reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:44 pm

#124 Found these nice photos of stained glass in Ballina. :)
Attachments
Sained glass Ballina.jpg
Sained glass Ballina.jpg (47.98 KiB) Viewed 4697 times
Stained glass Ballina 2.jpg
Stained glass Ballina 2.jpg (86.22 KiB) Viewed 4722 times
Stained glass.jpg
Stained glass.jpg (78.8 KiB) Viewed 4708 times
Gianlorenzo
Member
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:36 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:44 am

St. Aidan's Cathedral, Enniscorthy, Co. Wexford was built to plans drawn by Augustus Welby Northmore Pugin (1812-1852). It was one of a series of commissions obtained through the patronage of the Countess of John, sixteenth Earl of Shrewsbury, whose uncle, John Hyacinth Talbot was patron of the re-building of Enniscorthy church. Writing from Alton Towers to Talbot at Ballytrench on 14 May 1843, Pugin presented his plan for the a new church in Enniscorthy which would be build and "perfectly done by degrees ...and make a glorious church". He suggested "pulling down the farthest compartment of the present church and moving the altars....so that the whole of the present nave would serve for the church while this was being done" (Belcher, Collected Letters vol.II, p.52). With the completion of the chancel, and trancepts by 1846 and the nave build over the existing church, the original church was demolished in 1848. A central spire was finished in 1850 but subsequently rebuilt by JJ MCCarthy. While the building of St. Aidan's opened new opportunities for Pugin, they were not however realised. Writing of Enniscorthy in 1850 he says. "There seems to be little or no appreciation of ecclesiastical architecture amongst the clergy. The cathedral I built at Enniscorthy is completely ruined. The bishop has blocked up the choir, and stuck an altar under the tower!!...it could hardly have been treated worse had it fallen into the hands of the Hottentots....It is quite useless to attempt to build true churches , for the clergy have not the least idea of using them properly. There is no rood screen as intended by Pugin. The High Altar was added by Pearce and Sharp to the designs of JJ McCarthy in 1857. The east window is probably by Hardmans of Bermingham to the designs of Pugin. Later glass is by Lobin of Tours and Mayer. A first modern reordering took place in the 1970s when a large granite altar was place under the corssing. This was replaced in 1996 in a more sensitive restoration of the building which saw a return of the original stenciling work. The 1996 Enniscorthy reordering was important for it signalled a change in reordering that exhibited a greater sensibility ot the integrity of the original contexts into which new elements were introduced. A similar approach would subsequently be taken to the more irretrievable situation of Armagh Cathedral. Several of the original fittings were returned to Enniscorthy and its original ceramic tiles restored but the installation of a victorian tantulus to serve as an ambury was, with hindsight, perhaps a little too iconic and its classical allusion all too poignant. The centrally sited sedilia gives the impression of nothing more than a modern carver. There are no choir stalls. Sheridan Tierney were architects for the 1996 restoration.
Attachments
Enniscorthy 3.jpg
Enniscorthy 3.jpg (85.05 KiB) Viewed 4700 times
Enniscorthy 2.jpg
Enniscorthy 2.jpg (64.58 KiB) Viewed 4701 times
Enniscorthy 1.jpg
Enniscorthy 1.jpg (52.25 KiB) Viewed 4714 times
Praxiteles
Old Master
 
Posts: 6044
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:02 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby johannas » Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:08 am

Does anyone know where one can obtain any published works on Ludwig Oppenheimer or of his firm. Thanks.
johannas
Member
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:23 am

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby johannas » Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:19 am

Has anybody seen or mentioned Holy Trinity in Cork City ------ what a disaster. Fortunately St. Peter's and Paul's in Cork City seems to have escaped all vandalism so far! Has anybody pictures of Holy Trinity in Cork City before the vandals got in?
johannas
Member
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:23 am

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby descamps » Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:11 pm

All you theorists should take a good look at the http://www.sacredarchitecture.org/pubs/saj/books/index.php
descamps
Member
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:06 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby sangallo » Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:46 pm

The trip through Irish Cathedrals, courtesy of Praxiteles and co., has been absolutely fascinating. There is no doubt that Cobh (prior to wreckage) stands head and shoulders above the others in terms of architectural excellence and attention to detail. Monaghan leaves one wondering when the diving board is going to be installed. All credit is due to Archbishop Brady for removing the dinosaur tooth in Armagh - he has gone some way towards recuperating the situation. Killarney externally is a beautiful building, reminding one of Salisbury, but alas the Isaurian (Eye-sore-ian?) dynasty, beloved of Praxiteles, has done untold damage within.
Nobody seems to have dealt with Dublin as yet, but I think it is most pertinent to the Cobh situation, as the Great Professor O'Neill is also involved here. How is it that an architect who generally builds railway stations, public offices and the likes, and claims to be inspired by classical models, could have been chosen for a Neo-Gothic building, for which, I gather, he has little sympathy? Poor Turnarelli - his high altar in Dublin's Pro-Cathedral has been atomised, echoing a similar approach to Della Porta's altar in Thurles.
It is interesting that the Great Professor does not mention either the Pro-Cathedral or Cobh Cathedral among his "achievements", accomplished or planned, on his website. Why the uncharacteristic reticence? After all, he seems very proud of the refurbishment of Drogheda railway station and the chaplaincy building in UCD with its rather strange spiritual space, suggestive of an encounter between the Buddha and the Goban Saor!
sangallo
Member
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:26 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:20 pm

descamps wrote:All you theorists should take a good look at the http://www.sacredarchitecture.org/pubs/saj/books/index.php


Thanks dechamps. Great articles on this site. :)
Gianlorenzo
Member
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:36 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby sangallo » Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:21 pm

Recently I had occasion to visit the website of the Friends of St Colman's Cathedral. I would recommend it to the visitors to this thread. The mounting of the planned reordering on their site leaves little to the imagination, although I do wonder how the Archdeacon and the other prebenderies, resplendent in cremosin and rabbit fur, are going to be able to chaunt the canticles and antiphons in stalls which the Great Professor O'Neill proposes to reduce to little more than a set of antiphonal chicken perches hovering precipitously over the abyss. This is another example of the functional knock-on effects of his proposals on the building.
I wonder at the abandonment of the traditional liturgical symbolism of life's journey from baptism at one entrance, progressing through the other sacraments, culminating in the Eucharist at the altar, to exit via the mortuary chapel. Is it not strange that the planned reordering of Cobh does not take into account the importance of symbol, rightly emphasised by any liturgist with a modicum of Wissenschaft?
sangallo
Member
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:26 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby MacLeinin » Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:16 pm

Another very interesting aspect of the Cobh Cathedral project is that no one seems to know how much it is all going to cost. From what the local parishioners were told at a meeting to display the plans, it would appear that the application for planning permission was sought without any idea of how much it would cost. Is this usual practice in these circumstances?
MacLeinin
Member
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: Co. Cork

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:22 pm

sangallo wrote:.... the chaplaincy building in UCD with its rather strange spiritual space, suggestive of an encounter between the Buddha and the Goban Saor!


Here are a couple of photos of said building. :eek:
Attachments
chaplaincy2.jpg
chaplaincy2.jpg (24.8 KiB) Viewed 4693 times
chaplaincy1.jpg
chaplaincy1.jpg (11.48 KiB) Viewed 4691 times
Gianlorenzo
Member
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:36 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:24 pm

Have you one of the "spiritual" space?
Praxiteles
Old Master
 
Posts: 6044
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:02 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:34 pm

Praxiteles wrote:Have you one of the "spiritual" space?


This is all I could find - it is called the Contemplation Room. Not sure if that qualifies as 'spiritual' space!!!!!
Attachments
contemplationroom.jpg
contemplationroom.jpg (67.81 KiB) Viewed 4686 times
Gianlorenzo
Member
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:36 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby sangallo » Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:40 pm

Always happy to oblige. Here are two more.
Attachments
The Spiritual Space2.jpg
The Spiritual Space2.jpg (23.43 KiB) Viewed 4677 times
The Spiritual Space1.jpg
The Spiritual Space1.jpg (13.48 KiB) Viewed 4691 times
sangallo
Member
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:26 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:44 pm

Thanks Gianlorenzo and Sangallo for the pics.

I am illuminated and purified!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Praxiteles
Old Master
 
Posts: 6044
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:02 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:46 am

Can anybody tell me how can a 'space' be spiritual???
Gianlorenzo
Member
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:36 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:49 am

I am sure the Great Professor knows all about vis locativa and will be more than happy to explain - on application.
Praxiteles
Old Master
 
Posts: 6044
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:02 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:04 am

The Cathedral of the Assumption, Carlow, was begun in 1826 to plans drawn for the patriot Bishop James Doyle (aka JKL) by Joseph Lynch, eventually replaced by Thomas Cobden. The Cathedral is more a large parish church done in the neo-Gothic idiom, allegedly influenced by the Town Hall in Bruges. The building cost the considerable sum of £9,000 and was opened for public worship in 1833 but not consecrated until 1933. It has a simple interior approached through a columned gallery, the shallow transepts divided from the nave by narrow clustered columns. "The result was the clearest view of the high altar in any Irish cathedral". The magnificent (demolished) wooden pulpit was designed by M.J.C. Buckley and carved in Bruges in 1898. Its canopy survives as shelter for the (liturgically) misplaced baspismal font. The glass is by Mayer of Munich. The (vanished) Choir Stalls were by Cobden. The Cathedral contains a fine statue of JKL by John Hogan. In 1997, following a High Court case and an arbritration process and in the face of widespread public opposition -remarkably unheeded in the age of the laity- a brutal reordering of the interior was mitigated to some degree. The High Altar survived but relegated to redundant remoteness in favour of a disproportioned altar raised on the inevitable projection into the nave. Prissy trellis work chairs replaced the Choir Stalls along both walls of the chancel. It is not clear what purpose these can possibly serve. The Throne has, yet again, been moved forward and parked against a column - at the liturgically incorrect side of the chancel and altar. A grand piano has strayed into the formula. Although a relief from the hackneyed use of the same formula, it has gone unnoticed that pianos are liturgically excluded from Catholic churches since Pius X's motu proprio Inter sollicitudines of 1903. With the reordering of the interior in Carlow, it may not have been noticed by the architects that the great dramatic gesture of Hogan's JKL has acquired an altogether new significance - an example of transignification - for he now gestures at their work. Perhaps Eirn's dejection is more contextual than may have been realized.
Attachments
Carlow 3.jpg
Carlow 3.jpg (14.68 KiB) Viewed 4689 times
Carlow 2.jpg
Carlow 2.jpg (68.19 KiB) Viewed 4730 times
Carlow 1.jpg
Carlow 1.jpg (30.16 KiB) Viewed 4694 times
Praxiteles
Old Master
 
Posts: 6044
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:02 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:11 am

#127

Some stained glass from Enniscorthy.
Attachments
6southwindow.JPG
6southwindow.JPG (102.18 KiB) Viewed 4681 times
9westwindow.JPG
9westwindow.JPG (46.45 KiB) Viewed 4673 times
10eastwindow.JPG
10eastwindow.JPG (141.05 KiB) Viewed 4670 times
Gianlorenzo
Member
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:36 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:54 am

Lest we forget what started all this.

A few more shots of St. Colmans from the foscc site.
Attachments
Tympanum.jpg
Tympanum.jpg (64.09 KiB) Viewed 4639 times
Cross.jpg
Cross.jpg (59.27 KiB) Viewed 4669 times
Gianlorenzo
Member
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:36 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Mosaic1 » Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:54 pm

johannas wrote:Does anyone know where one can obtain any published works on Ludwig Oppenheimer or of his firm. Thanks.


Dear Johannas,

So far, we (the group researching the firm of Oppenheimer) have been unable to identify any published work on the firm. The only material seems to be the reference already mentioned earlier in this thread. We have identified 2 company catalogues, unpublished in art-historical terms, which will be published in due course with a narrative on the company, the people, the little surviving archival material as well as an inventory of their known works. Because this is a collective effort, you'll appreciate that I cannot post this material yet.

Any information that contributors can offer about Oppenheimer Ltd. and their works would be very gratefully received.

Kind regards,

'Mosaic1'
Mosaic1
Member
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:23 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:34 pm

Oppenheimer mosaics from Honan Chapel. :)
Attachments
Honan Chapel Mosaic detail- sea creature.JPG
Honan Chapel Mosaic detail- sea creature.JPG (104 KiB) Viewed 4674 times
Mosaic Honan Chapel -east end of Nave.JPG
Mosaic Honan Chapel -east end of Nave.JPG (35.32 KiB) Viewed 4646 times
Mosaic Honan Chapel - Chancel floor.JPG
Mosaic Honan Chapel - Chancel floor.JPG (47.21 KiB) Viewed 4686 times
Gianlorenzo
Member
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:36 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby MacLeinin » Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:59 pm

Praxiteles wrote: "There seems to be little or no appreciation of ecclesiastical architecture amongst the clergy. The cathedral I built at Enniscorthy is completely ruined. The bishop has blocked up the choir, and stuck an altar under the tower!!...it could hardly have been treated worse had it fallen into the hands of the Hottentots....It is quite useless to attempt to build true churches , for the clergy have not the least idea of using them properly. A.W.N. Pugin


I wonder what Pugin would have to say about our current crop of ecclisiastical Hottentots ;)
MacLeinin
Member
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: Co. Cork

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Peter Parler » Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:45 am

Re #147: "Hottentot" was apparently a Boer dialect word for "stutterer". The Oxford Dictionary of South African English nowadays condemns it as offensive. Interestingly enough, though, the Khoikhoi - their own name for themselves, meaning the "people-people" - were moon-worshippers. Their merry moon dance would have graced perfectly the new interior of Carlow Cathedral (#142), grand piano and all - but they too, alas, have been the victims of a ruthless "modernity".... See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khoikhoi
Peter Parler
Member
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:30 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:46 am

The Pro-Cathedral Church of the Conception of the Virgin Mary was built on the site of Lord Annsley's town house at Marlborough Street and Elephant Lane, which had been acquired by Archbishop Thomas Troy in 1803 for £5,100. The building commenced in 1814 and was completed in November 1825. Plans for a church in the revivalist Greek Doric style, submitted by an architect who signed himself "P", won the commission. It is accepted that the architect was George Papworth (1781-1855). Born in London, he moved to Ireland in 1806, and won commissions for Grattan Bridge, King's (Heuston) Bridge (1828), Camolin Park, Wexford (1815), the Dublin Library in D'Olier Street (1818-1820) and Sir Patrick Dunn's Hospital and was eventually Professor of Architecture in the Royal Hibernian Academy. The Pro-Cathedral contains monuments to Cardinal Paul Cullen and his immediate predecessor Archbishop Daniel Murray by Thomas Farrell. The apse is decorated by an alto-relief of the Ascension by John Smyth. Thomas Kirk (1781-1845) supplied a monument for the Reverend Thomas Clarke: two figures of Religion and Charity bewteen an urn which was his first exhibited work at the Society of Artists (as Piety and Chastity) in 1813. A relief of the Good Shepherd and a monument to William and Anne Byly are also attributed to Kirk. The organ is by the Dublin organbuilder John White. Its present architectural case was build by WIlliam Hill c. 1900. The great artistic treasure of the Pro-Cathedral, however, was the High Altar by Peter Turnerelli (1774-1839). Born in Belfast, Turnerelli had been deeply influenced by Canova (who much admired Turnerelli's bust of Grattan (1812). From 1798-1803 drawing master to the princesses of George III, he was appointed Sculptor in ordinary in 1801. While his busts of George III, Washington and Wellington (1815), Louis XVIII (1816), Henry Grattan (1812 and Daniel O'Connell (1829) are well known, his master piece was the High Altar of the Pro-Cathedral with its splendidly proportioned mensa, reredos and ciborium. In 1886, rather incongrously, three stained-glass windows were installed behind the High Altar. Archbishop Dermot Ryan introduced a reordering to the Pro-Cathedral in the late 1970s. The architect for the re-ordering was Professor Cathal O'Neill . In an act beggering civilized belief, he demolished Turnerelli's High Altar and reredos. The praedella of the altar mensa was salvaged and re-used to form a new altar erected on a lower plain in a hum drum extended sanctuary covered with carpet. The neo-classical altar rails were removed. The canopied and dignified neo-classical Throne was dismantled. The pulpit was reduced to the redundancy of a side aisle and a few surviving vestiges of the High Altar scattered about the interior. The Ciborium of Turnerelli's High Altar was conserved and placed on a squat disproportioned plinth on a lower plain. The result has been the complete loss of the graceful, proportioned, symetrically articulated dimensions of the Apse and of the building itself which now lacks a central focus and suffers from the same focal void as Longford and Thurles. It seem strange that nobody seems to have realized that the High Altar was custom built to a location it occupied for 150 years. Attempts to relieve the focal void by drapery have not been convincing. It is suggested that at the time of the reordering, the significance of the High Altar and its provenance may not have been known to the architect responsible for its demolition. In Irish circumstances, the destruction of such a major work of art may possibly have cultural significance not too dissimilar to the bombing of Monte Cassino or the feuerblitzing of the Frauenkirche in Dresden.
Attachments
Peter Turnerelli.jpg
Peter Turnerelli.jpg (9.59 KiB) Viewed 4666 times
DubPro6.jpg
DubPro6.jpg (84.79 KiB) Viewed 4666 times
Dublin 2.jpg
Dublin 2.jpg (84.31 KiB) Viewed 4654 times
Dublin 1.jpg
Dublin 1.jpg (48.69 KiB) Viewed 4666 times
Praxiteles
Old Master
 
Posts: 6044
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:02 pm

Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby GrahamH » Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:27 am

It is without doubt the loss of the High Altar that so destroyed the interior of the Pro-Cathedral.
You have the great line of Doric columns marching into the distance, building up the tension and heightening expectation, then they powerfully sweep around at the western end, terminating the vista by enclosing.......well.......nothing.
It's such a let down.

The mind boggles how such drastic alterations could be carried out at any time, even the 1970s, and that they be permitted by so many people, not least the church's own congregation. Was there any disquiet at the time Praxiteles do you know?
The altar rails look magnificent too - so befitting of a classically inspired church :(

One niggly thing that's always annoyed me about the Pro is the little circles with gold crosses painted on them half-way up every column. They look finicky and inappropriate, an unnecessary detail so typical of Catholic churches - features that are for the most part appealing in a strange way - but here they detract from the power and drama of the columns, especially around the sanctuary.
It is the bold architecture of the Pro-Cathedral that makes it what it is - there is no need for applied decoration.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland