Luas Central - Which Route?

Luas Central - Which Route? I would prefer...

Route A
114
37%
Route B
127
41%
Route C
25
8%
Route D
27
9%
Route E
14
5%
 
Total votes : 307

Re: luas central corridor

Postby GrahamH » Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:15 pm

There's mixed signals coming out here - is the idea to physically link the Green line with the Tallaght line, or just to bring them close together - with the Green trams looping round O'Cll Monument and go back the way they came?
If the latter is the case, which I thought it was, this scheme is nothing short of ridiculous and hugely wasteful of public money if it's simply to bring people closer to the other line. It's about 8 mins walk from the Green to here. The trams would take at least 3 anyway.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby zozimus » Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:31 am

Anyone remember why the green line was prevented from coming across the liffeyl? It was Garrets campaign in the Irish Times where he 'worked out' that the numbers didn't add up, and people believed him. Bit like the 'madness' of running the red line through the Red Cow.

With the news of Bewleys closing coupled to this It's been a bad month for our ex-Taoiseach.

FWIW I think they should link up. It's okay saying that it's only a short walk, but if you have to do it twice a day five days a week driving becomes much more attractiive.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby Rory W » Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:48 pm

No it was Mary O'Rouke giving into the likes of the AA rather than Garrett's Measuring tape & numbers thing (which he denies doing anyway)
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Re: A letter in today's Times:

Postby Rob Kelly » Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:26 am

[quote="vinnyfitz"][/QUOTE]
I am very interested in your idea to take LUAS thro Trinity have you looked at options through the grounds, I believe Trinity are planning a major re-developemnt of the North entrance onto Pierse etreet this includes taking down 6 terraced Victorian houses on Pierse Street

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Re: luas central corridor

Postby PVC King » Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:26 pm

Joining of Luas lines
05 Nov 2004

"Join the lines as soon as possible’ say Dublin City Businesses

The Dublin City Business Association (DCBA) has welcomed the announcement from Minister for Transport, Mr. Martin Cullen T.D. on his intention to join up the Luas lines and has called for its progression as soon as possible.


The significant impact of the Luas on business in the city centre is demonstrated by the increase in customer volumes since the operation of the Southside and Northside Luas.

The popularity of Luas is attracting new customers to the city centre and this is a very encouraging illustration of the success of government policy on transport. “We are delighted that the Minister is pursuing this and would encourage him to progress it as a matter of urgency. It is obvious that the public wants it joined up.” Said Tom Coffey, CEO of the DCBA.

Dublin City Centre accommodates 250 million visitors each year and although access has improved significantly through Quality Bus Corridors, extra bus capacity, cycle lanes etc. the DCBA believes that the public transport service needs to be effectively integrated and expanded. “We are disappointed by the performance of the Dublin Transport Office in delivering an adequate public transport system for the needs of the city as it is now.

Its performance needs to be reviewed and, where relevant, the organisation needs to be reformed and made more accountable. Dublin is a great city and needs an effective public transport service to reach its full potential. Plans without effective and on time implementation are not much use to the public.”

The DCBA is the representative organisation for city centre retailers and property owners. Collectively its members employ 25,000 and contribute in excess of €400 million annually to the Exchequer. "

Article Ends

http://www.dcba.ie/press/index.cfm?id=278

Any thoughts?
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby ewanduffy » Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:27 pm

How about from the current Line B terminus, around in front of the Shelbourne, along Hume Street, Ely Place and down Merrion Street/Merrion Square, Westland Row, Lombard Street and then either a new bridge across the Liffey or continue up to O'Connell Street and cross there.

Such a route would also have the advantage of running right in front of the Dept of Finance in Merrion Street, allowing the public to show the beancounters therein that the public prefer rail based transport to their preferred option of buses :D
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby GrahamH » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:18 pm

7/7/2005

Agreed that the if the Luas link discussion should be moved eleswhere - perhaps here is more suited.
And just as this is a public transport thread, perhaps it is appropriate to acknowledge the day's shocking events in London - our thoughts are with the people of our neighbouring capital.

jimg wrote:it is nonsense to suggest that I am being "incredibly disengenious" to include short journeys in my calculation. I did it for simplicity and in actual fact it understates the advantages of having a linked up system. If you restrict the analysis to longer journeys, the relative advantages of integrating the system actually increases. For example, if you only consider journeys of five stops or greater in length, then there are almost THREE TIMES as many journeys possible on the linked up system.

I can't believe that people are refusing to accept this? It's almost an axiom of transport systems that when you increase integration, the utility of the entire system increases. Imagine what trains/the DART would be like in Dublin without the loop-line bridge (ah sure, it's only a twenty minute walk from Connolly to Pearse!). Imagine the London Underground if they hadn't developed every opportunity to provide interchanges between lines where they come close to each other.

jimg wrote:There are a number of active "fronts" in the discussion...the one I see to be most active in is the question of the utility of integrating the system. Whether the green line is extended via O'Connell St or any other route does not have a huge bearing on my argument in that regard. Obviously if you don't see any value in joining the two lines, the question of route is almost moot. Also if you see no utility in joining the lines, then any aesthetic cost (or financial cost for that matter) associated with doing so will seem excessive.


Agreed jimg with much that you say - a point well made about the Loop Line. Saying that, I do point out that my objection to the cost and potential aesthetic damage of this link is that there doesn't seem to be sufficient utility derived if it goes solely to O'Connell Street.
I appreciate that it brings you right up to the Red Line and so in that way offers greater integration, but unlike the Loop Line, it does not offer full integration allowing you to travel continuously, nor does it allow the efficient moving of rolling stock from one line to another. Having to get off in O'Connell Street and walk over to the Abbey Street stop and wait for another tram for a potentially very limited amount of people in itself generates inconvenience.

I'm not sure how you can rate these various elements and come up with a winner, and I do not deny that this link would indeed be hugely convenient for people as a handy way of getting to the northside and back - but not much faster.

I know this is really going around in a circle because the central issue as you say Jim is the utility derived - and of course we don't even know if the terminating-at-O'Cll St concept is even a runner on the part of the relevant authorities.
Just the aesthetic issue I feel consitutes a substantial element in this proposal, and along with the vast financial factor, and the greater transport needs of the capital at a time of great pressure on public funds for competing infrastructural projects, that this link is not a priority and the Luas could be better integrated and the public better served with an alternative cross-Liffey route.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby PVC King » Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:07 pm

It would probably be best to see the six routes under consideration before making ones mind up.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby JPD » Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:32 am

I read in todays Irish Times that the Ten Year Capital plan is being held up 'by the evil economists' in the Department of Finance well those are Tim O'Briens words in the Irishmans Diary section.

Will the routes be made public or for the Ministers eyes only?
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby PVC King » Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:14 pm

[quote="SBP"]

Originally Posted by Sunday Business Post
Six Luas link-up routes proposed

31 July 2005 By Niamh Connolly
Six possible routes linking Dublin's two Luas lines will be released to the public for consideration in September, according to the Rail Procurement Agency (RPA), the state body responsible for the city's tram system.

The Minister for Transport, Martin Cullen, is expected to bring to cabinet in the autumn plans for a €]

Is this article authentic?
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby weehamster » Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:47 pm

Image
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby PVC King » Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:55 pm

It would appear that the RPA have binned Dick Gleeson's figure of eight without even costing it, I do not feel it is such a good idea to treat the relevant Local Authority with such contempt.

There has been some good discussion on http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=274229&page=5&pp=20 and http://www.platform11.org on this subject.


I am not so sure that there is consensus on the impact of the wirescape on College Green as of yet on this forum and because there are only two options being pushed by the RPA on this I think we should try and see if a consensus is possible. The first or preferred RPA option is the 5bne metro which is limited to 3 carriages vs 8 on DART or Arrow commuter trains, it would serve a very low catchment population and cannot be extended to the original Harcourt St line under this works order on procedural grounds.

Secondly the original route which I think they regard as second prize.

http://www.p45.net
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby J. Seerski » Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:34 pm

80 - 100 million for just more than one kilometre of light rail...... what a joke. I'll bet the proposals just mention that they
line will stop beside the other line rather than a straight through link that could carry passengers from Sandyford to Heuston etc.
Given the sorry history of cost over-runs on this project I wouldn't consider this proposal from that RPA technocracy. Why is an alternative route - via Merrion Square, Matt Talbot bridge not cnsidered?

Either way expect it to be completed at 2020, costing 1,500,000,000 excluding VAT and other costs!

And also, whatever happened the northside line.....? A huge gap in our public transport.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby ewanduffy » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:05 am

J. Seerski wrote:And also, whatever happened the northside line.....? A huge gap in our public transport.

Sure it will be there in 2007 if you believe the Sunday Times! In an article on 100% mortgages, they quoted a couple buying an apartment in Santry, stating that the LUAS will be operational to Santry in 2007.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby StephenC » Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:48 am

"via Kildare Street and Exchequer Street over a new bridge across the Liffey between Capel Street and Butt Bridge." Que?

Some of these routes seen to be really bizarre and totally unfeasible. Is this the intention I wonder. For example there is no way that DCC could allow a Luas line to go down part of Georges St. Its a vital route out of the city.
I am amazed that there is not even a mention of sending the line through Trinity (expensive and divisive but with some proper planning might actually be a good idea) or Merrion Sq, Westland Row, Pearse, Tara St and passing over Matt Talbot Bridge and terminating at the white elephant station the RPA built at Connolly. After all what is this stop going to do once the Docklands extension is completed. This route would also have the added effect of linking the Luas with three DART stations. "Integration" and all that.

And I agree what happened to the figure of 8 scheme.

What gobshites!

As for the idiots buying overpriced houses in Santry in expectation of their shiny new LUAS line.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby PVC King » Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:57 pm

The reality for Santry is that if the RPA supply a North side transport corridor it will not go through Santry, it will be a fully segregated light rail line that will go through Ballymun and enter the Dublin Airport complex just east of the M50/Ballymun junction and use the land within Dublin Airport. The facts on the ground are that the Old Airport Road North of Santry is basically a giant logistics park/ surface carpark there is little employemnt and literally no residential population. A Luas to Ballymun could in contrast be extended on street to Dublin Airport in tandem with a heavy rail spur to Swords, I would hate to see the journey times between Swords and the City Centre if the route were partially on street and diverted via Ballymun.

It has been confirmed that Trinity have received no approaches on routing Luas through the College and indeed no approach since 2002 when there were discussions on a metro routing from Stephens Green to the Airport via Tara St, TCD are apparently entirely opposed.

I like the idea of the termination via Matt Talbot Bridge I think that areas around Townsend St and Moss St could really benefit from that, there are two concerns that I have with the earlier part of the route. The first would be the section between the Shelbourne and the Start of Merrion Row as this area is already crowded and secondly the turning circle at Merrion Row. I think that a routing turning right at the end of Dawson St and onto Nassau St and Lincoln Place would acheive almost as much and critically would take full benefit of the positives in the later stages of the route such as integration with DART at both Pearse and Connolly, would bring Pearse St back off life support and would give the visual of trams running beside the front elevation of the Custom House.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby kefu » Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:53 pm

Maybe we should all be realistic here. As already said, worthwhile ideas like the figure of eight, going through Trinity and running the two Luas lines end into end at Macken Street are not even being given consideration.
Absolutely childish suggestions like going down George's Street and Parliament Street, main thoroughfares for half the bus routes and taxis in the city, are being included just to make up the numbers.
There's even talk of bridges between Capel Street and Butt Bridge, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if that actually appears in the RPA submissions and isn't a Business Post cock-up.
The mind has already been made up on this one. If it goes ahead - it's going down this Central Corridor.
And I hate to repeat myself but where exactly is the terminus going to be:- on O'Connell Bridge.
I think it's a disgrace that the RPA are pretending that they are going to link the lines when from what I can see this is not physically impossible.
The only way to join them is at a major interchange area (at the O'Connell Monument) or run them right into each other a la the Macken Street solution.
With that in mind (and based on the presumption that this project will go ahead regardless), why do you need to leave the lines ten yards apart.
Why not run the Sandyford line as far as College Green and leave it at that? That two-hundred yard walk would be shorter than the journey anyone undertakes while transferring from Metro to Metro in Paris or Tube to Tube in London.
It would probably save a bomb and also stop them destroying O'Connell Bridge and Westmoreland Street.
As has been said time and time again, the cost-benefit ratio on this link-up is an absolute disaster.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby StephenC » Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:06 pm

The lines could still run together at Beresford Place at the end of Abbey St with minimal fuss. Destorying the top of OC St with a luas terminus would be criminal.
Once the RPA 'agrees' its route does the City Council have any input? Or is it straight to ABP?
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby PVC King » Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:19 pm

As far as I know it is straight to a public enquiry at ABP but DCC as owners of the land would be fully represented at the enquiry stage.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby dowlingm » Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:16 pm

all this gets the RPA out of a hole with Metro - after all, it was supposed to run to the Green but they chopped out the bit from O'Connell Street to try and reduce the alarming estimated cost.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby GrahamH » Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:27 pm

That's an interesting idea Kefu about going as far as North Grafton St, allowing commuters to avoid the congested Grafton St (esp in the mornings with all the deliveries) whilst bringing you that bit closer to the Red Line if desired.

Of course this would never pass as a proposal though, as the appeal of a 'link' has to be there, even if in reality the RPA's favoured O'Cll Bridge proposal may very well not physically link either.

That Matt Talbot/Pearse/Connolly scheme has always been a favourite for me also Stephen, though how this ties in with the greater rail plan for Dublin I'm not sure. It it is compatible, I'd jump at it.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby Peter Fitz » Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:43 pm

what about IE's interconnector ! ??? luas just can't travel fast enough on street in the city centre ... through little fault of its own too, seems some people just don't get what to do when they see a red light ...
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby PVC King » Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:48 pm

The interconnector will happen regardless of what happens to Luas it is the only system that can support the continued passenger numbers required to support section 49 development contributions further out. If you were travelling inbound on the Red line one would change at Heuston to Dart and again at Stephens Green back to Luas. Two changes are required as would be required from Luas to Southern Dart with changes at Heuston and Pearse unless you stayed on Luas to Spencer Dock.

What is your reading of Luas almost one year in Peter?
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby ewanduffy » Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:47 am

Thomond Park wrote:The interconnector will happen regardless of what happens to Luas

Very optimistic. Dept of Finance are running their slide rule over it at the moment and I understand that they don't like it. But of course P11 must keep up the pretence that they are not the Emperor with no clothes.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby PVC King » Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:31 am

Ewan,

I think that with the exception of very few people that the benefits of the interconnector are very plain to see on both a convenience level (i.e. not having all Meath & Kildare commuters dumped in Spencer Dock) and a cost analysis basis. This is a project that can take Dept of Finance scrutiny and will facilitate the roll out of Dart type capacity and frequency for extensions to Balbriggan, Hazelhatch & Maynooth over the life of the 10 year plan.

The Metro is flawed both technically and on a cost analysis basis as Dublin Airport will never justify the passenger loadings to support it, estimates of above 3.4m air passengers and 435,000 airport employees using metro are optimistic based upon current airport use, estimates of a total of 5.8m users from the airport are wildly optimistic for 2015. This figure is slightly over 25% of current Luas user numbers which cost about 200m proportionally. An expenditure of 3.6-5bn under these circumstances is highly questionable given the population density along its route.


Luas for Ballymun with possibly spurs to Santry and Finglas are the answer.

It should also be noted that you have had strong opinions re Platform11 on IRN for some time
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