Luas Central - Which Route?

Luas Central - Which Route? I would prefer...

Route A
114
37%
Route B
127
41%
Route C
25
8%
Route D
27
9%
Route E
14
5%
 
Total votes : 307

Postby Devin » Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:17 pm

Originally posted by Paul Clerkin


I tend to agree with you.

I meant that in relation to the comments above about Newstalk 106 saying it could go underground between Dawson St & Westmoreland, & people saying where will the buses go.
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Postby Paul Clerkin » Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:31 pm

There was a sceme for a road through there in the 1800s... have an image somewhere of the proposed bridge
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Postby J. Seerski » Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:47 pm

The Luas connection to O'Connell Street seems wrong - could an alternative route of Stephens Green North/Kildare Street/Tara Street/Abbey Street not be a better solution, enabling southern commuters connect with the IFSC and O'Connell Street???

One question - are the re-laying of underground services on O'Connell Street at the moment illogical if the luas is to coonect via O'Connell Bridge, necessitating the relaying of all services again?!!! For less disruption and creating a wider city centre they should go via Tara Street, necessitating no new crossings of O'Connell Street and connecting Tara Street to the Luas.


;)
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Postby Paul Clerkin » Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:09 pm

A chara, - There is much talk of the linking-up of the two new Luas lines through Dublin city centre. The obvious solution is for Trinity College to let the Luas through its grounds at Nassau Street.

The Luas could then proceed up Tara Street and across Butt Bridge to link up with the Red Line in Abbey Street.

This solution would be cheap, and would open up the vista and atmosphere of Trinity College to the ordinary people of Dublin.

The students and staff would have to put up with some little disruption, but the sacrifice of their cloistered peace would be much appreciated by the rest of us. - Yours, etc.,

MUREDACH DOHERTY, Lower Beechwood Avenue, Dublin 6.


This was supposed to run from Nassau Street to Moss Street and was to link up with an intended bridge at the Custom House. Circa 1850s

Image
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Postby PVC King » Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:04 am

Originally posted by Paul Clerkin


This was supposed to run from Nassau Street to Moss Street and was to link up with an intended bridge at the Custom House. Circa 1850s

Image


Thank Christ that it was never built, they were a very destructive bunch our Victorian Rail scheme proponents. I fear that we are stuck with the loopline for ever, and to think that one scheme even involved a rail line over the Liffey from Tara St to Heuston. On a more positive note the interconnector is included in the DDDA 2003 masterplan along a clear route as a clear objective on one of only two maps.

BTW I strongly agree with Luas going around the dead side of Trinity as it would provide better access and density opportunity benefits than the mere bonus of an aestetic bonus on College Green.

I strongly believe that the buses must not become the meat in the sandwich as it is difficult enough to make the bus system attractive as it is.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby blue » Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:54 am

Whats wrong with the LUAS and Dublin Bus sharing College St/Nassau St? Can it really be that difficult to implement a system that both modes can use the same stretch of roadway. It happens everywhere else in Europe why not here?

I would like to see LUAS extendend towards the east as mentioned earlier but first things first. Get both lines linked up and the fastest way has to be over O'Connell Bridge.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby phil » Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:32 am

Paul Clerkin wrote:
Image


That is a very interesting image. It must have been early 1850s as there is no Museum Building in the background.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby JJ » Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:35 am

The original Light Rail Order proposals for the central portion are still available in the Civic offices in Tallaght and probably elsewhere. It showed shared running for Bus and Tram in Nassau street. This happens on tram systems all over the works and personally I think teh opportunity for more of it should have been taken with the two existing lines. The corner with Dawson Street looked like it was very tight with the footpath being clipped back ( anyone who uses this crossing wil know that it can be very crowded with pedestrians). The stop in Dawson Street was between Molesworth Street and that small laneway just north with the next one in front of the Westin.

Although some roadways are shown with different traffic flow s, so there may be minor tweaks required, I would imagine that the new proposals will be almost identical. It worked then and the recent changes have only served to reduce the interface with private traffic.

By the way has anyone noticed that the Luas bridge at Charlemont is being clad with some type of spandrel panels ?

Congrats and best wishes Paul on the new look.

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Re: luas central corridor

Postby GrahamH » Fri Nov 05, 2004 3:56 pm

I'm concerned about the wirescape. I know it's an old chestnut but what will be the impact on College Green?
Surely poles will be needed roughly in the area of the entrance to Trinity, where it won't be practical to suspend from buildings? And if the posts on Stephen's Green are anything to go by God help this Green if they are needed.
I don't like the idea of wires crossing over views of either the BoI or Trinity, esp where the bends and curves in the roadway will necessitate a less than straight run of cabling. Fair enough Harcourt St's has worked exceptionally well, but it's an almost straight run of cables, with no poles, and the dark red of the Georgians negate much of their impact. What will they be like in front of/alongside white, staightlaced classical set-pieces?

I don't know the answers but it's a big worry. Ok many other capitals in Europe put up with it, but does that mean it's therefore acceptable in Dublin if other practical routes are possible?
Equally the views of O'Cll Bridge, the portico of the House of Lords and the BoI colonade are issues to be considered.
Does anyone have any pics of what the impact, if any, might be?
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby PVC King » Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:00 pm

I agree that is a great unknown Graham but two other potential changes worry me a lot more. Any alteration to the front of Trinity which has been deemed necessary by the RPA to accomodate the new line. I likes Trinity the way it is with the curved railings and intamacy around the provosts residence, I would not be at all happy if they messed either of these up.

The second major problem that a Luas line would have is the O'Connell Monument it is a very wide statue and I'm not too sure that there would be suficient space to get a Luas line around it, retain 2 lanes of traffic, a bicycle lane and widen the footpaths ala the O'Connell St plan. The more I think about it the more that down the left side of Pearse St then into Hawkins St and accross to Marlborough St via a new bridge makes sense.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby Frank Taylor » Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:02 am

Graham Hickey wrote:Ok many other capitals in Europe put up with it, but does that mean it's therefore acceptable in Dublin if other practical routes are possible?
Equally the views of O'Cll Bridge, the portico of the House of Lords and the BoI colonade are issues to be considered.
The new trams in Bordeaux have no overhead power supply. They went for a new kind of power supply specifically for aesthetic reasons. The system they used is called "Innorail". It consists of a 3rd rail that only becomes live when the tram is directly above it (otherwise pedestrians would wander onto it and get fried). Anyhow, they've just put it live and I gather it has some teething problems but is likely to be a success.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby notjim » Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:31 pm

trams in london used to have a slot in the middle of the tracks with a live track beneath the surface. it must have been a pain in arse for getting clogged up with crap. i don't know how it was drained.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby Devin » Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:15 am

I thought it was generally accepted that the Luas wirescape is pretty minimal. To me Luas's wires in College Gn. would be better than the current narrow pavements / constant fumes and harrassment of traffic.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby Paul Clerkin » Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:03 pm

a tongue in cheek view... Frank McNally in The Irish Times

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/weekend/2004/1106/3987879409WK06FRANK.html
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby Peter Fitz » Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:36 pm

Would we not be better off putting the money in to the 'interconnector' ??
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby GrahamH » Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:50 pm

That really is the question isn't it - does the comparitively short walk through the city's finest and soon to be most pedestrian friendly streets warrant a light rail link? The cost is huge, and no doubt it would have been cheaper had it been done at the same time as the Green Line. The alterations necessary to accomodate it seem neither aesthetically nor practically appropriate on the face of it - I haven't read the Light Rail Order pertaining to this area so cannot comment on the details, but on the face of it is any link at all necessary, i.e, if a bus route was proposed to link the Green to O'Cll St at a cost of €50-€60 million it'd be laughed out of it.
Would a link via Westland Row to the IFSC offer greater value for money?
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby urbanisto » Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:29 pm

I think you pose some good questions here Graham. I was considering a more approriate route for Luas Green and I think turning east down Nassau St and down Westland Row would be a much more visionary route. Visionary in that it would be recognising that the city centre is expanding and that areas such as Grand Canal Dock and Spencer Dock are now import city qurters whcih not olky need to be integrated into the city and accessible from the city but also need to be seen as places that are accessable from other areas of the city. Just as weit was felt to be unsatisfactory to terminate the Red Line at OConnell St so I think it would be a mistake to see the Green Line only go this far. Visually I think the Luas wirescape would be a real retrograde step for College GReen and Westmoreland St just as the debate is developing towards moving these streets away from traffic towards pedestrians. All in all I think an underground interconnecter combine with a new fares structure and integrated ticketing would provide the most cost effective and best solution to tying up all these transport strands - Luas Dat and Mainline, as well as buses.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby PVC King » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:50 pm

I agree with Stphen C on this one that there is a viable route that will deliver some serious benefit as it will open up some areas for higher density development if it were to go down Pearse St. Trinity Court has destroyed this once fine street ensuring that all the local facilities have closed due to the bad element associated with it.

Trinity College can print as many glossy brochures displaying the inner yard as it likes but it has destroyed Pearse St by turning it's back on it, there is as John Devlin says a full dead kilometre between Westland Row and College Street, you can't even buy a piece of fruit.

I also agree with Peter that it is not going to kill anyone to move from Stephens Green to O'Connell St, it would be fine to have built Luas on this route in the original phase but to do so now would be an error.

I feel that many arguing for this route are doing so purely on aestetic grounds as they wish to see Luas turning the arc around the front of Trinity, it is the only time that I have ever seriously questioned Frank McDonalds reasoning.

Commitment to the a full implementation of the Iarnrod Eireann Dublin/East Coast Rail plan is the only solution to the Dublin Transport question,
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby Devin » Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:24 pm

Diaspora wrote:I feel that many arguing for this route are doing so purely on aestetic grounds as they wish to see Luas turning the arc around the front of Trinity

I don’t think you’re right there. It’s logical that light rail should go through the most central part of a city because that’s where all the action is.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby lostcarpark » Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:31 am

I think linking the lines is vital, as they should have been from the start.

Dawson St, Nassau St and College Green make sense as the shortest route, and would provide a link between the two main shopping areas (yes, I realise it's easily walkable). And I agree that having trams running around College Green will look lovely (though that's not enough reason to build it on its own).

In the short term, the Westland Row route has advantages, as it would integrate with DART was well as the Red line, but we should hopefully be getting the Interconnector a couple of years later, so it will be integrated at Stephen's Green anyway. Therefore I would advocate going the shorter and cheaper route.

I don't see a problem with busses and trams sharing road space on Nassau Street. If you eliminate cars from Dawson Street and Nassau Street, there shouldn't be any problems.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby PVC King » Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:01 pm

[quote="Devin"]I don’]

Exactly the reason to avoid that route, the station will be at the end of Dawson St whatever way its done, by going around Westland Row and crossing the Liffey at Hawkins St in front of the mooted new Abbey theatre site the stop would be almost as central as Westmoreland St.

The turn from O'Connell St into Abbey St would be a nightmare with trams coming from three angles, there is also the O'Connell monument which no-one seems to factor in.
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby Devin » Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:14 pm

Any more travel advice?
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby JJ » Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:48 pm

The turn from O'Connell St into Abbey St would be a nightmare with trams coming from three angles, there is also the O'Connell monument which no-one seems to factor in.[/QUOTE]

The original scheme split the track as the crossed the O'Connell bridge with one on each side of the monument. The central area behind teh statue then became one huge island platform. It showed a link turning into Abbey Street on the west side ( at that time the line to Connolly did not exist ). The movements here with crossing traffic, pedestrians and trams would be very complicated I think.

Suppose the lines merely crossed with passengers walking to Abbey Stop to change lines, then theres a crossover issue to be tackeled as the inbound tram needs to get to the other track for the outbound journey. As I see it if this is placed behind the stop then you would have the crossover in front of the GPO. In any event the newly laid surfacing will take a hammering.

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Re: luas central corridor

Postby kefu » Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:18 pm

it should run on an elevated line down Dawson Street, climb over Trinity College, do a loop-the-loop, come back down at Hawkins House and have a floating terminus on the River Liffey with ladders and slides linking on to the Boardwalk at Eden Quay
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby Richards » Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:59 pm

They should put the trams underground.
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