college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby PVC King » Mon May 22, 2006 5:52 pm

That is absolute rubbish; the DART has thrived on low to mid rise densities; the arrival of Metro will not lead to 'high rise' but will facilitate higher densities in the 5 to 8 storey range at a number of locations.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby a boyle » Mon May 22, 2006 6:17 pm

[quote="Thomond Park"]That is absolute rubbish]

No i don't think so. the tram resulted in office plans for the industrial estate being shelved and replaced with very intense housing development. I think i am right in saying that three applications for tower blocks went in (one 15 storey , one 23, and another inbetween) in ballinteer gort mhuire's application included a ten storey block. This was adjacent to 2 storey terraced houses.

The route that the dart takes was always developped with medium intensity, and it was mostly developped before the dart started. What has happened in dundrum and in swords is a huge number of semids . These can only be balanced in terms of high rise. So there will be more extremes. To see how correct this is we shall have to wait for the census to come out.

Now dundrum hasn't turned into a ghetto, far from it. In fact it has never looked better (for the most part). But there is a whole leap between a capacity of 3 thousand and 30 thousand an hour a direction.

in any event it is plain common sense to build a network of 6/7 trams across the whole city (including one to swords). instead of one concentrated metro north route.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby PVC King » Mon May 22, 2006 6:26 pm

As has been stated many times by users of the line the Luas cannot handle current volumes from Miltown inbound at peak times; roll on Cherrywood and it will be impossible to get Luas from Dundrum at peak times.

In contrast the segregated DART system has ramped upto to ten car sets or will do when the old sets return from Prague; this is exclusively served by 2 to 7 storey developments which with the exception of Blackrock village and Dun Laoghaire serves almost exclusively 2 to 3 storey areas. Yet it is packed to the rafters at peak times.

In your analysis you completely overlook existing high density areas such as Phibsboro, Ballymun, Santry Cross and Swords Village not to mention the approximately 5 to 7million passengers that will use the airport each year.

Also before the Dublin and Kingstown railway there were a couple of villages and the Pembroke estate en route.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby a boyle » Mon May 22, 2006 6:40 pm

[quote="Thomond Park"]As has been stated many times by users of the line the Luas cannot handle current volumes from Miltown inbound at peak times]

Thanks for supporting my argument there Thomond . The housing development has outpaced the provision of transport capacity. Now multiply the capacity by ten .

Then take the route and for a third of ban any development (airport exlusion zone) ,

then take another third and ohh it is already largely developped --- oooh like ranelagh and charlemont.

then take the last third and ooohhh there a spot for a 40 storey , thanks very much. cash back !

As you have just said there is an explosion of developement south of dundrum. How can you see that and then say that the development in swords will be restrained to 4-7 storeys ? when metro capacity is provided? To make the metro work you need to add a hundred thousand people give or take a few tens of thousands. where will they go ?

Wait ---- -- hang on --- are you smoking something ?
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby KerryBog2 » Mon May 22, 2006 7:32 pm

A. Boyle, I think that you are getting too wound up on the wrong issues here. High rise living is perfectly acceptable by and for middle income families. Look at Manhattan, where incomes – and rents - are even higher. The main reason growing families move out to the NY or CT suburbs is due to the schooling/taxation/rent mix, nothing else. Just walk in Central Park any weekend, look at the age profile of the people there – singles, young marrieds with toddlers and OAPs.

Also, it is not accurate to compare a possible development in Swords with La Defense. Firstly, La Defense was constructed primarily as an office park, not a residential zone. Secondly, the transport issues are different because in most French cities the richer people live in the city centre and the poorer population lives in the outer suburbs. That is not the case in Ireland. Thirdly, the French legal framework supports the political process, rapidly enforces compulsory purchase and drives policy in a way that is almost impossible to imagine in Ireland. Think of the farce of Tara, Carrickmines, Glen of the Downs, etc.

When I worked in La Defense I initially lived in the city centre and it was a 30 minute or so metro-ride. Never waited more than 3 minutes for a metro. Later, living to the west of Paris I could take the RER to La Def. (every 15 mins) journey time also 30 mins. If I wanted to drive to work there were zillions of underground car spaces to use. If I wanted to go anywhere there was a bus, or a train, RER or Metro emanating from underground linked termini below the Grande Arche. Back then the La Defense transport system handled about 400,000 journeys every day and it worked (well, when they were not on strike!) Everyone used the RATP or RER and a figure I remember was almost 90% of our employees (services co.) used public transport to come to work. We had a transport company representative come to our building once a month and set up shop in an office where you could buy your “carte orange” or seasonal pass, at a discount that would make Bus Eireann/Luas/Dart wince! Many Dart stations do not even allow turnstiles, where they have one they are located in front of the ticket office, not where they should be. Could we build something comparable to la Defense in Ireland? I very much doubt it, every gobshite would have a petition started, every shoneen would be in on the act to buy a bit of land to make a killing, every politico would be driven to bertiespeak bumbling to placate the electorate and hold on to office and every union official would be throwing shapes to get more money for the dossers.
Those are the lessons we need to learn from, not Ballymun or Tallaght.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby Alek Smart » Mon May 22, 2006 11:09 pm

AHhh The slow and suspenseful dropping of the Penny.....
The single most important item missing from the Irish Political stage is the ability to take a decision.
The present Taoiseach is probably the World Champion at "Consensus" politics.
Concensus being a relatively new term for "Failure to make a Decision".
The RATP "Carte Orange" setup you mention is testimony to the role which the RATP plays in PROVIDING Public Transport in Metropolitan Paris.

It`s not seen in France as anything peculiar for the agency to get it`s hands dirty selling it`s ticketing options.
Here in Baile Atha Cliath our Bus Services CASH fares remain within the jealously guarded gift of the Dept of Transport whilst the Off Bus Ticket Sales are NON-Controlled.

Over the years this form of "Gaelic" price fixing has eroded the universal benefit of OFF Bus Prepaid ticketing,namely DISCOUNT,since the cash strapped operator has over the years attempted to rack up income in the only manner it could by INCREASING Off Bus Ticket prices or by eliminating the discounts which once applied. to Pre-Paid tickets.

It`s not all bad news though,as the CIE company`s have put quite a bit of welly into the Taxsaver Ticket range which DOES provide a very flexible AND integrated range of tickets benefiting from a Revenue Taxback feature.

However the present Smartcard fiasco continues to wobble along with €16 Million already spent and NOTHING to show for it which surely proves the lack of a decision maker anywhere in the Capitals infrastructure !!
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby a boyle » Mon May 22, 2006 11:26 pm

you are absolutely right about the ratp. but you did forget to mention ,that they go on strike . You when it's little isabelle communion. or they had a late night . Or they just neeeeeeeeeed a break.

competing agencies ought to be a really good thing, if their was a transport minister who could take decisions. And there is the nub , all the transport decisions affect bertie's constituency directly or indirectly.

So while brennan seemed to be competent ( he reorganised the road contracts so that the price thats named is the final price) his hands were tied behind is back . no interconnector / because that means no metro for the next 7 years. Do NOTHING with aer lingus and of course do NOTHING with aer rianta (it still exists! ).

Then he was switched for actually thinking he could decide what happened to aer lingus , and was replaced with cartoon character of a minister.

You have definitely hit the nail on the head. I would hope the next administration would bring in a toiseach not dependant on that constituency.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby KerryBog2 » Tue May 23, 2006 12:37 pm

KerryBog2 wrote:.......... the La Defense transport system handled about 400,000 journeys every day and it worked (well, when they were not on strike!)


A Boyle,
I did remember to say it, anyone who has worked in France could not forget les greves!
;)
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby Rory W » Tue May 23, 2006 3:06 pm

It amazes me that whenever high rise (anything over 4 storeys) is mentioned it's always the same old Ballymun rubbish is trotted out. No-one mentions Ardoyne House in Donnybrook (11 storeys I think and the only social problem seems to be running low on tonic for G&Ts) or the Millenium Tower at the Grand Canal Harbour where people seem to be able to live perfectly fine as well.

The example of Sandyford is given as to "Oh my God It's 23 stories tall" - it's hardly a ghetto at Beacon South Quarter, people want to live there because it's in the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown area and has the Luas link to the city centre. Is'nt it better that this area is developed for accomodation and consign the offices elsewhere/further out rather than people having to car commute. A similar thing can happen in Swords with the metro once the planning is clearly thought out.

I'd sooner live in Swords in a good family sized apartment and get the metro than have to commute in from somewhere like Kells, and no I wouldn't do it on a bus - the traffic is just too bad out there.

As a northern line commuter the spur to the airport off the Dart line is a non runner - the line is at capacity already at peak time and this would only make things worse (particularly when the interconnector is finished). The only way that a decent link to the airport is created (a la Heathrow) is to build the metro - don't forget it is possible to run express metros to the airport as well.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby PVC King » Tue May 23, 2006 3:12 pm

Express isn't required the 'all stops' journey time is quoted at 22 minutes
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby a boyle » Tue May 23, 2006 4:03 pm

Rory W wrote:...
The example of Sandyford is given as to "Oh my God It's 23 stories tall" - it's hardly a ghetto at Beacon South Quarter, people want to live there because it's in the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown area and has the Luas link to the city centre. ...

As a northern line commuter the spur to the airport off the Dart line is a non runner - the line is at capacity already at peak time and this would only make things worse (particularly when the interconnector is finished). The only way that a decent link to the airport is created (a la Heathrow) is to build the metro - don't forget it is possible to run express metros to the airport as well.


Firstly the reason i object to the sandyford towers is because 2000 appartments have been granted, (roughly 1500 more were sought), and only 200 hundred of these are appropriate for one child families. Lots of shops are being built. But no school and no park . No tennis court , No running track. Only a PRIVATE gym. This is not building a community.

If a substantial park was built and 10 million invested into expanding the three primary/secondary schools , i would welcome a hundred storey tower or four, with space for a few thousand single people and a few thousand families. This location would be ideal.

Regards the northern line. This factually incorrect. The interconnector adds 75 million extra spaces to the network. The northern line is held back by congestion which the docklands station halves, and the interconnector removes completely. If these were built in tandem with an airport spur, there would be space to add the same capacity to the airport as the underground tram (25 million) AND add 50 million to the rest of the network. And while the tram will not be able to be further updgraded, the rail network will still have the potential to double capacity again in 5 decades. This means an eight carriage dart for 2500 people every 2 minutes against two trams stuck together for 600 every 2 minutes.



Thomond the airport to busaras time on the bus will be 14 minutes. This was ignored by the consultants who examined the case for the underground tram.

We need the real metro (interconnector) which allows for high frequency on all four routes into the city (instead of metro north one route). We need this because each service on the interconnector can allow for 2500 people instead of 600. We need the interconnector because from the start it allows for four minutes frequencies, and can be double again in fifty years. We need a network of 6/7 tram lines connecting to this very high capacity backbone network. We need 2 tram lines running north south from swords to tallagh(via terenure) and bray (via dundrum). We need an orbital tram outside the m50. and we need two east west trams, one on the north side one on the south side.

The interconnector is so much better by leaps and bounds (ie four routes to the city centre with four minutes frequency services and 2500 people a go) backed up by a network of trams at five minute frequencies and 300-600 people a go. and in turn backed up by buses at variable frequency at 50 -100 people a go.

You see this makes sense . Building an underground tram in the least populated part of the city , where a third of the route can't be built on , is retarded. Furthermore it's slower than the bus (we just built a bus metro system with the port tunnel) . Furthermore the patronage expected to the airport which will form the financial bedrock for the first decade won't materialise because people don't like lugging their luggage around and the bus is ten minutes quicker.

QUICK QUESTION am i the only engineer ? Because if this is the case i can smugly confirm you don't know what you are talking about. GOOD day.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby PVC King » Tue May 23, 2006 4:08 pm

Commuter safety at risk as fainting spate hits crowded, creaking trains

ON THE POINT OF COLLAPSE: Left, Leanne Kerr, who takes a fold-up chair on the northbound train to Drogheda to prevent herself from suffering another fainting episode. Right, Jessica Reilly, a passenger on the same train, finds nowhere to sit but the floor. Below, the notorious Dublin-Dundalk line is particularly vulnerable to overcrowding. Photos: Tony Gavin and Richard Stokes

LARISSA NOLAN
OVERCROWDING on commuter trains has led to a spate of passengers fainting from lack of oxygen, and a GP working near one Dublin train corridor has slammed our "creaking" train system.

Dr James Reilly says he is seeing an increasing number of patients who attend his clinic in Lusk, Co Dublin, after passing out on board packed commuter lines. Dr Reilly, the former head of the Irish Medical Organisation, said the phenomenon was a direct result of the "creaking" publictransport system, which is so inadequate that most trains are packed after just a few stops.

Dr Reilly told the Sunday Independent: "Pregnant women, elderly people and children make up the bulk of those who have fainted, but it could happen to any one of those crammed onto an overcrowded train.

"People are fainting because they can't breathe or because of a sudden drop in blood pressure because they are standing so long.
"A number of people have attended my surgery after they lost consciousness on a packed train."

He said many of them were on the same train - the Dublin to Dundalk line - which has become notorious amongst commuters.
Dr Reilly, the former IMO president, is standing for Fine Gael in Dublin North in the next general election.

The two most affected trains on this line are the 07.50 weekday morning service citybound from Dundalk, and the 17.50 service outbound in the evenings.

Those who take the line every day say it is constantly overcrowded, with large volumes of people pushing onto already full trains and often hurling abuse at others in their determination toget on.

Last Thursday, the peak-time evening train to Dundalk was no exception. After leaving from Pearse Station, it was full by the time it reached Connolly, when hundreds more travellers piled on.

All passengers stood shoulder to shoulder and many had problems making their way down the packed carriage to get off at their stop.
A sign warning people not to sit on the floors and not to bring their own portable seating was being widely ignored by exhausted commuters.

Leanne Kerr was one of those who had taken her own fold-up chair. Having fainted on the train herself on a previous occasion, she felt she had to do so for her own safety.

Leanne, from Laytown, Co Meath, said: "It was a winter's night, so I got on the train with my coat on. With so many people on board it was really hot, but I didn't have space to remove my coat.

"I started to feel faint and I passed out and smacked my head off a metal bar. Then I came to and passed out again. It was very frightening and it would not have happened if there had not been such a high volume of people on the train."

The 26-year-old credit controller takes the train every day and says she finds the journey unbearable. "I try to find some place to stand inthe corridor, where it isless crowded, but that can be difficult."

Jessica Reilly also depends on the service to get to and from work and says she can never get a seat.

"Everyone is pushing and shoving to get on and shouting at people to move up the train. You can feel other passengers' breath on your face. It's disgusting, and I can see how a person could faint in such conditions."

Fine Gael Transport spokesperson Olivia Mitchell said she too had heard cases of passengers fainting on trains.
"I believe that this particular train is especially unbearable, you can't move on it," she said.

"The fact that fainting onboard has become a medical phenomenon just goes to show how critical the issue of overcrowding is."
A comprehensive, high-capacity train system for the city is the only solution to the transport problem, according to Deputy Mitchell.

"Dublin is far behind when it comes to a decent public transport system. It is time for an underground system like the New York subway or the Paris metro.

"With such a hugely growing commuter population, demand outstrips supply year on year. A fully linked-up rail service is the only way to solve the problem."

Iarnrod Eireann spokesperson Cliodhna Ni Fhatharta said overcrowding is an unfortunate reality of peak-time rail travel.
"Passengers have to stand on crowded trains all over the world and that is because trains are a safe, fast and reliable way to travel.

"We have lengthened train carriages, extended platforms and put on more trains, but it is still not enough."
Ms Ni Fhatharta claimed there was no danger involved in travelling while standing on a packed train.
"There is no evidence to prove that you are more at risk from injury when standing than when seated," she said.

Iarnrod Eireann hopes their new Interconnector service will go some way to easing the congestion.
The Interconnector is an 5.2km underground Dart line which will go from the Docklands to Heuston Station.
Two other Dart lines have been proposed for Balbriggan to Hazelhatch and Maynooth to Bray


© Sunday Independent 2006
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independe...issue_id=14075


Luas is sufficient? The above relates to 9 coach trains and your answer is 30m trams
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby a boyle » Tue May 23, 2006 4:19 pm

Thomond Park wrote:Luas is sufficient? The above relates to 9 coach trains and your answer is 30m trams


No my answer was build the interconnector and the tram (7 ) which you would have noticed if you stopped focussing on trying to be clever.

The northern line currently can't take any more train because of congestion .As allready posted the docklands station or broadstone can divert all sligo line trains away from connoly freeing up time for more northern darts The interconnector frees up more space by allowing dart to pass straight through the city and so get out of the way of intercity . routes .

What is so good about the interconnector is that initially it will cope with 16 trains an hour thats 2500 * 16 = 40 thousand people per direction per hour. when this number is reached it can be increased again in decades to come. The construction of a grade seperated slipway from the interconnector to the northern line will allow frequencies of up to 90 seconds. thats 60/1.5*2.5= 100 thousand per hour per direction. So it will be able to cope today and for the next 100 years. That is called good planning.


but i am sure that a 90 metre tram is more important than 300 metre train .yes well done.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby a boyle » Tue May 23, 2006 4:44 pm

this is the way forward. there is no better networks that balances cost with capacity. none
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby PVC King » Tue May 23, 2006 4:53 pm

a boyle wrote:No my answer was build the interconnector and the tram (7 ) which you would have noticed if you stopped focussing on trying to be clever.


As both Luas lines display neither has sufficient capacity and the interconnector will represent as a parralell version of the metro whilst serious congestion can be expected on the Sandyford line.


a boyle wrote: The northern line currently can't take any more train because of congestion .As allready posted the docklands station or broadstone


I don't think that existing users of the Maynooth commuter service would accept this as most of them continue their journey beyond Connolly and this would make DART connection impossible in a single change.

a boyle wrote: The construction of a grade seperated slipway from the interconnector to the northern line will allow frequencies of up to 90 seconds. thats 60/1.5*2.5= 100 thousand per hour per direction. So it will be able to cope today and for the next 100 years. That is called good planning. .


This exists already what do you think Spencer Dock was prior to development?


a boyle wrote:but i am sure that a 90 metre tram is more important than 300 metre train .yes well done.

Where are the 90m trams? If 90m island platforms were introduced entire alignments would have to be taken out of service and reinstatement would result in long closure periods as statutory safety periods were observed; this is unfortunately a non-runner on safety grounds
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby a boyle » Tue May 23, 2006 5:03 pm

Thomond Park wrote:As both Luas lines display neither has sufficient capacity and the interconnector will represent as a parralell version of the metro whilst serious congestion can be expected on the Sandyford line.

the current luas lines can have it's capacity doubled if city centres car restrictions are put in place that will be enough
Thomond Park wrote:

I don't think that existing users of the Maynooth commuter service would accept this as most of them continue their journey beyond Connolly and this would make DART connection impossible in a single change.

Because forcing a single change for the commuters from maynooth allow the current capacity to quadruple (in conjunction with the interconnector) it is fair and reasonable.
Thomond Park wrote:
This exists already what do you think Spencer Dock was prior to development?

spencer dock is only half grade seperated. If it is made fully grade seperated there is potential for 100 thousand per hour per direction which is impressive compared with the underground tram that tops out at 25 thousand.
[quote="Thomond Park"]
Where are the 90m trams? If 90m island platforms were introduced entire alignments would have to be taken out of service and reinstatement would result in long closure periods as statutory safety periods were observed] What are you talking about ? the ninety metre trams is what the rpa want to build to the airport : two trams stuck back to back. A phenomenal waste of a tunnel.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby PVC King » Tue May 23, 2006 5:30 pm

a boyle wrote: the current luas lines can have it's capacity doubled if city centres car restrictions are put in place that will be enough Because forcing a single change for the commuters from maynooth allow the current capacity to quadruple (in conjunction with the interconnector) it is fair and reasonable.


It is not fair and reasonable to dump existing users to distant locations] spencer dock is only half grade seperated. If it is made fully grade seperated there is potential for 100 thousand per hour per direction which is impressive compared with the underground tram that tops out at 25 thousand. [/QUOTE]

It does not require full grade seperation because both the Midland and Drumcoundra line branch off before the Newcommen Curve to Spencer Dock from the Northern Line; a line I am beginning to wonder if you have ever been on.

What are you talking about ? the ninety metre trams is what the rpa want to build to the airport : two trams stuck back to back. A phenomenal waste of a tunnel.


Associates advise that the rolling stock will be closer to the tube than Luas which makes the Cherrywood extension all the more ludicrous as the metro rolling stock will not be compatable with the Vodafone U-bend
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby a boyle » Tue May 23, 2006 5:53 pm

the grade seperation is not currently needed as you point out . the current plans allow for 16 trains per hour. However full grade seperation will allow for 40 trains per hour over the next century.

In short the interconnector allows for an increase of capacity of 75 million initially with the possiblity of increasing it passed 150 million

The under ground tram expect to carry 30 million in twenty years. You tell me which is a better idea the metro north (25) OR the interconnector + tram + bus (75 mill + 10000 per hour)

The metro north carries fewer people to fewer places more slowly for the same amount of money. Are you a painter/artist/musician because only such a person could forgiven for not understanding numbers.

The trams are may be a bit wider but there is only two of them as against 8 dart carriages. so to repeat it 600 against 2500 per service.

Despite what the inquiry says there is no need to provide improve the luas extension for the next decade. Because the current tram set can run at five minute intervals from carrickmines to the city , suplemented by other tram starting at sandyford to give a 2.5 minute frequency between sandyford and town and five minute frequency between carrickmines and town.

You have consistently ignored that having provided a network of 7 trams you can then reasonably bring their frequencies up to 1.5 /2 minutes. Thereby getting a large increase in capacity without blowing money on a white elephant ,which is what the metro north is.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby phil » Tue May 23, 2006 6:22 pm

I quite like when threads evolve and go off topic slightly, so don't get me wrong in what I am about to post. I just think that this has been taken a little bit too far off topic. I know there is a relationship between the current traffic issues in Dublin City Centre and possible further pedestrianisation of College Green or other areas, but it would seem that this discussion is now probably more suited to having its own thread.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby a boyle » Tue May 23, 2006 6:29 pm

indeed but i will bring it full circle if you like. This network of trams based around the two dart lines , will enable the college green westmoreland street and o'conell street to be pedestrianised , almost completely. And i look forward to the day when a large 'impressive' fountain sit in fron of trinity and buses are nowhere to be seen .
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby PVC King » Tue May 23, 2006 6:32 pm

You will be waiting a very long time; getting car movement eliminated from this area would be a very impressive start
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby phil » Wed May 24, 2006 9:20 am

Or widening the footpaths slightly at the Dame Street end of College Green would be an even better start. It is too much a bottle neck and also happens to be where the bus stops are. Of course, this should be continued along Dame Street, as in general, the footpaths there are way too narrow (apart from the area on front of the Central Bank).

Also, does anyone know if the work on the Thomas Davis statue and fountain has finished yet?

Thanks,

Phil
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby StephenC » Wed May 24, 2006 11:30 am

I quite like when threads evolve and go off topic slightly, so don't get me wrong in what I am about to post. I just think that this has been taken a little bit too far off topic. I know there is a relationship between the current traffic issues in Dublin City Centre and possible further pedestrianisation of College Green or other areas, but it would seem that this discussion is now probably more suited to having its own thread.


Here here.... I think most people have switched off from this.. Its just too technical. Also pie in the sky as half of that T21 shit will never be built anyhow. :(

Besides a new look College Green is my next big thing! :)
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby Frank Taylor » Wed May 24, 2006 1:25 pm

To get back on topic: even if private cars were banned from Westmoreland St, the road would still be handling a huge volume of buses and would be in no sense 'pedestrianised'. If some means were found to remove buses and taxis, the street would still be too wide for a successful pedestrian environment. Compare its 30m width to Grafton or Henry Street with 12-14m widths. Ignoring the WSC heritage, the street would work better for pedestrians with a narrow row of 4-storey buildings down the centre. Pedestrian streets work better when they have a certain cosiness about them, when the buildings on either side are not much further apart than the walls of a large room.

On-street trams might look nice and give you a feeling of living in a modern city but trains don't mix well with pedestrians. You have the same stress of crossing at junctions and you can't let your young children walk beside you as you can in a fully pedestrian environment like Henry street. If you have lived in Amsterdam or Zurich where trams work well from a transport point of view, you will know the downside of losing the freedom to wander without fear of being splatted by 'light' rail.

So full pedstrianisation is a long way off, but a possible compromise is removal of cars, widening of footpaths, a bus lane and a light rail track.
Frank Taylor
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby a boyle » Wed May 24, 2006 2:04 pm

There just seems to me to be such a such waste in sending traffic through college green. There is one improvement i think we could all agree on. Close Suffulk street, make grafton street two way. You would need to move the loading bay facilities in front of spar round the corner onto suffolk street, but that is not too hard.

If the port tunnel gives the respite that is is capable of there are many things like this that could be done . Maybe stop cars driving onto college green. If you think about it anytime you use college green you could use the quays instead.


The big transport ideas are not that technical , but it takes a while to get your head around them. I would say to stephenc that some will be built. -- the extension to the lulu will be built.
despite the train strike recently , all the trains tracks in country have been renewed in recent years. And an entire new set of trains for all the different services are either on order or have arrived. Thats a big job!
a boyle
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