Restoring sash windows

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby S.O.S. » Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:33 pm

S.O.S. wrote:Remove the sashes from the frame,
Remove old pulleys,
Strip the paint from the frame,
Install new pulleys.
Remove excess paint from the sashes,
make a groove in the top of the bottom sash to allow a pile carrier to be installed for draught proofing.
weight the top sash then install it.
cut and install parting beads with no draught brushes showing.
Weigh the bottom sash then install.
Cut staff beads to length.
Attach ring pulls, lifters and fasteners

Small window €800 on average
Big windows €900 on average

larger orders are less.


If you do all that I do to windows you won't get 4/6 windows done in a day.

Pot Noodle wrote:You may drag it out to justifie €800 a window we just get stuck in the days of ripping people off is long gone value for money now


Your English is appalling.

Can you write properly so every one can understand what you are saying.

However if I read you correctly you are accusing me of ripping people off. That's a bit rich since you don't even know how long it takes to restore a window properly.

cheezypuf wrote:I really don't see how anyone could claim to restore six sash windows in a day and do anything like a proper job.


You are correct it's not possible to do a proper job in such a short time.

cheezypuf wrote:I'm talking about proper restoration though, not patching them up with plastic bits.

As a minimum a restored window will need a printer, undercoat and gloss. How do you manage to get all three coats on and dry in one day, and on six windows? Not to mention replacing damaged timber, replacing cords, rehanging weights, removing old puty, waiting a month for the puty to dry before painting, etc?


I think we have superman in our presence...
S.O.S.
Member
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:02 pm
Location: Co. Dublin

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby GrahamH » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:08 am

cheezypuf, can I ask why you are going about commissioning new cylinder glass for your windows? Surely the entire charm of original glass is that it is original - its flaws and imperfections the result of contemporary manufacturing limitations. Why would you want to falsely recreate that? Similarly, if I wanted to 'read' your building and be charmed by the integrity of its flashing panes of 19th century glass amongst the modern inserts, I would be sorely disappointed.

I've never quite understood why people would go to such effort to deceive in the installation of fake old glass. It's akin to eschewing modern transportation and bringing all the building materials to your house on a horse and cart.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby cheezypuf » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:48 am

GrahamH wrote:cheezypuf, can I ask why you are going about commissioning new cylinder glass for your windows? Surely the entire charm of original glass is that it is original - its flaws and imperfections the result of contemporary manufacturing limitations. Why would you want to falsely recreate that? Similarly, if I wanted to 'read' your building and be charmed by the integrity of its flashing panes of 19th century glass amongst the modern inserts, I would be sorely disappointed.

I've never quite understood why people would go to such effort to deceive in the installation of fake old glass. It's akin to eschewing modern transportation and bringing all the building materials to your house on a horse and cart.


A couple of the windows had glass replaced over the years. The old putty wasn’t cleared out properly and was left partially intact, and a new smaller pane was inserted, with more putty on top of the old. This was a pretty sloppy way to repair a window and has resulted in the glass being too small for the original frame when the layers of putty have been removed. As a result new glass will be needed anyway, so I thought glass that resembled the other (original) panes would be nice. Glass that isn't damaged or too small isn't being replaced.

I’m sorry that you find this sorely disappointing, but I’m doing my best to use the same materials and methods that were used when the windows were originally constructed. To this end, any replacement timber used is the same type as that removed, i.e. pitch pine. This has added to the expense, but I don’t think adding in pressure-treated deal, silicone filler or plastic beading would be very sensitive.

I’m not sure I agree with your analogy of a horse and cart. I think I’d prefer to use the example of someone with a period house choosing shades and types of paint that were available at the time the house was built, rather than modern hues and finishes.

I’m not sure if there is a right answer – perhaps it comes down to taste (or lack thereof)?
cheezypuf
Member
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:11 pm

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby GrahamH » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:20 am

It probably does yes. Don't get me wrong, I think you're doing a fantastic job with your windows, and I've been reading your posts with satisfaction at your following best conservation practice, including refraining from painting the putty until a later date. Similarly, I despise plastic parting beads with a passion and am shocked at the number of quite high profile buildings where these have been installed. Your past experience says it all really. Indeed a picture or two of what you're now doing wouldn't go amiss ;)

However I really do take issue with replicating historic glass. Doing this is quite different to replicating authentic colour schemes or historic building materials - these are design considerations, architectural elements which are integral to the character of a building, as important to its appearance in the present day as in times past. By contrast, crown and cylinder glass in original windows direcly relates to contemporaneous manufacturing techniques. Their presence in a building is important principally because of their survival, not as an aesthetic entity (though yes it can of course be pretty). Indeed I would argue that far from contributing to an historic building, the replication of old glass vastly diminishes the status of original glass in a window, as its integrity as surviving testament to former manufacturing techniques and indeed social hierarchy, is lost amid the array of deceiving reproductions. Essentially, for me, it's akin to replication exhibits in a museum case. They lack all the impact of the real thing, while an over abundance of such exhibits - as I'm sure everyone has encountered at one point or another - just makes the entire experience meaningless when you have to check every second caption card for authenticity.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby Pot Noodle » Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:38 pm

I never said that i painted them
Pot Noodle
Member
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:35 pm

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby S.O.S. » Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:19 pm

Pot Noodle wrote:i wont be commenting any more


Pot Noodle wrote:I never said that i painted them


cheezypuf wrote:A couple of the windows had glass replaced over the years. The old putty wasn’t cleared out properly and was left partially intact, and a new smaller pane was inserted, with more putty on top of the old. This was a pretty sloppy way to repair a window and has resulted in the glass being too small for the original frame when the layers of putty have been removed. As a result new glass will be needed anyway, so I thought glass that resembled the other (original) panes would be nice. Glass that isn't damaged or too small isn't being replaced.

I’m sorry that you find this sorely disappointing, but I’m doing my best to use the same materials and methods that were used when the windows were originally constructed. To this end, any replacement timber used is the same type as that removed, i.e. pitch pine. This has added to the expense, but I don’t think adding in pressure-treated deal, silicone filler or plastic beading would be very sensitive.

I’m not sure I agree with your analogy of a horse and cart. I think I’d prefer to use the example of someone with a period house choosing shades and types of paint that were available at the time the house was built, rather than modern hues and finishes.

I’m not sure if there is a right answer – perhaps it comes down to taste (or lack thereof)?


I think I have some of the old type glass in my possession if you are interested.
Let me know and I'll check my store for it.
S.O.S.
Member
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:02 pm
Location: Co. Dublin

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby Pot Noodle » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:31 pm

S.O.S. wrote:I think I have some of the old type glass in my possession if you are interested.
Let me know and I'll check my store for it.


FOC or €800
Pot Noodle
Member
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:35 pm

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby Pot Noodle » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:58 am

Pot Noodle wrote:FOC or €800



Thought as much
Pot Noodle
Member
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:35 pm

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby cheezypuf » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:55 pm

Pot Noodle wrote:Thought as much



I thought you weren't commenting again?

Thanks for the offer S.O.S, but the guys have fitted all the glass now and they'll be finishing the painting tomorrow. I'm so looking forward to getting my house back!
cheezypuf
Member
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:11 pm

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby djasmith » Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:15 pm

I've done a lot of research on the topic as I've mentioned here before, and I couldn't say a bad work about Bolgers, they've given me nothing but help and advice and I think they're fantastic. I have been in their workshops and I've seen first hand projects where they do salvage as much as possible on projects. Perhaps it was under different managment 10 years ago and hence your dissatisfaction, but certainly I've nothing but positive to say about them.
djasmith
Member
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:24 pm

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby joyce » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:21 am

Bolgers will if they can conserve a sash window rather than replace it. Even if it means bringing it back to their workshop. If they find that the window is impossible to save they will match it with exact detail.

They have updated their website http://www.wjbolger.ie
joyce
Member
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:01 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby lauder » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:35 am

These guys are brilliant, have used them for several Georgian and Victorian projects.

http://www.kellswindows.com/
lauder
Member
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:49 pm

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby S.O.S. » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:03 pm

joyce wrote:Bolgers will if they can conserve a sash window rather than replace it. Even if it means bringing it back to their workshop. If they find that the window is impossible to save they will match it with exact detail.

They have updated their website http://www.wjbolger.ie


Well you would say that wouldn't you...

http://www.archiseek.com/content/showpost.php?p=62064&postcount=242
S.O.S.
Member
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:02 pm
Location: Co. Dublin

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby kingswood » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:08 pm

snooky wrote:Hi,

Does anyone know or can recommend sash window restoration/replacement company that will cover North County Dublin? We have three sash windows on our stone cottage (c. 1905), which need either restoring or replacing.

I am unsure how bad they have to be before they must be replaced?

Windows are 6 over 6, have no weights/pulley visible (must have been ripped out), and we can't open them.. due to years of over painting I should think. One pane is cracked but the rest look ok. There's some small amount of wood rotting at the bottom of one of the windows as far as I can see.. though difficult to tell how bad the windows are underneath all the paint. They still keep out the wind and rain though!.

Appreciate any advice. Thanks



hi snooky
did you get your window issue sorted, let me know if you still need help
kingswood
Member
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:41 pm

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby S.O.S. » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:19 pm

kingswood wrote:hi snooky
did you get your window issue sorted, let me know if you still need help


The last tme snooky was on was April 05.

And I have first dibs:rolleyes:
S.O.S.
Member
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:02 pm
Location: Co. Dublin

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby Pot Noodle » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:26 pm

Still trying
:o€800 you must be having a larf
Pot Noodle
Member
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:35 pm

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby S.O.S. » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:22 pm

Pot Noodle wrote:Still trying
:o€800 you must be having a larf


I have seen the work of some of my competition including Bolgers and ex-Bolgers staff.

They don't bother to remove the old pulleys and put new ones in.

They use plastic parting beads (which are far cheaper than wooden ones) which can cause window frames to split.

They don't bother to strip the paint from the sashes nor the frame.

These are the hardest parts of the job.

Most of them charge more than me

Pot Noodle wrote:i wont be commenting any more


LOL
S.O.S.
Member
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:02 pm
Location: Co. Dublin

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby Pot Noodle » Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:51 pm

Banker
Pot Noodle
Member
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:35 pm

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby S.O.S. » Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:15 pm

I did some research and found that banker is a grave and personal insult.

Totally unnecessary:mad:

At least we know which banker gave you a debit card.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/essex/4741017.stm
S.O.S.
Member
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:02 pm
Location: Co. Dublin

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby GrahamH » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:12 pm

Out of curiosity, S.O.S or Pot Noodle, what's the industry norm cost to build a large segment-headed two-over-two sash window from scratch? Obviously I don't want to start WWlll here, but a ballpark figure would be much appreciated.

(apologies, not looking for work at the minute)

And perhaps to steer things to a more constructive end, what sort of challenges are you facing in terms of energy conservation versus authentic design considerations? Particularly in relation to double glazing, but also Low-E glass etc. How have you found local authorities in their attitudes towards preserving the integrity of windows of Protected Structures you've worked on? Do they give a toss over detailing? How do you advise your clients that insist on an insulation gain with their reproduction sashes over first generation PVC they're replacing?

It'd be most interesting to hear your thoughts on these matters given you're at the coal face.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby S.O.S. » Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:09 pm

GrahamH wrote:Out of curiosity, S.O.S or Pot Noodle, what's the industry norm cost to build a large segment-headed two-over-two sash window from scratch? Obviously I don't want to start WWlll here, but a ballpark figure would be much appreciated.

(apologies, not looking for work at the minute)

And perhaps to steer things to a more constructive end, what sort of challenges are you facing in terms of energy conservation versus authentic design considerations? Particularly in relation to double glazing, but also Low-E glass etc. How have you found local authorities in their attitudes towards preserving the integrity of windows of Protected Structures you've worked on? Do they give a toss over detailing? How do you advise your clients that insist on an insulation gain with their reproduction sashes over first generation PVC they're replacing?

It'd be most interesting to hear your thoughts on these matters given you're at the coal face.


When you take out a large window surround, being at a coal face would be less dusty.:D

It is very hard to give exact prices because different people and jobs require different things.

If for example someone wanted to keep the glazing bars to the proper 19mm then it has to single glaze but if they want double glaze then the bars have to increase to around about 30mm or be 1 over 1 or to have those god awful white bars between the panes.

I'm in the process of building some double-glazed corded sash windows 1 over 1 with curved tops that cost €2250 each fully finished and installed.

On the other hand I have done square 2 over 2 single glazed windows for €1700.(3mm drawn glass).

Double glazing:-I use Pinkingtons low-e glass when asked to use double glazing.

I deal mainly with private customers and in any case always steer my clients matching original details, I just don't see any reason why I shouldn't.

Regarding the insulation of heat as we all know most of the heat lost from old houses is through the walls and ceilings.

Once the draught-proofing is in an old sash window it makes the whole house warmer.

BER ratings reflect this.

Speaking for myself I advise my customers when they have me in their house to get their front and back door draught proofed at the same time.

I think the local authorities generally speaking are dense and don't understand the importance of the small details but I have met some architects who work for the council who really sparkle.

The enforcement section of DLRCoCo really stinks. I saw a fantastic old house on a hill some years ago had all its old windows (20) then recently I saw it again and all the windows had been torn out and replaced with god awful uPVC so I reported it and I was told I had to prove it. Madness
S.O.S.
Member
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:02 pm
Location: Co. Dublin

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby GrahamH » Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:31 pm

Thanks for that S.O.S - I'll keep that quote in mind, unless Pot Noodle can beat it ;). Sounds about right!

When you say you use Pilkington glass if asked for double-glazing, do you mean you use single-glazed Pilkington as an alternative, or double-glazed Pilkington? What do you do when a client insists on double-glazing with a Georgian sash? Do you take a deep breath and go with 30mm bars or stick to your morals?

Also, what sort of thickness of d/g unit is best, and is it possible to putty in double-glazed units? It would appear that using clunky beading instead of putty is now the only barrier to an acceptable use of thin d/g units in sash windows (Victorian anyway, whatever of Georgian). The use of specially treated high performance single-glazing which acts the same as double-glazing (and as featured on Grand Designs last week) doesn't seem to have caught on here. It's been available for years! Have you ever made use of this? (apologies for the twenty questions)

It's extraordinary the difference draught-proofing makes to sashes alright. Reducing the air changes in a room dramatically affects levels of heat retention. Indeed only recently I was in a modern house where the back door had a terrible draughty gap around the edges, and the room was about 50% colder than the rest of the house, in spite of having the same relative coverage of central heating.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby S.O.S. » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:34 am

GrahamH wrote:Thanks for that S.O.S - I'll keep that quote in mind, unless Pot Noodle can beat it ;). Sounds about right!


The only way someone can beat my price or quality is to do crap work.

GrahamH wrote:When you say you use Pilkington glass if asked for double-glazing, do you mean you use single-glazed Pilkington as an alternative, or double-glazed Pilkington? What do you do when a client insists on double-glazing with a Georgian sash? Do you take a deep breath and go with 30mm bars or stick to your morals?.


If someone wants low-e glass they must use a double glazed unit. I aim for a 14mm unit to keep the sashes as thin as possible but if I have the room I go with a 18mm gas filled double glazed unit (can't fit the nozzel into a 14mm unit).

If one of my customers insists on double glazing in a Georgian sash well its not possible unless you have a 30mm glazing bar even then there are no guarantees. I just say its not possible unless they go for 1/1 and stick those god awfulplastic bars onto them (which I won't do)

GrahamH wrote:Also, what sort of thickness of d/g unit is best, and is it possible to putty in double-glazed units? It would appear that using clunky beading instead of putty is now the only barrier to an acceptable use of thin d/g units in sash windows (Victorian anyway, whatever of Georgian). The use of specially treated high performance single-glazing which acts the same as double-glazing (and as featured on Grand Designs last week) doesn't seem to have caught on here. It's been available for years! Have you ever made use of this? (apologies for the twenty questions).


First you can put linseed putty on a double glaxed unit if you protect the rubber compound from the linseed with silicone or similar (the name of the one I use which I won't post).

I'm very interested in the name of that high preformance glass not k-glass is it.

GrahamH wrote:It's extraordinary the difference draught-proofing makes to sashes alright. Reducing the air changes in a room dramatically affects levels of heat retention. Indeed only recently I was in a modern house where the back door had a terrible draughty gap around the edges, and the room was about 50% colder than the rest of the house, in spite of having the same relative coverage of central heating.


The best way I found to draught proof a door is to route a groove around the door and install the same draught proofing I use for my sash windows.

Makes the door more difficult to open and close but by god it is very effective.

S.O.S. (Save Our Sashes)
S.O.S.
Member
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:02 pm
Location: Co. Dublin

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby brainscan » Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:19 pm

S.O.S.

What advice can you give on replacing/restoring a set of bay windows such as in the attached picture. While the timber looks sound I really need to consider the fact that it is only single glazing and I will be getting house dry-lined new heating etc. so a total replacement with new double glazed seems to be the compelling option. Other houses on the street have gone for PVC and Aluminium clad timber but they still don't look as nice as the original timber. I am putting it all out to tender with Cork based companies so if you have any pointers on keeping the cost down i would really appreciate it.
Attachments
clip_image002.jpg
clip_image002.jpg (23.89 KiB) Viewed 3250 times
brainscan
Member
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:00 pm

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby S.O.S. » Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:48 pm

brainscan wrote:S.O.S.

What advice can you give on replacing/restoring a set of bay windows such as in the attached picture. While the timber looks sound I really need to consider the fact that it is only single glazing and I will be getting house dry-lined new heating etc. so a total replacement with new double glazed seems to be the compelling option. Other houses on the street have gone for PVC and Aluminium clad timber but they still don't look as nice as the original timber. I am putting it all out to tender with Cork based companies so if you have any pointers on keeping the cost down i would really appreciate it.



If you replace those windows you will become my enemy for life;)

One of the big problems with sashes made for double glazed units is the the companies that make them can't keep the size of the sash down (2.25"-2.5"), so you end up with the frame being too big.

I can't post which company I use for my materials but if you PM me your phone number I can go through the process with you.

S.O.S.
S.O.S.
Member
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:02 pm
Location: Co. Dublin

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland