reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby johannas » Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:58 am

:) 'Mosaic1' , thank you for the information, I look forward with anticipation to the publication of the materials mentioned. Thanks ;)
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:48 am

Stained glass window by Mayer of Munich in Monaghan Cathedral.
And as we cannot enjoy his masterpiece I give you this lovely piece by Peter Turnerelli - Robert Burns Mausoleum.
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Burns Mausoleum By Peter Turnerelli.jpg
Burns Mausoleum By Peter Turnerelli.jpg (18.49 KiB) Viewed 6204 times
Stained Glass Monaghan Apse by Meyer of Munich.jpg
Stained Glass Monaghan Apse by Meyer of Munich.jpg (289.78 KiB) Viewed 6223 times
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby MacLeinin » Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:17 am

Graham Hickey wrote:
The mind boggles how such drastic alterations could be carried out at any time, even the 1970s, and that they be permitted by so many people, not least the church's own congregation. Was there any disquiet at the time.


I don't know about Dublin, but there was great opposition in Carlow as there is now in Cobh, but should the appeals to ABP fail, Bishop Magee and O'Neill et al. will forge ahead irregardless.
I believe if you were to investigate you would find that the congregation of the pro-cathedral were presented with a fait accompli. Also in the 1970's people tended to trust their priests and bishops and would never have contemplated going against them on any issue. This situation has changed and nowadays it is usually the more committed catholics who object to the destruction of their churches/cathedrals. The vast majority are generally too apathetic to bother. Unfortunately many clerics are still living in the past and tend to think that any opposition to their plans is tantamount to perfidy. :(
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:06 pm

Franz Mayer & Co. of Munich who are responsible for stained glass in at least nine of Irelands Cathedral churches (Derry, Thurles, Letterkenny, Ballaghadereen, Waterford, Ballina, Enniscorthy, Carlow, Cobh) is an interesting firm. I found the snippet below on the site for St. Joseph's Cathedral, Dunedin, New Zealand.

"Franz Mayer and Co., Munich. This firm has been working in stained glass from 1848 to the present day. According to Konrad Mayer (fourth generation), Franz Mayer had a school for crippled children. When their schooling finished about the age of fifteen, there were not job opportunities for these children. Franz Mayer founded his Art Studios to provide work for these handicapped children. It is said that at times as many as a hundred young people worked on church furnishings in his studios.
Regarding the windows in St. Joseph’s Cathedral, Dunedin, New Zealand the Franz Mayer and Co. firm state that the stained glass in the fourteen windows is genuine mouth-blown antic glass produced in Bavaria. The colouring of the glass is made by different metal oxides. After the artist has drawn his subject it is transferred on to pieces of glass to match the drawing in detail and colour. There can be as many as four to five hundred pieces in each window. The glass is put into a furnace and the colours thoroughly burnt in. This process results in the colour not deteriorating, and they grow more mellow and beautiful with the lapse of time."

See attached some examples of their work.
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Cobh.Detail of Baptistery window (Mayer & Co.).jpg
Cobh.Detail of Baptistery window (Mayer & Co.).jpg (83.37 KiB) Viewed 6139 times
Cobh Baptistery Window by Mayer & Co..jpg
Cobh Baptistery Window by Mayer & Co..jpg (118.15 KiB) Viewed 6145 times
Cobh Aisle window by Mayer & Co, Moses in the Bullrushes.jpg
Cobh Aisle window by Mayer & Co, Moses in the Bullrushes.jpg (66.52 KiB) Viewed 6150 times
St. Joseph's Cathedral Dunedin NZ 2.jpg
St. Joseph's Cathedral Dunedin NZ 2.jpg (90.23 KiB) Viewed 6178 times
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:14 pm

Franz Mayer is still flourishing in Munich and has branched out to more than glass. All information is available under http://www.mayersche-hofkunst.de .
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:01 pm

The enclosed photograph shows the Chancel of Cobh Cathedral without the temporary altar placed there in the 1970s.
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Cobh Cathedral - interior.jpg
Cobh Cathedral - interior.jpg (56.12 KiB) Viewed 6138 times
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:18 pm

South Transept WIndows of St Colman's Cathedral installed in 1899 by John Hardman of Birmingham with "water themes" appropriate to the window's overlooking the sea:

1. Namaan washing in the Jordan
2. Elisha dividing the Jordan
3. The ark carried through the Jordan
4. The creation of water
5. The passage through the red sea
6. Noah's sacrifice after the flood
7. David pouring out the cup of water to the Lord.
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South Transept WIndow.jpg
South Transept WIndow.jpg (145.21 KiB) Viewed 6141 times
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:30 pm

Hardman of Birmingham windows from Cobh Cathedral.
South Transept - (slightly clearer version)- description provided above by Praxiteles - he just beat me to it. :p
Detail of centre of south Rose window - Mary Star of the Sea.
Detail of window in Blessed Thaddeus Chapel - Death of St. Finbarre at Cloyne
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Detail of window in Blessed Thaddeus Chapel by Early & Co..jpg
Detail of window in Blessed Thaddeus Chapel by Early & Co..jpg (205.28 KiB) Viewed 6096 times
Centre detail of south rose window by Hardman.jpg
Centre detail of south rose window by Hardman.jpg (101.38 KiB) Viewed 6114 times
South Transept window by Hardman.jpg
South Transept window by Hardman.jpg (96.63 KiB) Viewed 6127 times
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:58 pm

Just seen a direct link to this thread from the foscc site in their news section.
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:30 am

For Mosaic 1.

Mosaic from Cobh Cathedral that may be lost plus some detail shots.
The harp symbol in the second attachment signafies that St. Colman was a Bard to the King of Munster.
The third attachment show detail of the mosaic in front of Our Lady's Chapel.
The final attachment show a section of the sanctuary mosaic which it is proposed will be lifted up to allow the dropping of the level of the floor and then relayed. :eek:
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Oppenheimer Mosaic on sanctuary -section.jpg
Oppenheimer Mosaic on sanctuary -section.jpg (94.92 KiB) Viewed 6093 times
Oppenheimer Mosaic detail 2.jpg
Oppenheimer Mosaic detail 2.jpg (81.5 KiB) Viewed 6078 times
Oppenheimer Mosaic detail 1.jpg
Oppenheimer Mosaic detail 1.jpg (88.46 KiB) Viewed 6101 times
Lower Predella by Oppenheimer.JPG
Lower Predella by Oppenheimer.JPG (116.05 KiB) Viewed 6106 times
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:42 am

A view of the West Portal of Cobh Cathedral taken in 1903 before the completion of the statuary.

The ornate wrought iron hinges are by Fagan's of Dublin.

C. W. Harrison and Sons, Dublin are responsible for the tympanum of the West Portal showing the Christ Pantocrator, surrounded by the Four Evangelists, St. Colman, St. Ita, Blessed Thaddeus McCarhy and Bishop Boetius Mc Egan above a range of twelve Apostles.
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Cobh- West Portal -1903.jpg
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:44 am

Some general statistics from the foregoing regarding Ireland's Catholic Cathedrals:

There are 27 Irish Cathedrals of which 19 are in the neo-Gothic Style; 6 are in the neo-Classical Style; 1 is in the neo-Romanesque; and 1 can be classified as other.


The Neo-Gothic Cathedrals are:

Killarney, Cobh, Monaghan, Armagh, Tuam, Letterkenny, Enniscorthy, Kilkenny, Sligo, Ballina, Derry, Loughrea, Limerick, Ennis, Cork, Carlow, Newry, Ballaghadereen, Belfast.


The Neo-Classical Cathedrals are:

Waterford, the Pro-Cathedral, Dublin, Longford, Skibbereen, Cavan, Mullingar.


There is one Cathedral in the Neo-Romanesque: Thurles.

One other Cathedral has been classified as other: Galway.
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby anto » Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:48 am

is athlone not a cathedral?

what is the architecture of the church of ireland cathedral? chistchurch and St. Patrick's eetc? largely victorian now since restoration?
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:04 am

Image
Athlone Cathedral ?
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:17 am

If I recall correctly, the town of Athlone is divided between the dioceses of Elphin on the western bank of the Shannon; and Ardagh and Clonmacnoise on the eastern bank. The cathedral for the former is in Sligo and that of the latter in Longford.

Concerning the Cathedral churches of the Church of Ireland, in general, these are the pre-reformation Cathedrals whose replacement after Catholic emancipation in 1829 gave rise to the spate of building of Catholic Cathedrals. However, as you mention in the case of Dublin, not all of the original Cathedral buildings retained their original outlines for a variety of resons (war, abandonment, refurbishing, the rise of the neo-classical and of the neo-gothic, changes of diocesan boundaries) but survivors might be seen in St. Canice's in Kilkenny, St. Mary's in Limerick or St. Flannan's in Killaloe. Perhaps the worst victim was the Cathedral on the rock of Cashel which had its roof stripped off in the 18th century when a small replacement in the classical style was built in the town of Cashel. In stark contrast to the Catholic Cathedrals of Ireland, these buildings (at least since the 16th century) have not been subjected to the kind of liturgical vandalism that has seen the ruination of all of the neo-Gothic Catholic Cathedrals,except one (Cobh), the only neo-Romanesque in the country (Thurles) and two of the finest of the neo-classical ones (Dublin and Longford).

I hope to post some more statistics on the subject shortly.
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:26 am

The photograph in 164, I think, shows Sts. Peter and Paul's parish church in the Elphin part of Athlone.
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:32 am

Finally worked out how to do this, so watch out. Lots of pics!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) :) :)

Image

The magnificent pulpit by Beakey of Dublin.
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:35 am

Sorry guys, looks like I got it wrong again. :( :mad:
This is what I was hoping to put on the page.
The magnificent pulpit by Beakey of Dublin.

Or maybe not????
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Pulpit.jpg
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:00 am

The attachment contains a scan of G.C. Ashlin's original drawings (1894) for the Pulpit in Cobh Cathedral.
Attachments
Cobh Cathedral - Ashlin's design for Pulpit (1894).jpg
Cobh Cathedral - Ashlin's design for Pulpit (1894).jpg (126.36 KiB) Viewed 6111 times
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:15 am

This attachment contains a scan of G. C. Ashlin's drawing for the Baptismal Font. The cover was not executed as planned.
Attachments
Cobh Cathedral - Ashlin's design for the Baptismal Font.jpg
Cobh Cathedral - Ashlin's design for the Baptismal Font.jpg (110.82 KiB) Viewed 6093 times
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:31 am

Image

Nave looking to Chancel arch and Sanctuary. :)
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:40 am

Unusual angle.

Image

Aerial VIew

Image
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:08 pm

Praxiteles wrote:
Concerning the Cathedral churches of the Church of Ireland, in general, these are the pre-reformation Cathedrals whose replacement after Catholic emancipation in 1829 gave rise to the spate of building of Catholic Cathedrals. However, as you mention in the case of Dublin, not all of the original Cathedral buildings retained their original outlines for a variety of resons (war, abandonment, refurbishing, the rise of the neo-classical and of the neo-gothic, changes of diocesan boundaries) but survivors might be seen in St. Canice's in Kilkenny, St. Mary's in Limerick or St. Flannan's in Killaloe. Perhaps the worst victim was the Cathedral on the rock of Cashel which had its roof stripped off in the 18th century when a small replacement in the classical style was built in the town of Cashel.

St. Canice's Kilkenny
Image
St. Mary's Limerick
Image
St. Flannan's Killaloe
Image
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Mosaic1 » Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:11 pm

Dear G.

Many thanks for those images, which are very helpful.

regards,

M1
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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:13 pm

Rock of Cashel.
Image

Image

Image
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