Dublin Fruit Market

Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby aj » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:15 pm

So its not DCC Architects but a group of artist for the studio opposite.

"The Way Wiser Collective are proud to present In Progress, a site-specific animation projected onto DCC Market builing on Little Mary Street. The artwork is part of the local arts festivalGentrify This! Dublin Contemptibles 2 and runs from 13th -30th September, 8pm-9pm.

The projected animation explores the process of gentrification, through an examination of the Victorian tradesmen who built the DCC Market Building. The collective based the drawings on photographs from The National Library (see http://www.dublincityarchitects.ie/?p=98) providing a direct connection with the period; however, during the process the themes transform and become imaginative interpretations.

The Way-Wiser Collective was founded in 2011 with the mission of using visual art to explore latent possibilities in the urban landscape and creating interventions to shift public awareness. The members include Gráinne Tynan, Eimear Tynan, Mark Ferguson and Francis Quinn. They work out of The Market Studios, Dublin 7.

For more information please seehttp://thewaywisercollective.blogspo ... is_10.html and http://dublincontemptibles.wordpress.com/. "
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby aindriu80 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:06 pm

Looks like they are going to turn Dublin's Victorian fruit market into a continental-style market and cafes :crazy: nice !

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer ... -1.1498008

I hope they do a good job. If its a nice place to visit it will do very well.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby StephenC » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:27 am

I welcome it ...but this has been reannounced about 5 times in the past 3 years. Just get on with it!
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby fergalr » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:18 pm

I dream of a day when that bank building on the corner of Little Mary St on the corner of Capel St is torn down to properly extend the vista west from the Spire.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby StephenC » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:45 pm

The ailing Dublin City Business Association and Dublin City Council combined on Tues 25 Feb to host a seminar on A Rejuvenated Dublin City Markets and a piece in the Irish Times follows today:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer ... -1.1704503

The seminar was a rather staid affair, despite the interesting subject matter. Much of the audience must have felt like 'announcement fodder', given that questions or comments from the floor weren't taken. Nevertheless there was the, at least, positive development that we have moved from discussing the Market Hall as a "hidden gem" in the north city to actually doing something about its chronic underuse of the past 20-30 years. At a 'Food in the City' seminar a couple of years back the city council was almost pleasantly surprised to hear that all these ready-made market halls dotted the city - what luck!

The Council is currently undertaking a refurbishment of the Market Hall including repainting the roof and ironwork and replacing electrics etc. Its been ongoing for 2 years now.

http://www.dublincityarchitects.ie/?p=83#more-83

To listen to the City Council officials present, the Markets are being managed in an exemplary manner against the odds, and regular comment was made on the quality of the facade, restored in the late 1990s by DCC and winner of the Europa Nostra Award in 2000. Inevitably those stunning floodlit images abounded. But as we know, the reality is far from these images and as I have frequently commented here and elsewhere the Hall is a filthy, poorly maintained site, covered in graffiti, surrounded by what must be the most dismal public realm in the city.

Nevertheless, the plans of the Council in this instance are very welcome, for the Hall at least. A mix of stall types within and various facilities such as cafes and toilets etc. The Chancery Lane facade is to be removed and replaced with a glass front to allow light and warmth into the Hall. A sheltered area to the front of this will allow for outdoor market stalls. Curiously, no mention was made of the former steel girders etc of the Fish Market which was demolished about 2007. The original Framework Plan vision for the Markets was to reuse its steelwork to add to the Fruit & Veg Market Hall. But sure who knows where this stuff is now. Rumours a few years back were that the entire Fish Market was bought lock, stock and red-brick barrell and transported to Switzerland, a place where they undoubtedly appreciate these things more.

The site of the Fish Market is now a car park, a la the 1980s mode. These new plans are to retain the car park and the long serving city council official who announced the plans paid a rather worrying emphasis on the parking. But it must be recognised that some parking is needed. A much better addition in my view would be to construct a Luas stop on Chancery Lane to serve the Market. The mention of road safety audits and the like suggests that a whole rake of new signs and traffic engineering solutions are being devised for the huge 'conflict' that will inevitably arise here. Its only necessary to walk around the area to see how clutter much abounds; there's hardly a tree or a quality stretch of pavement in sight.

One of the big omissions from the day was the lack of recognition of the wider Markets Area audits poor quality and uninviting public realm. Its not attractive to walk here. Its not a destination. It doesn't feel desirable or safe or interesting. But the wider area must wait.

Also not discussed is how the new retail market will be managed. Who is going to do this? What's the model? I would hardly be confident that the diminishing City Council could do this. But this matter wasnt even addressed, although DCBA did make a plea at the end for an SIV to be established to run the Market, perhaps with them controlling this (?).

The most interesting element of the day undoubtedly came from the visiting delegation from Borough Markets in London. Telling their story of 20 years of progressive development of the markets in Southwark, the former trustee (the markets are not council owned but rather owned and controlled by a Board of Trustees for over 250 years) and the project architect showed just how visionary a project like this can be. What struck me most is the degree of refinement and quality that pervades Borough Markets and the innovative way that the Trustees leveraged additional uses to the area and expanded into the derelict surrounding area, all without demolishing it wholescale (as was proposed under the 2007 plans by DCC and its former partners for Dublin City Markets).

Looking to the wider city, I am not at all confident that air of refinement and quality will establish in the City Markets. This will be a shame, as it is on so many other supposedly 'quality' streets in the city centre.

A Part VIII planning application for the redevelopment will be lodged in March. Work to commence in November and the Markets to open in September 2015. David Brennan of DCBA at least suggested that a limited retail market be established in the meantime to build a profile for the new venture.

A 2012 report by DBCA on the issue can be read here: http://www.dcba.ie/wp-content/uploads/2 ... uarter.pdf
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby Paul Clerkin » Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:30 pm

Plan for a clock tower for the markets... just nothing much changes... plan... drop plan... plan again...

http://archiseek.com/2014/1869-design-f ... xH8xPmwIQc
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby jinx9000 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:45 pm

thanks for that very informative post stephen. i just hope DCC hold the Borough Markets as a yardstick of quality which they will try to match or even better!
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby exene1 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:23 pm

Thanks for post stephen.


Paul Clerkin wrote:Plan for a clock tower for the markets... just nothing much changes... plan... drop plan... plan again...

http://archiseek.com/2014/1869-design-f ... xH8xPmwIQc
Lol I'd remove the round tower bit on the left :wtf: This was presumably to be on the corner of Green Street and Little Britain Street.




Image

This was a 2007 application for an 8 storey building on Little Britain Street. Dublin City Council planning department were brainlessly permitting buildings of any size at the time (2859/07). It was pulled back to 6 storeys on appeal (PL29N.224378), but no changes to the crappy tiger spec rounded glazing ignoring the character of the area. Long expired now.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby thebig C » Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:43 pm

I see your point exene, and would add that had such a structure been built given the peripheral locale it would most likely have stood empty for years.

Having said that, this whole Noth West corner of the City is so appaling from every aspect that literally anything could potentially be an improvement. From a historic point of view, what remains of the original fabric of the area is either gone or mauled almost beyond recognition. Likewise, in contrast to the above proposal, speculative developments in the nineties and noughties (mostly by the bottom feeders of the construction fraternity) have been unambitious pastiche of the worst kind. Likewise, the City Councils attempts at renewal have mostly involved building suburban scale houses resulting in a loss of urban character.

Still, DCC clearly aren't too far out of step as ABP and An Taisce would rather bury their heads in the sand and protect non-existent fabric and protect vistas (of what exactly) to further rob the general area of investment.

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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby rumpelstiltskin » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:29 am

I agree, there's almost nothing in this area worth saving. I can't see a problem with that proposal above, if it improves on the dump that's already there. Where's the loss exactly in removing buildings that are either derelict, or so undistinguished that they were mediocre even at the time they were built? And I don't see the problem with going up a few storeys since we're apparently living in the 21st century, when European capital cities generally don't have one storey warehouses and two storey huts less than a mile from the city's main street.

I think the attitude towards preservation is a bit extreme here sometimes. We should be focusing on improving the quays and preserving Georgian Dublin, not on dreck like this area.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby StephenC » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:52 pm

It would be at least helpful to assess the buildings in the area and determine what might be retained and what could be replaced. Even that hasn't been done. There are some nice little buildings and there are a number of others which, while unremarkable, could be converted to something quite nice with the application of a bit of taste. Again, the surrounds of Borough Markets in London is an example where much of the existing older building stock was retained and reused successfully.

I'm not aware of any architectural assessment of the area.

There are lots that can go.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby GrahamH » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:52 pm

Yes, many of these buildings are essential to the character of the environs of the markets and can be economically regenerated, forming an important part of the brand of the district. Indeed, the defiant notion that everything should be cleared, when virtually everything has already been cleared, is typical of the perverse thinking that goes on in this city.

thebig C wrote:this whole North West corner of the City is so appalling from every aspect that literally anything could potentially be an improvement.


Well no, actually. That's how we've ended up with so much mediocre, incongruous development in Dublin over the past two decades.


Still, DCC clearly aren't too far out of step as ABP and An Taisce would rather bury their heads in the sand and protect non-existent fabric and protect vistas (of what exactly) to further rob the general area of investment.



What is this assertion based on? Any representation it makes is based on urban design principles and upholding provisions of the Dublin City Development Plan.

Trevor White was spot on about the lack of 'empathy' for Dublin in his Irish Times article yesterday. The disturbingly pervasive 'anything is better than nothing' mindset in Dublin, amongst both Dubliners and non-Dubliners, is unquestionably more corrosive than any perceived - and typically inaccurate - 'anti-development', sentiment. In fact, it's one of the greatest insults you can hurl at your city.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby rumpelstiltskin » Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:31 am

Graham, when it comes to this cesspit of an area, anything is better than nothing. And, in fact, nothing would be better than what's there - razing blocks to the ground and paving them with concrete would be better. There's literally no way to salvage whatever character it once had - unless you're going a sort of I don't give a shit/halting site type of vibe. If vainly trying to restore character involves building more ugly two and three storey boxes clad in red brick - I'd rather take the "corporate" eight storey buildings that might actually bring more people to live in a derelict shithole which, being so central in our capital city, verges on a national embarrassment.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby exene1 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:49 am

A most interesting area due to retaining its historic use. For sure, an assessment of the area is needed to determine what is of value. Example of some features here from that Little Britain Street area north of the main markets:




Image

This corner building has a presence and is worth keeping in any future regeneration. It was the Little Green Gallery for a while.




Image

A few doors away one & a bit storeys of an 18th century brick house survives. Nothing much maybe, but should at least be assessed.




Image

Then an interesting little grouping of buildings here on Cuckoo Lane; a goods building with a crane hoist - once seen all over the city but now fairly rare - and a nice pedimented warehouse just out of view behind it.




Image

And this doorway which faces St. Michan's Park / playground needs to be investigated.

Anyway a fuller survey is needed.



That 2007 proposal posted earlier for Little Britain Street is spectacularly non-contextual. Some further images of it here - http://www.dublincity.ie/AnitePublicDocs/00153952.pdf We need to get new development to respond to and add to the character of the city.

Will development ever get going again in the markets area or wider city centre? Who knows. But we need to learn from the past.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby rumpelstiltskin » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:38 pm

That says it all really.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby StephenC » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:19 pm

rumpelstiltskin wrote:Graham, when it comes to this cesspit of an area, anything is better than nothing. And, in fact, nothing would be better than what's there - razing blocks to the ground and paving them with concrete would be better. There's literally no way to salvage whatever character it once had - unless you're going a sort of I don't give a shit/halting site type of vibe. If vainly trying to restore character involves building more ugly two and three storey boxes clad in red brick - I'd rather take the "corporate" eight storey buildings that might actually bring more people to live in a derelict shithole which, being so central in our capital city, verges on a national embarrassment.


I think you are maybe a tad over critical of the area rumpelstilskin. Its certainly dismal but a 'cesspit' might be a bit strong. I agree that its streetscapes are grim and unrelenting...acres of tarmac and cement and not an ounce of quality in everything from lighting to a humble bench.

However, the area does have two attractive housing areas - Ormonde Sq and Church Street dwellings - albeit very suburban in nature. There's a park - Halston Green and some fine buildings surrounding it - St Michan's Catholic, the former Newgate and former Green Street courthouse. There's a number of curiosities which Kevin alludes to above and there's similar on Mary's Abbey. Even within some of those dismal warehouses there are spaces which with imagination could be very interestingly reused...this is especially true of the warehouse at the end of Meetinghouse Lane and also accessed from Capel Street.

Undoubtedly the big boxes of Total and Ffyfes must go and there are a good many decrepit buildings that might be replaced a long Mary's Lane and the block between it and Halston Street. River House on Chancery Street another big behemoth of nothing for the chop. Then comes to the former Fish Market site...now a car park, and proposed by Dublin City Council under the forthcoming Market Part VIII to be.... eh a surface car park. That is missed opportunity if ever.

Its grim - I dont doubt it. Its filthy and uncared for. Streets such as Greek Street are canyons of gloom. There's not a tree in sight but rank after rank of poles and signage. But its not irredeemable and the essential fabric of the place can be captured in any new redevelopment, rather than completely lost in a sterile homogeneous development like that proposed in 2009. Actually getting back to the original 2005 vision might make good sense. A nice sense of urbanism to that I thought.

Dublin City Council is currently devising a 10-point plan for the area as part of the Public Realm Strategy and Brownfield Sites Initiative. Sticky plaster stuff.

It is however, an embarrassment that it has been allowed to descend to its present condition. And even the Council's 'stewardship' of the Fruit & Veg Market Hall is derisory. Not that Council seemed at all to acknowledge at the recent seminar on same. But then, do they ever.

I certainly support more urgency to its rehabilitation....not a 2.5 year paint job of a roof!
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby rumpelstiltskin » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:29 am

I'm all for maintaining character, I just really don't think there's anything left here, aside from one or two buildings. Common sense says Ormond Square should be razed to the ground, and yet I suppose it's quirky that something like that is at that location. However, I really do think this is an area that needs to be mostly razed and redesigned, including the rest of that two storey housing. Something doesn't have to be old to have character, and as the photographs above demonstrate, something which is old doesn't necessarily have character, or isn't necessarily worthy of being saved. I'd be in favour of the council just publishing some firm guidelines on what can and can't be built here, nothing below six storeys for example, and the threat of garroting should anybody complain about shadows, and letting private interests pour their money into the area. Because that's the only way it's getting better in our lifetimes, when even the main street going from Christ Church to the biggest tourist attraction in the country is an unspeakable kip after 20 years of a booming economy.
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby Paul Clerkin » Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:26 pm

1459898_10203439877386876_1489994064_n.jpg


A 1903 report from the Evening Telegraph
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Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby StephenC » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:24 pm

Very sophisticated planning drawing there.
What a great find..and how on earth did you find it....you're attic must be enormous

The application for the restored Market must be due soon
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