. Mel’s Restoration Committee, the open day afforded the committee the opportunity to show the public just how severe the interior damage was.

“A lot of people will now realise the exterior belies the appearance of the inside. It was absolutely devastated and that devastation is clear as you look around you today,” he said. “We have a massive job ahead of us but we hope to have a functioning cathedral once again by December 2014. We are somewhat daunted by it, but we know we have the goodwill of the people.”


For more pictures and a further report, see this week’s Longford Leader. Alternatively, subscribe to our E-Paper: www.longfordleader.ie/epaper where you can read the entire newspaper on your PC or Mac.
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:10 pm

St Colman's Roman Catholic Trust

The trust fund established as a public company to received and disburse money for the "restoration" of Cobh Cathedral has published its accounts for the year ending 31 December 2010. It makes for sad reading. Not only are funds shrinking, grants from public bodies are evaporating and even the composition of the trust itself is in terminal decline and is now reduced to merely three people - which will soon cause problems finding a public quorum. Saddest of all was departure of Bishop Magee who received a glowing encomium for having founded the Trust.

The details of the crisis may be perused here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/66985880
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:42 pm

Lucinda Lambton on the Palace of Mount Stuart on the Isle of Bute

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKB4firUqhI
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:32 am

Image

Irish Times
FINTAN O’TOOLE

Tall cross at Monasterboice, ninth century

A HISTORY OF IRELAND IN 100 OBJECTS: When hurlers and Gaelic footballers describe their ultimate ambition, they often use a simple shorthand: “A Celtic cross”. Since the late 19th century, the Gaelic Athletic Association has used a high cross for its logo and for All-Ireland medals. The modern use of the cross as a symbol of Irish achievement goes back at least to the 1853 Irish Industrial Exhibition, in Dublin, which displayed them as “fine monuments of the artistic skill and devoted piety of our Celtic ancestors”.

The crosses are so deeply embedded in the Irish imagination that it seems almost sacrilegious to ask why they were made in the first place. There was no native tradition of building in cut stone, so the appearance of high crosses in the eighth century was a major cultural innovation. So, as we have seen, was the idea of depicting, in a relatively realistic way, human subjects and stories. The crosses are, indeed, unique to Ireland and Irish-influenced Scotland. They required a huge investment of skill and resources and, as Roger Stalley has put it, “It is hard to believe they were undertaken for purely altruistic or religious motives.” And yet they were erected on a very large scale: about 300 of them survive, of which 100 are decorated with carved images.

The crosses were undoubtedly used as gathering places for prayers by monks and pilgrims, but their scale and complexity far exceed this basic function. This cross, from Monasterboice in Co Louth, is almost seven metres tall, and every available face is covered with elaborate carvings of a dazzling variety of scenes. The east face alone has Christ walking on the water, King David, St Anthony tempted by demons, St Paul and St Anthony killing a devil, an angel shielding three children in the fiery furnace, and images of Elijah, Moses, Abraham and Isaac, David and Goliath, and David (again) killing a lion.

Some crosses are inscribed with the names of kings or abbots, suggesting that they functioned as potent symbols of the power and status of these dignitaries. Like so many objects from pre-Christian Ireland, part of their function is to claim territory and mark boundaries. It is striking in this regard that the crosses are highly individual, with distinctive styles associated with different regions.

The basic form is common to all of them: a pyramidal base, a rectangular shaft culminating in a capstone, and a large circle enclosing the arms of the cross. This circle may be intended to represent a halo around the figure of Christ, but it can also be seen as a continuation of a much older Irish tradition of representations of the sun.

One way of looking at the crosses, though, is that they represent a new assertion of biblical Christianity in the face of a new pagan threat. By the time the cross-builders were at their most active, that threat was all too real.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Where to see it Monasterboice, Drogheda, Co Louth, 041-9837070; a replica is on display at the Irish High Crosses exhibition at the National Museum – Decorative Arts History, Collins Barracks, D7; museum.ie
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby CologneMike » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:37 am

Image

Vandalised monument returns to Limerick city church

By Owen Hickey (Limerick Leader)

http://www.limerickleader.ie/community/ ... _1_3140737

LIMERICK churchgoers welcomed back a 400-year-old statue of the Virgin Mary to a city church after it was damaged in a vandalism attack in February.

A special blessing of the Our Lady of Limerick statue took place in the Dominican Church on Glentworth Street last Friday to celebrate its return.

The statue is now protected by a glass casing to prevent any repeat of February’s attack.
Fr Jordan O’ Brien expressed his happiness upon seeing the statue return to the church.

“We’re delighted to have it back, as are the people. It has huge historical significance given it came from the first siege of Limerick in 1640.

“The attack was very bad, but the statue is back in its original place and is shrined the same,” Fr O’ Brien said.
In February’s attack, the timber statue – brought to Limerick in 1640 – was pulled off the wall and smashed to pieces.

As the statue is made from timber, as opposed to plaster, it was possible to carry out a repair of the monument.

All the sections of the venerable statue were carved separately. This resulted in the repair procedure being a lengthy process as the pieces had to be worked on separately.

Repairs were carried out on the statue by Randel Hodkinson, of J Hodkinson and Sons Ecclesiastical Decorators, who collected the statue for repair in his Henry Street workshop and restored it to its original condition.

It was the third attack on the religious icon, which was given to Fr Terence Albert O’Brien, Prior of the Old St Saviour’s Church, and survived the persecution during Cromwell’s times.

After being donated to Fr O’Brien, the Our Lady of Limerick statue lay hidden during the persecution - kept watch on by devotees.

The first attack took place when the statue’s neck was cracked after someone tried to topple it with a rope. Shortly after, in 2004, its gold crown and rosary beads were broken off.
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby vkid » Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:44 am

Don't know if this has been up before, Shame to see it left this way
http://www.youtube.com/embed/PLzsQyztVuM

Reportage slideshow (June, 2011) of the (former) Sacred Heart Jesuit Church, Limerick, Ireland.

This iconic building is situated at the Crescent, on O'Connell Street, Limerick, and was completed in 1868 and opened for public worship on January 27th 1869. The architect was William Corbett and the church is in the parish of St Joseph's. According to some reports, it was originally intended to be dedicated to St. Aloysius but when it was formally dedicated in 1869 it was called the 'Church of the Sacred Heart'. The façade of the church is Classical/Grecian in design and was renovated in 1900. There are no aisles in the church but the nave had two rows of pews. The nave was extended in 1919.

The ceiling of the church is panelled with floriated ornaments in Stucco work. The high altar was designed by William Corbett and is made from 22 types of precious marble. On the floor around the high altar, there are the symbols of the four writers of the Gospels. The angel represents Matthew, the lion represents Mark while Luke and John are represented by the bull and eagle respectively.

Some of the stained glass windows throughout the church show the letters 'IHS'. These letters are the first three letters of the Greek word for Jesus which is IHSOUS. In Latin the letters stand for Jesus hominum salvator which translates as 'Jesus, Saviour of men'.

There are nine mosaics above the high altar. The central mosaic is of the Sacred Heart ascending in the presence of St Margaret Mary Alacoque and Blessed Claude la Colombiere. It is surrounded (from left to right) by depictions of St Francis Jerome, St Francis Borgia, St Francis Xavier, St Ignatius, St Stanislaus, St Aloysius, St John Berchmans and St Francis Regis.

Sadly, the church (& residence) formally closed in 2006 and is currently for sale - again! http://www.daft.ie/searchcommercial.daft?id=81592

Photographer: Michael O'Brien (c) June, 2011
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mpobrien
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Fearg » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:19 pm

St Mels Cathedral Longford

First images of what is being proposed for the restoration available on the cathedral's website: http://www.longfordparish.com/cathedralopenday.htm
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:33 am

Repairs were carried out on the statue by Randel Hodkinson, of J Hodkinson and Sons Ecclesiastical Decorators, who collected the statue for repair in his Henry Street workshop and restored it to its original condition.


Congratulations to J. Hodkinson for a job well done!!
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:31 pm

Praxiteles has now had an opportunity of looking at Richard Hurley's proposals for the sanctuary lay-out in St Mel's Cathedral. We take this mock-up to be the plan, or at least the plan as of 18 September 2011:

http://www.longfordparish.com/cathedralopenday.htm

Here we have another classic (indeed literal) example of RH in the process of salvaging the Second Vatican Council from the ashes -again in a certain literal sense. And, here again, we have the same old trite approach that we have all over the place with RH - even down to the signature Japenese trellis work (except split here, presumably to help us distinguish the "solution" from that adapted in Cork.

Then, we have the nonsense of(what seem to be ) banked tiers of spectatorial seating to the right of the sanctuary. Difficult to know what this is for. It would indeed be ironic were its purpose to promote "active participation in the liturgy" since this form of gladiatorial spectatorship surely would only reinforce the old canard that no one participated in the liturgy before the Second Vatican Council with the sole difference of providing seating for the spectators ney gawkers.

The matter of the positioning of the tabernacle has not been addressed and quite obviously little or no notice taken of the recommendations of the second last Synod of Bishops (held only a few years ago) on the subject of the placement of the Tabernacle and reiterated in the post Syndoal Apostolic Exhortation Sacramentum Caritatis.

Then, there is the question of the Altar. Clearly, RH does seem to think that in a neo- Palladian building -albeit rebuilt- that there is absolutely no need whatsoever to pay any attention to proportions. If he did pay attention to proportion between the size of the altar and its immediate environment, Praxiteles cannot imagine why the results were so "off". Size, I am afraid, does matter. Presumably RH can (still) use a measuring tape. But, sic transit Vitruvius Hibernus cineris redevivus !!

Then there is the problem of the praedella. It is not suitable for the altar and its shape more at home in the Antwerp of diamond-cutting. It is not clear what distance is allowed to the front and to the back of the altar between the altar base and the step. No effort has been made to follow the Biblical signicicance of the number of steps. And, I suspect that those at the back of the Cathedral will hardly be able to see the altar. The problem also occurs in the modern make-over in Cologne Cathedral. It is all on the flat. Indeed, it is all a bit too flat and at this stage of time it is beginning to show signs of wear. Please Mr. Hurley, try and come up with something a bit more imaginative.

The tough-fleshed old Phoennix needs to molt and grow a few new feathers!
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Paul Clerkin » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:36 am

Interesting little anecdote

Eamonn told me of a commission he had done some years back for Bishop Magee of Cloyne. A Christ the King figure in bronze to sit atop the cathedral. After the sculpture was complete, cast and patinated, the bishop, just back from Milan, said he had to have the figure gilded (like the one above Milan cathedral). Eamonn explained this would not be possible or practical or inexpensive. In fact, it would cost as much again as the original work. The bishop was adamant. Eamonn went through the procedure that would be necessary involved in gilding the bronze figure. He would have to plate it with nickel, then apply gold leaf; the Irish climate would destroy the gilding in a relatively short time and it would turn black. The bishop still insisted.

The statue was installed, by helicopter. Soon the gold leaf began to peel – and the corroding nickel turned black.

The Vicar General ( a man like the bishop, recently in the news on other matters) demanded a meeting. He explained that he and his boss were unhappy – and that it was likely the matter would end up in litigation.

“Very well, then,” said Eamonn. “My defence is already prepared. I will tell the court that the changes in the statue are God’s judgment on what has been happening in the diocese and, only when these wrongs have been remedied, a miracle would return the statue to pristine gold, showing God’s favour.” He heard no more from the bishop or his minions.

The statue remains black.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opi ... 88630.html
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:53 am

Paul Clerkin wrote:Interesting little anecdote

Eamonn told me of a commission he had done some years back for Bishop Magee of Cloyne. A Christ the King figure in bronze to sit atop the cathedral. After the sculpture was complete, cast and patinated, the bishop, just back from Milan, said he had to have the figure gilded (like the one above Milan cathedral). Eamonn explained this would not be possible or practical or inexpensive. In fact, it would cost as much again as the original work. The bishop was adamant. Eamonn went through the procedure that would be necessary involved in gilding the bronze figure. He would have to plate it with nickel, then apply gold leaf; the Irish climate would destroy the gilding in a relatively short time and it would turn black. The bishop still insisted.

The statue was installed, by helicopter. Soon the gold leaf began to peel – and the corroding nickel turned black.

The Vicar General ( a man like the bishop, recently in the news on other matters) demanded a meeting. He explained that he and his boss were unhappy – and that it was likely the matter would end up in litigation.

“Very well, then,” said Eamonn. “My defence is already prepared. I will tell the court that the changes in the statue are God’s judgment on what has been happening in the diocese and, only when these wrongs have been remedied, a miracle would return the statue to pristine gold, showing God’s favour.” He heard no more from the bishop or his minions.

The statue remains black.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opi ... 88630.html



Another example of just how disastrous the Magee/O'Callaghan/Reidy "restoration" of Cobh Cathedral actually was. If anything the efforts of the "restorers" accelerated the natural decay of the Cathedral fabric by about two centuries. It was not for nothing that all of these characters have received the Will Dowsing prize - and without the expense of a public enquiry!
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:01 am

Here we are, the last being first:

11 Feb 2007 17:30

And here we have a prime candidate for the title of arch-vandal when it comes to the case of the attempted iconoclastic wreckage of St. Colman's Cathedral, Cobh, Co. Cork.

Denis Reidy, parish priest of Carrigtwohill, and the real Poltergeist of the Cathedral wreck scheme - and I use the term in its original sense of a spirit moving inanimate objects. From behind the scenes he has moved a series of inanimate objects not only to recommend but also to champion the lunatic plan proposed by Professor Cathal O'Neill for the superb revivalist interior in Cobh. Reidy is not only overall co-ordinator of the Cobh Cathedral project but also a member of the Cathedral Restoration Committee, the Briefing Committee that "recommended" the wreckage of the Cathedral interior, the Art and Architecture Committee convoked to "rubber stamp" the wreckage (and I cannot understand what qualifies Reidy for this committee since he knows nothing about art and even less about architecture), the St. Colman's Roman Catholic Trust which has been collecting money under charitable pretences for the "restoration" of the Cathedral but has been disbursing them for that purpose, and to add to it all Reidy is a member of that highly eruidite body the Cloyne Historic Churches Committee (aka the HACK) which happily gave an unanimous vote of approval to the proposed wreckage of Cobh Cathedral when proposed by one Alex White and seconded by the Geist himself Reidy.

Reidy's most offensive act was to enter St. Colman's Cathedral in the dead of night and totally oblivious to the sacrednessness of the building proceeded to dig test holes in the floor of the sanctuary with two rude mechanics in a fashion that would probably have been highly approved by Will Dowsing. Needless to say, Reidy had no planning permission for such an act and his friends in the Cobh Urban District Council declined to prosecute him for his vandalism - lest it be seen that they might discourage would be vandals in Cobh!
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:11 am

And here we ahve some more:

15 Aug 2007 07:10

Continuing our amble through the meanderings of Denis O'Callaghan's account of the Cobh Cathedral debacle, as published in his groundbreaking work Hand to Plough, this morning's first offering has the following to say:

"I was privilege to have been entrusted with the role of charing the SPECIALIST group which would recommend an architect for the work {of wrecking the interior of Cobh Cathedral}.".

What we would all like to know is what specialization in architecture does Denis O'Callaghan have - apart form the usual bit of guffing that he goes on with? We certainly know that he has no LITURGICAL specialization. As far as ART is concerend, he has no qualification whatsoever.

This leaves us witrh the prospect of a SPECIALIST group chaired by someone UNSPECIALIZED chairing it. Is its any wonder that everything came to grief.

In the wake of a disaster of these proportions, surely those responsible for the recommendation, including O'C himself, should resign from all diocesan advice groups in the diocese of Cloyne? Obviously, the shipwrecked the bishop by foisting the Cobh disaster on him.
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:14 am

And again:

15 Aug 2007 07:16

And here is another bloomer from O'Callaghan:

"The end result to my mind was superb, an ideal solution in keeping with the character of the cathedral. AS the design plan for the extension to the sanctuary reached forward at a lower level it brought the congregation closer to the altar while providing an unobtrusive view of the original sanctuary as inspiring background".

There is a mouthful of guff.

There is no evidence to suggest that PHYSICAL closeness to the altar assures the ends of liturgy - which, by the way, is worship of God.

As for inspiring backrund.....I ask you. Where does he think he is and what does he think he is up to?

As for the unobstructed view of the sancturay: well just how much of it would have survived his trusty friends from England who were prepared to dig hole in it during the night.
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:20 am

15 Aug 2007 13:09

Some further musings from Denis O'Callaghan and the Cobh Cahedral debacle:

"Eventually the design came before An Bord Pleanala for planning permission".

The use of the word EVENTUALLY in this sentence covers a multitude of unsavoury factors that our author would rather pass over in the deepest silence. As we all know, planning permission is not granted by An Bord Pleanala. Planning Permission is granted by the Local Autority - in this case a very tame and over-coperative Cobh Urban District Council.

The plans to wreck Cobh Cathedral came to ABP because the planning permission so willingly supplied by Cobh Urban District Council was challenged (successfully) by all the major conservation groups in the country and by the Friends of St. Colman's Cathedral - the group that formally requested an Oral Hearing from ABP. It is important to keep the record straight. DO'C just simply cannot recreate a coco version of it.

The use of the word EVENTUALLY also meant that DOC did not have to dwell for too long on the sham "consultation process" that took place AFTER the planning application had been lodged. It also allowed him to skip the bit about a solemn promise made by bishop McGhee to return to the people of Cobh BEFORE doing anything with the Cathedral. It also meant that he need not have to make mention of the lies told in writing to the FOSCC - which were subsequently unmasked at the Oral Heraing.

Using the word EVENTUALLY also meant that DOC did not have to mention anything of bishop McGhee's IMAGINATION that he had APPROVAL from Rome for his plans when, in reality it transpired at the Oral Hearing that he had a letter that barely mentioned the subject and certainly could not be construed as an approval.

Using the word EVENTUALLY also meant that he did not have to mention anything about the dirty tricks unleashed by Jim Killeen on the FOSCC and his attempts to portray them as unlawfully collecting money and of his attempt to to have the police block the FOSCC from collecting funds to pay their legal expenses.

So, there is indeed a lot in a word!
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:26 am

And again:

11 Feb 2007 18:14

For the category of corporate arch-vandals we must present the Trustees of St. Colman's Cathedral, Cobh, Co. Cork:


3. Bishop Magee, well, suffice it to say that it is strange that 30 years of meandering around the painted halls of the Vatican Palace has seemingly not had the slightest effect on him as far as art or architecture are concerned. Apart from trying to wreck Cobh Cathedral he does not have hobbies.
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:29 am

Anyone who has been reading this site over the past five years will not be unfamiliar with the tactics applied in other areas by the terrible duo nor surprised with the results !!
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:12 pm

An interesting photographic collection of churches:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45900477@N ... 76275@N00/
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:00 pm

The department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht has just made a further addition to its "advice series" entitled The Conservation of Places of Worship.

The full text may be viewed on line at this link:

http://www.ahg.gov.ie/en/Publications/H ... ip%20(2011).pdf


Helpfully. it indicates the following:

Editor: Nessa Roche
Series Editor: Jacqui Donnelly
Design: Bennis Design
Cover image by Patrick Donald

Text by: Howley Hayes Architects

Contributors: David Lawrence, Lisa Edden and Edith Blennerhassett
All images are by the authors or DoAHG except where otherwise stated

The book consists of an Introduction, 10 chapters and a Glossary.
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:13 pm

The above mentioned booklet is certainly not at its best on page 70 when we read the following:


Reordering and liturgical change

Just as many churches have been enlarged and altered
over time, so too have they seen liturgical change,
most recently in the Roman Catholic Church since the
Second Vatican Council. In retrospect, the manner in
which some liturgically inspired changes were
implemented since the 1960s and 70s might now be
questioned as many of these changes involved the
removal of fabric and artefacts and, in some cases, loss
of character from historic churches.


There is, however,no doubt that in many cases the objective of bringing
the clergy and the congregation closer together in
more direct communion achieved its aim.
[I shall be writing to the Department to request a footnote from one of the conciliar texts for this assertion] The wish to
reorder churches for liturgical reasons continues.

While under Section 57 (5) of the Planning and
Development Act 2000, a planning authority is
required to respect liturgical requirements when
issuing declarations for a place of public worship that
is a protected structure, all proposals which would
materially affect the architectural heritage require
planning permission. Reordering has the potential to
affect the character of a protected structure.
In order
to ensure that the appropriate balance is struck
between the protection of the architectural heritage
and the need for continued use of the protected
structure as a place of public worship, early
consultation between the planning authority and the
relevant church authority is advisable. There may also
be requirements for diocesan and/or central church
consent to be obtained; in the case of the Church of
Ireland, both diocesan and central church consent is
required.
In 2003, the four main Christian denominations agreed
to establish bodies to provide advice to local church
authorities on matters relating to liturgically-inspired
change. The Roman Catholic Church agreed to
establish Historic Churches Advisory Committees at
diocesan or inter-diocesan level;
the Church of Ireland
set up a Historic Churches Advisory Committee within
the Representative Church Body (which has since
been absorbed into its Property Committee); the
Presbyterian Church in Ireland has a Historic Churches
Advisory Committee based at the Board of Mission in
Belfast, and the Methodist Church in Ireland deals with
these matters through its Annual Conference.
When plans for reordering are under consideration,
it is prudent to talk to all interested parties and
stakeholders, including the architectural conservation
officer of the local authority, to discuss possibilities,
obtain feedback and hopefully to reach a consensus.

Reordering can, at times, be controversial and divisive
at a local, and even national, level.
Sometimes the
changes sought might conflict with the character of a
protected interior. The building works that are most
frequently included in reordering proposals today are
the removal of confessional boxes, altar rails or pews;
enlargement of the dais or predella towards the
congregation; the lowering of altar floors; and the
removal of altar furniture and furnishings from the
main sanctuary, chancel or a side chapel. A degree of
compromise to the historic fabric may be justifiable in
some cases where it brings about an overall
improvement in the way a church functions.

Where reordering is being considered, a concise report
should be prepared by a suitably qualified expert on
the character, importance and condition of the fabric,
furniture and artefacts to be moved or removed to
allow the full impact to be considered. The proposals
should show that the design has been carefully
developed to respond sensitively to the existing
interior and to minimise any adverse effects on the
historic fabric. Alterations which impact on significant
elements of the building should be capable of being
reversed, wherever possible. The report should
illustrate the mitigation measures that are to be taken
to reduce the impact on the character of the interior.
An appropriate location for the storage or reuse of
redundant elements should be identified, preferably
within the church building. At planning application
stage, the supporting documentation should include
copies of correspondence or evidence of support from
the relevant Historic Churches Advisory Committee or
similar body.
Praxiteles
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:23 pm

Can anyone tell me if the Planning and development Act makes any mention of "consensus" when speaking about protected structures? Or, are with dealing here with another adjunct to the act that will require a trip to the High Court for a quashing?

Also, I find the author's reliance on Historic Churches Advisory Committees, aka HACKS, a trifle naive. In the case of the diocese of Cloyne, and especially with regard to the late lamented bishop's personal desire to wreck the interior of Cobh Cathedral, from an enlightened conservation perspective, the Cloyne HACK was about as affective as the Cloyne Child Protection procedures - with the one difference that there was no external supervisory body to expose the HACK's crass cronyism and stupidity.

It came as news to Praxiteles that "reordering is ongonig" and that it might be devisive !
Praxiteles
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:20 pm

The the same document: here we have a beautiful piece of patronising clap-trap derived from a rather outdated 18th century enlightenment idea that somehow or other we know best and the poor stupid public are so stupid that they may be "confused" - building in a similar style might be confusing. Please come into the 21st. century !!

"When designing a new parish centre in the vicinity of
a church, some people believe that the historic style of
the church would be best respected by being copied.
However, copying historic building styles successfully
is problematic
and the architectural style of a new
building or extension does not need to imitate or
replicate the original building in order to be
considered acceptable. Building today in a style that
was popular a hundred or more years ago may detract
from the historic fabric and create confusion in the
perception of both parts of the building
.

Then comes the nanny-state bit: stated in a rare example of proof of the writer's (at least fleeting) aquaintance with the indicative mood!! Praxiteles will not comment on the arch-prizzie use of the Word "respectful" in the following sentence. And then, of course, we have the fascist reference to what are called "values of the present times" leving us with the (confusing?) impression that third rate brutalistic run-down modernism executed by eccentrics has somehow how or other acquired the status of an absolute. Please, please.....

Contrasting but respectful additions to the ensemble are often
more visually and aesthetically successful. Careful
consideration of the palette of materials, the scale and
the detailed design can ensure that the new work
complements the original while reflecting the values
of the present time.
Praxiteles
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:42 pm

Building today in a style that
was popular a hundred or more years ago may detract
from the historic fabric and create confusion in the
perception of both parts of the building.


Praxiteles is just wondering what the implications of that beauty might have been had it been uttered in Italy around 1440-1550? How would it have left Brunelleschi, Bramante, Donatello, Michelozzo, Alberti, Serlio, Palladio, Michelangelo, Raphael..... ?

Now, the advice document we are looking at provides a photograph of the methodist Church in Killarnery with a ghastly awful thing build alongside it by a company called Mott MacDonald Ireland. Unfortunately, they are not advertising this particular outing on their own webpage. They do tell us however that they are putting down a new sewerage syatem for Cork City with lots of pipes out into Cork Harbour. Their site also tells us that they were responsible for the quondam Sheraton Hotel on Fota Island. they even have a photograph:


Image

Praxiteles wonders whether this might not be a more appropriate example of "Contrasting
but respectful addition" to Fota House; and one "more visually and aesthetically successful" for being able to be seen over the mature trees of the Fota estate from about five mile away?
Praxiteles
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:53 pm

And another example of Mott MacDonald Ireland's "Contrasting
but respectful additions to the ensemble" of Patrick's St, Cork in which the those brutal steel pillars and stage lights are "more visually and aesthetically successful".

Image

Thankfully, the rust is working on them and health and safety regulations will soon require their disappearance.
Praxiteles
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Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churche

Postby Praxiteles » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:58 pm

And this, by the way is what Mott MacDonald planked up against the Honan Chapel in UCC


Image

Another example of (what was it?): "Contrasting
but respectful additions to the ensemble are often
more visually and aesthetically successful"

coupled with:

"Careful consideration of the palette of materials, the scale and
the detailed design can ensure that the new work
complements the original while reflecting the values
of the present time".

Just think of the careful consideration given to this when contrasting it (respectfully) with the Honan Chapel !!
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