Dublin Fruit Market

Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby ctesiphon » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:35 pm

gunter wrote:There is no way that this architecture does any justice to any of the these aspirations. If this was designed by three different architectural practices, why does it all look the same?


My guess is that Gehl Architects were brought in for the ground plan/movement/site analysis stuff, HKR for the 'local knowledge' aspect and Make for the 'high profile name' bit (is DCC turning into DDDA in allowing itself be seduced by starchitect factor?). Which doesn't really answer your question.

I rather liked the previous proposal/visuals- was it Donnelly Turpin or someone like that? Floating around since '03/'04. It had coherence (if a little flawed- the square was closed to the south, for example); this has monotony.

A gestation period like this says 'This is the best we can get'. Saddening.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby Devin » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:06 pm

Is it just me or has the size of the public space to the west of the square been reduced in the latest proposal compared with the earlier one?

The idea of the Victorian market building being situated in the middle of a square has definitely been eroded somewhat in the latest proposal by new buildings.


Both schemes:

Image

Image
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby ctesiphon » Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:05 pm

You might be right, but it seems that the overall layout has changed a bit too- there's another square to the north now that wasn't there before. Perhaps the site was added to in the interim? All in all, it's less formal in appearance in the new incarnation, but I thought the previous square had a nice simplicity to it, unlike the 3D version of the London 2012 logo that's proposed now. Ooh! Funkayyyyy!!!
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby johnglas » Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:47 pm

Why is it that the architects were unable to propose a development involving brick and stone, voids and solids, arcades and arches, streets and piazze - in other words, a contemporary and complementary take on the classical rennaissance themes of the Fruit Market? Why is it that the best they can come up with is a quirky modernist pastiche to a tired old formula (shoeboxes but not quite)? Can nobody do inventive townscape respecting the 'genius loci'?
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby gunter » Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:31 pm

[HTML][quote="Devin"]

The idea of the Victorian market building being situated in the middle of a square has definitely been eroded somewhat in the latest proposal by new buildings.[/HTML]

I agree with you there Devin.

Whatever about the architectural quality of the first plan, and you'd have to worry about a square that conforms so closely to the johnglas ideal, at least you would have known that you were in a 'square'. Furthermore, in the original scheme, the existing markets building was, quite rightly, the focus of the square. I'm not too sure that those seemingly simple objectives are achieved so well in the new scheme.

On the other side of the equation, I quite like the less formal arrangement, simply because most great squares that I can think of, the ones that work really well as great urban spaces, are nearly always the ones that are less obviously planned. (exceptions : St. Marks Sq. Piazza Navona, anything baroque from Italy).

A surprising number of the great European squares are semi-accidental in that they came about after fires destroyed existing city blocks. The great square at Nurnberg, where they hold the christmas markets now, was apparently only created after the citizens of the city burned down the original Jewish quarter (which shows how far back those particular tendencies go), and the huge square at Erfurt was only created in the early 19th century, when a fire destroyed the blocks separating two smaller medieval squares.

Quite a lot of the great formal squares of northern Europen are actually only great architecturally, they're not great urban spaces, if you you include 'hubs of activity' in the criteria. You'd find more life in the courtyard of a nursing home than you'll find in Robert Adam's Charlott Square, and Place des Vosges, for all it's sublime beauty, isn't all that much livlier. The square in front of the Neu Residenz in Wurzburg is so vast and so formal (on three sides) and so dead, that it can only be used as a giant surface car park.

O.K. Fruit Market Square was never going to be in that league, but it is still, potentially, an important urban space and, as such, it still has to decide what it's trying to be. Is it trying to be a formal square, as originally envisaged, or a fluid organic space?

If the answer now is the latter, then straight away you're into a dilemma, how do you design an undesigned space? Do you just contrive it crooked and to hell with issues of logic? Do you try and pick up clues from the surrounding urban patterns and then contrive it, but with answers (Libeskind style) if anyone asks why bits are slanty? Do you divide the development up into parcels and let the contrived result be a 'Making a Modern Square' by Group 91 - 08? This would get my vote, if I had one.

Whatever way you go about creating a new fluid informal space, what you don't do, surely, is go around all the architecture that you've carefully contrived not to be formal, and stamp it all with the heaviest square pattern template you can find.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby johnglas » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:11 pm

gunter: I agree with you completely; I was not advocating the 'creation' of a planned series of 'squares' (or spaces) - as a former planner, I know how difficult that is to design and execute. But the FM bldg must be the centrepiece of the whole project, not just an incidental (or even a 'nuisance' for some great planned sceme). I was advocating retaining the 'spirit' of the place - difficult i know, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. So what if you design buildings and spaces deriving from the neo-renaissance of the FM; we need architects and designers with the balls to resist howls of 'pastiche' from the modernist lobby. You don't have to ape old styles, just draw your inspiration from them.
An example: one of the best (and most actively used) spaces in Glasgow is the area (really an elongated triangle) in front of the Concert Hall (an awful neo-1950s lump), with a long prospect down Buchanan street (Grafton St eat your heart out!). It was not 'planned' to be a happening space - it just is. And it links old posh Glasgow (Sauchiehall St) with the new trendy (Buchanan St). So the statue of our esteemed late leader gets a few traffic cones and loses its specs - that's life!
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby gunter » Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:34 pm

johnglas, That fine, it's just you worry me, that's all I'm saying.

That space in front of the concert hall at the elbow of Suciehall st and Buchanin works as a space, surely, because the steps to the shopping centre function like an outdoor theater and the footfalls are huge, again because of the shopping centre.

If you can guarantee a constant supply of people and throw in a few steps you can probably make any urban space work.

The Fruit Market, like Smithfield, is going to have to face the challenge that, there isn't really any reason to be there, unless they can make the spaces themselves, and the uses that are accommodated around it, attractive enough.

I just don't think the architecture is right yet. I know we're only judging it from one render (sorry photo-montage) but to me it's just a coat of white paint away from being a dodgy hotel complex on the Costa Brava.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby johnglas » Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:09 pm

gunter: no need to be worried; I'm quite harmless really (so I'm told). Take your points about footfall and the current design. I still think the FM developed as a mid-end retail, food, pub area (shock, horror) could create such a footfall. Coincidentally, look at the Fruit Market in Glasgow, Designated as a high-end shopping area it was a flop, but now exclusively a noshing and boozing area it works very well (and is full) - the old Fruitmarket Gallery next door is a useful space (the play Black Watch was performed there) and this is adjacent to the City Hall (a refurbished concert venue). Synergy, dear boy, synergy - events, dear boy, events!
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby Maud » Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:39 pm

Maybe I'm architecturally illiterate or something but the first scheme looks much better to me than the latest. The latest one looks a bit gimmicky, it jars with the fruit market buildings, I think simply because the proposed buildings are close to (distance-wise) the modest 19th century ones. It looks a bit claustrophobic. A little children's park in front of the market would have been lovely, and very civic! Then the new buildings wouldn't look like they are about to topple over onto the market buildings. Oh well, I know space is always an issue with these developments!
It's so true, as someone pointed out, that the 19th century buildings really show up the blandness of the proposed ones.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby cgcsb » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:54 pm

has construction started yet? if so, there certainly isn't any visual indications of it
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby jdivision » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:54 pm

They haven't even gone for planning yet. give them a chance
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby archipimp » Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:23 pm

much prefer the first proposal myself, more solid looking like a european style piazza on a more human scale. I could imagine it being lined with cafes while the second feels more like a gimiky shopping centre that will be torn down in ten years.
Also thats not a new square to the north ctesiphon just not part of the development.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby GregF » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:06 am

Will be good to see this neglected area of the city redeveloped, and then there'll be the massive Arnott's redevelopment further up the street. More additions to the city. Any move on the Moore Street Mall debacle? It's dragged on for to long.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby ctesiphon » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:33 am

archipimp wrote:Also thats not a new square to the north ctesiphon just not part of the development.


I wondered about that after I posted, because there's the footprint of a building on the site in that image above. Thanks for the clarification.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby cgcsb » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:19 pm

Is this badly needed project going ahead or is it chopped due to the resession? does anyone have any info?
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby erj10 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:09 pm

Would anyone have any idea who carved the sculptures on the label stops of this building? I am doing a project on this building and have not come up with any concrete attribution yet.

There also seems to be no original plans/drawings/elevations by the original architect Spencer Harty... I would LOVE for someone to tell me otherwise!!
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby StephenC » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:12 pm

Have you tried Christine Casey's Buildings of Dublin? I'll look tomorrow. Also try the Irish Architectural Archive. They might have plans. Or the City Archive in Pearse Street.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby StephenC » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:45 pm

According to Christine Casey:

"Delightful, freely modeled terracotta label stops of fish, fruit and vegetables supplied by Henry Dennis of Ruabon, though the template has been attributed to CW Harrison. The figures of Justice and Fair Trade over the Mary's Lane entrance are by Harrison"

A fabulous book! God bless you Christine.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby Paul Clerkin » Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:19 pm

Is that whole market square scheme now dead with the economy?
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby StephenC » Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:30 pm

Its mentioned in the new City Development Plan. I think it needs to figure more strongly though. Its a shame to see the Markets building degrading already.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby erj10 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:13 pm

Thanks a million StephenC. I had seen that entry, but there are no sources for her claims so I am reluctant to rely on it completely. As Harrison's was the biggest sculptural firm at the time in Dublin as well as the fact that they definitely carved the Justice and Peace figures would lead me to think that the label stops have a high likelihood of being by them. I would just love some primary evidence of the fact! There is nothing in the IAA or in Pearse Street which is a pity.

On the whole issue of the project moving forwards... I was in touch with someone in the planning department who said he'd be very surprised if this did not happen in the next five years.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby StephenC » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:16 am

Some new for this part of the city from today's Irish Times

Dublin business group seeks to revive rejuvenation plans for 'city markets'

The Dublin City Business Association yesterday published the Capel Street and City Markets report which focuses on the Capel Street and markets area as two distinct but linked districts.

OLIVIA KELLY

PLANS TO redevelop Dublin city’s Victorian fruit and vegetable markets and surrounding area that collapsed two years ago are being revived by the Dublin City Business Association (DCBA).

Dublin City Council in 2005 published the Markets Framework Plan, a €425 million urban regeneration scheme for the north inner city area surrounding the Victorian Fruit and Vegetable Market, the former fish market and the Daisy Market.

Under the plan, the wholesale fruit market was to be converted into a high-end retail food market, retaining some wholesalers and introducing restaurants. The fish market site would be turned into a civic square surrounded by shops, offices and apartments, and the Daisy Market would be developed as a three-storey sports, leisure and community centre.

In late 2007 a consortium led by Paddy Kelly, one of the principal developers involved in the regeneration of nearby Smithfield, was selected by the council as the preferred bidder for the regeneration project. Restaurateur Patrick Guilbaud and the Exchequer Street restaurant, wine bar and high-end grocers Fallon Byrne were identified as potential anchor tenants for the scheme.

However, agreements were never signed and Mr Kelly’s property empire subsequently collapsed. Earlier this year, the council sought to turn part of the site, the Daisy Market, into a waste depot and recycling facility but was blocked by councillors.

DCBA yesterday published the Capel Street and City Markets report, which it said is a strategy to rejuvenate the area as a “distinctive shopping environment” and create a “gastronomic centre for the city” without relying on property developers.

The plan focuses on Capel Street and the markets area as two distinct but linked districts. The report notes that the council has had several plans for the regeneration of these areas since the 1990s, but while nearby areas such as Henry Street have improved dramatically over the last two decades Capel Street and the markets have remained substantially run-down.

The centrepiece of the area, the fruit and vegetable market should be rebranded as “City Markets” and developed along the lines of the English Market in Cork with small businesses selling indigenous products. Unlike what the report describes as the council’s “rather grandiose plans” for the markets which are now “unachievable”, the markets should be developed gradually, with the small number of existing fruit and vegetable wholesalers encouraged to develop a retail element where practical.

The council, which still owns the market should upgrade it so it would be suitable and attractive for other food retailers. They in time would attract associated businesses such as restaurants, cafes and cookery schools. Capel Street would then benefit from the increased pedestrian flow of shoppers from Henry Street towards the City Markets.

Almost a quarter of the premises of Capel Street are vacant and others house “undesirable” businesses such as adult shops, or have shop fronts which are inappropriate to the architectural character of the street. The council should use its existing planning powers to eliminate these problems, the report said.

Mary’s Lane, which links Capel Street to the markets should be pedestrianised, it continued, and a new Luas stop should be located behind the markets.

DCBA chief executive Tom Coffey said the initial upgrade of the Victorian market would cost the council less than €1 million and would be a catalyst for the development of the area.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby kefu » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:38 am

Another Luas stop? There's less than 400 yards between the existing ones. If people are too lazy to walk the 200 yards, then I'm not sure they need to be facilitated with another Luas stop to make the journey to Tallaght even more interminable.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby Smithfield Resi » Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:54 am

I wonder what will replace the revenue garnered by DCC running the site of the demolished fish market as a surface car park within those 250 metresof a LUAS stop.

"Extensive surface car parking to the front of developments, which detracts from the character of a centre and discourages pedestrians, should be avoided and parking standards should be in accordance with the relevant Development Plan standards."

"POLICY T2
It is the policy of Dublin City Council to encourage modal change from private car use towardsincreased use of more sustainable forms of transport such as public transport, cycling, and walking, and by encouraging teleworking and carpooling and car-sharing."

"Restrictions on the use and cost of on street
parking will be kept under review and changed,
as necessary, in order to discourage commuter
parking and to facilitate short term parking for
shopping, business and leisure purposes"
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby johnglas » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:59 pm

Since when were 'adult' shops a problem? Too much like shopping for grown-ups (as opposed to the infantile notion of 'retail therapy')?
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