Irish say no to PVC windows

Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby GrahamH » Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:34 pm

Oh they're without question timber. Just bad ones.

Of course this whole problem could be solved completely in new builds if people accepted early Georgian glazing bars rather than later ones ;)
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby galwayrush » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:51 pm

Perhaps the best compromise would be to use Traditional single glazing on the windows for the astetics, and have a secondary double glazed inner window / shutters to provide the thermal requirments.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby Devin » Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:37 pm

I'm pretty sure the Capel Street windows were timber, but they do have a plastic moulding-ey look alright.




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Buildings recorded by the NIAH in the early ‘00s have since been PVC’d. Here are just four examples I’ve noticed – three of them because I worked on the survey in question (Kildare) and remember the buildings. God knows how many others there are from all around the country:




Image Image NIAH page

Newbridge, Co. Kildare, 2003




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And the same building now.



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Image NIAH page

Leixlip, Co. Kildare, 2003. The pictures of the NIAH's buildings have been published at such a miniscule size that it’s sometimes hard to even see what kind of windows are in the building, and there aren’t always additional detail shots. But I remember that this building had fine early-19th century sashes.




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And now with PVC.



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Image Image NIAH page

Kilcock, Co. Kildare, 2003. Same problem here. If it wasn’t for the window close-up in ‘Additional Images’ you would scarcely be able to tell that the building had had sashes when it was recorded, and the picture is not quite sharp either.




Image

In any event it’s been all plastic-ed up now. Yum, yum.

PVC-ing of old buildings in Irish towns seems to indicate that the building is going to be used rather than let rot, or even – shock horror – lived in by natives!
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby Devin » Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:47 pm

Image NIAH page

Old building in the Market Square in Blessington, Co. Wicklow, 2004. Again, miserably sized picture and you can just about see the sashes – and no additional photos.




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But it’s really had a bollocking now.






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Prior to work (my pic)



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And look at the numbskull 1970s-style rear extension that's been added along with the PVC, destroying the vernacular form of the building ..... and this just last year to a prominently-sited building in the market square of a town!

It’s wild out there. In the regions, there seems to be a special planning rule that doesn’t appear in any development plan or planning act : if the local building owner wants to invest in his/her building, you bloody well let them do so, in whatever way they see fit …




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At the other end of the Square in Blessington, there is a similar vernacular-Georgian building, marked over on the left.




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Here it is in a 1960s picture.




Image NIAH page

And here it is as recorded by the NIAH in 2004, with PVC Georgian windows.

The building has just been refurbished. Great – an opportunity then to remove the plastic windows and reinstate accurate replicas of the original painted timber sash windows, thus restoring the integrity of the building, right?




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Unfortunately not. Cheap flap stained-timber mock-sashes have just been put in.


What’s the problem Wicklow County Council? You’ve had 7 years now to write Protected Structures and Archit. Conservation Areas in your Development Plan, yet these two significant vernacular buildings in the middle of Blessington have been fouled up within the past year - at least I'm assuming that a lack of P&D Act 2000 protection is why this has happened.

But even if they are not protected, the civilised thing to do now when these type of older buildings come up for repair is to ensure that features and character is appropriately restored - and god knows we can afford to do that these days - and that new extensions are sympathetic, yet all the wrong things have just happened .... It is shameful. What is your policy on older buildings, Wicklow?
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby Conserve A Sash » Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:23 am

Interesting contrast between old and new. Some shocking work.....very short term goals being met.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby Dublin47 » Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:21 pm

Hi,

Can anyone please give me an idea of how much sash windows cost to buy and install? Specifically the sliding single sash window and I would need 3 of them for a typical period red brick house in the Liberties area of Dublin 8.

Also what is the cost difference between buying proper wooden sash windows as described above versus the PVC sash windows? We really want to get authentic wooden ones (the PVC idea repulses me) but we aren't paying for this (help from relatives) and are being pushed toward the PVC version.

Here is a shot of the house as it is now with the current windows...



Thanks
Attachments
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby GrahamH » Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:14 pm

Above replied to in other thread.

More terrible stuff there Devin - the latter house in particular is truly shocking. It's barely even recognisable as the same building, especially with those hideous synthetic slates. What a disgrace.

Image

And that's before it's painted yellow.

It's so sad to see all of these buildings being wrecked before protective measures beinf belatedly introduced. And even then let's face, they don't prevent original fabric from being lost in this country - rather protected structure or ACA leg often simply plays catch-up in forcing reinstatement after the damage is done :mad:. That's what 'protection' regularly amounts to in Oirland.

A heart-warming scene in Drumcondra in Dublin at the minute.

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If nothing else, the PVC door represents a knocking of surely at least €5000 off the value of that property.
Then again Drumcondra is no stranger to plastic, with Bertie's own Edwardian constituency office stuffed to the gills with the stuff.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby Devin » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:14 am

And, as with the politics, the other crowd aren't any better. Check out the backdrop in Chez Enda here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhR2KsrB5GQ



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No building, it seems, is safe from PVC. O’Braoinan’s shop in Castlecomer in Killkenny was cited in Nessa Roche’s 1999 book on the history of Irish windows (‘The Legacy of Light’) as a rare example of a traditional pub-grocer with original features intact.



Image NIAH page

But by the time it came to be recorded by the NIAH in 2003, it’d been PVC’d.



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Image . Image

Not even semi-demolished buildings are safe from PVC! Both pictures above show the remains of the stucco-embellished facade of No. 62 Thomas Street, Dublin, with sash windows still in the 1st floor.



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And, a short time later, after PVC-ing.



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It's not like all this PVCing has continued for want of nothing being done about it. These are from a 1998 report called 'The Plasticisation of Ireland':

Image Image Image

Image Image
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby GrahamH » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:07 am

Ah for crying our loud - O’Braoinan’s just beggars belief! This is just insane! One of the most endearing buildings in that entire book, especially with the setting of the right-hand bay to one side in making the public/private distinction. What a crying shame. And hear was me stupidly thinking at least these buildings would be safe.

And as for the others pictured...
You'd despair. There really is nothing more to be said. Unbelievable :mad:
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Steel Windows

Postby GrahamH » Fri May 11, 2007 2:51 am

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© Devin

As we’ve seen through this thread, the steel window is a part of our built heritage that is not being given the attention deserving of it, and is disappearing at a worrying rate from our urban and suburban streetscapes. Within the next decade it’s most likely that the steel frame will be all but extinct in Ireland, with nothing other than incidental fragments surviving to the odd rear elevation, in modern movement houses with considerate owners on the south side of Dublin, or retained in flagship commercial conservation projects in the occasional urban centre. Although steel is making a comeback in a chunkier form for office developments, the vast majority of our dwindling period stock is surviving purely through neglect - indeed not dissimilar to the timber sash in rural areas - where owners simply don’t have the will or the money, or have lived all their lives with the same windows, to have them replaced with something else.

Period steel windows are of course not without their faults, especially ones made pre-1955 or thereabouts when galvanising was finally introduced to protect from rust. They suffer from various problems including frame distortion, jamming, rusting, and poor sound and heat insulation. Up until recently they also needed to be painted, with decades of once-fashionable thick, gloopy gloss paint contributing to snagging, and detracting from the frames’ smooth, slim line profiles. It’s no wonder people want rid of these windows.

But it is also because of these now-resolvable latter-day faults that the beauty and quality of steel frames are so overlooked. As a result, they now carry the same baggage with the public as even the gems of modern architecture - there’s an impenetrable barricade that just flatly refuses to allow people view them in any other way than ‘ugly and modern’. Without question some were better designed than others, but the majority have an unabashed appeal in being slender and elegant, crisp and modern, and with an underlying hint of an admirable desire to open up their host buildings to the world, in a new light-filled, transparent era. How grand, bright and optimistic the great wine-bricked complexes of 1930’s Dublin must have been in their original forms, before being short-sightedly bastardised with cheap plastic frames, merely contributing to perceptions of the second-rate, and down-at-heel environments.

Of course, whatever of their heritage value, there is little question that steel was the PVC of its age: a cheap, mass-produced, quick-fix solution that could be churned out at lightning speed, and be adapted for use in everything from industrial to commercial to residential applications, the latter also encompassing both public and private housing in urban and suburban locations. It was the wonder material of the inter and post-war years, arriving just in time for the explosion in housing building and the wider construction industry in the UK of the early and mid-twentieth century. It also arrived in Ireland in time for the great slum clearances of the 1920s and 1930s, and their replacement with social housing along modernist lines. It was even advertised in a disconcertingly similar way similar to PVC as we saw earlier.

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However, unlike PVC, steel is both aesthetically pleasing and relatively environmentally friendly - it is most compatible with the dominant architecture of its age (including today), and is easily recycled and repaired. Like early forms of PVC, period steel was not up to standard in terms of heat and sound insulation, nor longevity or rate of recycling. However it has moved on in leaps and bounds since then, whilst PVC remains as the aesthetically stodgy, environmentally disastrous and historically insensitive product it always has been, from production, through its life cycle, to disposal, in spite of improvements in insulation and security.

Steel, relative to timber is still environmentally damaging to produce - albeit not as much as PVC - due to pollutants emitted and the enormous amounts of energy consumed during production. However once steel has been created, it can be easily recycled over and over again, using only a quarter of the initial energy (this time electricity) consumed to produce it, and with minimal discharges. The steel industry now relies on scrap/recycled steel for a third of all steel in circulation, and increasingly so. Steel windows can be easily recycled, and in theory recycling old units could actually help contribute to the cost of replacement frames were proper procedures in place, such is their value as scrap metal. Construction scrap like steel window frames is also one of the easiest metal products to recycle as there’s little to separate: for example, over 95% of certain types of structural steel like I-beams and plates are recycled in the UK. Hence when period steel frames come to the end of their life, it could be argued that recycling them returns steel back into the lifecycle, to be replaced - in theory – with the same volume of recycled steel. Unfortunately global demand for the metal at the moment is such that twice as much raw steel is created as is recycled annually, so in spite of the principle, a small gesture like replacing domestic window frames with recycled steel makes little difference in the current market.


Steel windows gradually replaced iron window frames, used mainly in industrial buildings and churches, in the early 20th century, but really arrived in Ireland following the destruction of Dublin’s north inner city in 1916 and 1922, and Cork’s city centre in 1920. Their subsequent reconstructions offered the ideal opportunity to put this new material to the test in modern commercial architecture.

One of its first uses was in the rebuilding of what is now the Supermacs building on Lower O’Connell Street in Dublin, completed c.1918.

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On initial impression, the traditional leaded lights belies the nature of the modern material. Curiously, it would appear that the bay decorative swags are also of cast metal, probably iron.

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Across the road, the current Ulster Bank building made minimal use of the material c.1921-23.

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While further down, the Grand Central building also features highly elegant steel frames, complemented with timber sashes.

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A lovely tilting specimen.

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The same can be said of the Garda station on the Upper street from the mid-20s, relegating the (probably still cheaper) timber sash to the attic storey.

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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby GrahamH » Fri May 11, 2007 3:00 am

In Cork, Grants on Patrick’s Street was also built with slim line steel windows in the 1920s.

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While one of the most elegant uses of that period was surely Manfield Chambers on Lower O’Connell Street in Dublin, with its gracious pivoting casements still surviving on some of the floors from c.1917-18, now also featuring secondary timber-framed glazing.

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Alas the uppermost steels, in a similar style to those below, were removed around the 1970s.

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More survive across the road from 1920.

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The largest use of them, possibly in the country at that time for a commercial application, was in the rebuilding the Gresham Hotel c.1926-29. Alas none but the magnificent ground floor frames survive today, the upper floors having been replaced with aluminium about thirty years ago.

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What grand survivors – thankfully they simply would have been too expensive to replace, and with little practical gain being in a public area.

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The top-opening lights are barely noticable, while they also feature beautiful hot-rolled latches.

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Unbelieveably they seem to have been painted blue at one stage!

Charming diminutive rectangles also survive to either end of the main façade.

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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby GrahamH » Fri May 11, 2007 3:07 am

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In their most recent planning application, the Grssham proposed the reinstatement of all original steel frames to the O’Connell Street elevation – what a dramatic lift it would make for. Here it is in all its original steel-windowed glory in the 1940s, with balcony still intact.

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It looks stunning with the windows painted black too.

In the mid-1930s, the Pearl Insurance building that’s now part of the Westin Hotel on Westmoreland Street also made use of steel frames in its elegant neoclassical elevations, probably the starkest contrast in architecture and window design yet used in the capital.

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It appears these were restored in the c.2000 conversion with weather-stripping and new handles, while secondary white aluminum glazing was inserted to the interior.

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A contemporaneous use of the material would also be the Dr. Quirkey’s building on Upper O’Connell Street.

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A typical light industrial use would be this building on Great Strand Street, near the Lotts, with a highly curious timber shingle façade.

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The steel frames add an elegant lightness of touch even to a surly building such as this.

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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby GrahamH » Fri May 11, 2007 3:15 am

But of course it is not the grand neoclassical buildings of the 1920s that are at risk of losing their steel windows, now being so prized as icons of their age – rather it is the average residential street that is being left bereft of one of their most striking features thanks to a merciless obsession with thoughtless window replacement in this country. ‘Getting the windows done’ is as hot a topic of conversation as the market for their host properties is. It’s a pity so much hot air couldn’t be diverted into the sensitive appraisal of the various options available.

As we’ve seen, steel emerged as a major alternative to timber in the 1920s and 1930s, but it didn’t really catch on for typical developer-driven residential applications in the suburbs until around 1950, when metal supplies returned to normal after the war. Previously its residential use in Ireland was largely confined to one-off modernist houses of the 1930s, unlike in the UK where developers were already widely using the material. It was only in the late 1930s that it began to take off here, by which stage the war had kicked in and supplies quickly dried up. It is these average suburban houses that are so at risk from losing their most interesting features to vastly inferior and insensitive replacements.

As pictured at the start, this is now a highly unusual scene in an Irish suburb – one would be very hard-pressed to see this replicated anywhere else.

Devin wrote:Image


Indeed even by modern window standards, on uniformity alone, it is highly unusual to experience such a pleasing coherent streetscape.

I have been able to take some images up-close of some typical steel frames in an average suburban house built in 1951, and in spite of their poor (and fixable) condition, their beauty still shines through. One of the greatest 'image' problems that steel windows have is their tendency to be associated with old-fashioned homes, décor and net curtains. Stripping these aside reveals a wonderful clarity of design and proportion.

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And for once you can now appreciate their slim and elegant profiles, and indeed the original imperfections of the drawn glass.

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A typical 1950’s toilet/washroom division, with stippled glass.

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No doubt many a football has gone through the panes, hence the patchwork appearance.


Inside the silhouette is striking - what a beautiful feature for any room. How could anyone even contemplate five inch plastic bars, and patronisingly toy-like moulded handles?

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And of course, the handles: elegantly crafted and a joy to look at and use. Almost icons in themselves.

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Also attractively moulded support arms.

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And of course typical casement armatures]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Dublin1/Dublin%20Archiseek/Steel%20Windows/SuburbanHouseSteel6.jpg[/IMG]


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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby GrahamH » Fri May 11, 2007 3:20 am

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Indeed here is one of Hope’s advertisements from 1958, extolling their experience through their fit-out of a major state office building outside Birmingham.

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Presumably most steel frames were imported to Ireland.

The casements extend outwards so beautifully – strong but light, they allow almost uninterrupted views and a flood of light into the room.

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They are supported on trademark external hinges that protrude to the sides of the frame, here seen on a bay window.

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Top-opening lights also feature external hinges, however all opening parts are remarkably discreet as a result.

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A charming feature of these windows is the consideration of the 1950’s housewife and her net curtains – you can see these studs have been provided to support the lines :)

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Of course steel windows are not without their problems – indeed these frames suffer from various structural problems that essentially make them unusable anymore. As one might imagine, the armatures have seized up in places, while the casements and top lights are now so tight as to make opening or closing them a near impossibility. It took two hands and half my body weight to open the above casement, and about five minutes to close it again! Ironically they offer fantastic security as they ‘mature’! There’s also substantial degrading paintwork, and extensive rusting to the interior due to condensation. These windows were not galvanized. The joys of period steel frames.

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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby GrahamH » Fri May 11, 2007 3:23 am

It’s no wonder people want the quick-fix solution, as Devin has shown us.

Devin wrote:Image Image

Image Image

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Steel doors were also unusual in Ireland, and yet these are also being replaced with horrendous PVC in a piecemeal fashion in the Mespil House complex in Dublin.

Devin wrote:Image



Here a c.1960 house in Whitehall has retained its elegant steel frames, while the house next door has replaced them with, it has to be said, relatively unoffensive aluminium, as the grid pattern has been maintained.

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This was the most favoured replacement material for steel until the 1980s – not having to paint anymore was viewed as its greatest incentive, even though thermal efficiency was equally poor.


Unfortunately the biggest problem in Ireland is that there doesn’t seem to be anybody who produces or restores steel windows anymore, or even that specialises in them as part of wider metalworking. And because that type of service isn’t in the public consciousness (goodness knows even timber’s having a hard time of it), these frames simply get dumped, deemed to be old-fashioned, inefficient, and irreparable. Which is not the case.

There are a number of large firms operating in a nationwide basis in the UK that design, produce, install and restore steel windows; indeed some are the same firms that operated in the early 20th century, notably Crittall and Clement, which are still going strong today. There is an enormous steel window restoration industry in the UK, catering for the vast ageing stock of the 20th century housing boom – by contrast it’s as good as non-existent in Ireland. Indeed such is the level of restoration taking place in the UK, coupled with the renewed demand for steel windows in commercial structures and new-build residential today, business is as good as ever.

Restoration of steel frames like those pictured above entails removing them to the workshop, the stripping back of old putty and paint, brushing or pickling off of rust which usually appears much worse than it is, the welding of replacement parts if necessary, hot-dip galvanizing to protect from rust, and then coating with a polyester powder which comes in a variety of colours and finishes, and usually lasts 15-20 years. The windows can be painted as normal thereafter. This whole process is much cheaper and obviously more environmentally sound than replacement with new steels, or even PVC. Some period steel frames can also be double-glazed, and of course all can be weather-stripped. All newly made steel reproductions can be double-glazed to a minimum of 14mm, with impressive U-values provided gas-filled cavities and low-E glass is used.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby GrahamH » Fri May 11, 2007 3:29 am

An example of a double-glaze retrofit in Ireland is the former Dunlop factory on Upper Stephen Street in Dublin, recently refurbished as Dunnes Stores’ new headquarters.

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It has a magnificent array of industrial steel frames from when the building was built around 1930.

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As can be seen, its elegant glazing bars have been fitted with double-glazed panels to make them more efficient.

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They appear to be 14-16mm units.

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And not notable from even a moderate distance.

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A job exceptionally well done. One would wonder if these were refurbished in this country at all…
Even the Department of Environment’s Architectural Heritage Protection Guidelines make but a passing reference to steel windows in a small paragraph, and with a single clichéd photograph of the former Department of Industry and Commerce building on Kildare Street as an example, out of the hundreds of timber window pictures in the document.


So it is possible to restore and/or cast replicas of steel windows, as well as update many to modern-day requirements. The two biggest UK firms, Crittall and Clements still make and restore them, and have excellent websites, amonst others.

http://www.clementwg.co.uk/home/
http://www.crittall-windows.co.uk/menu.html
http://www.re-view.biz/restoration-steel.html


Crittall sent over their brochure to me, and they make some really beautiful stuff. A pity they’ve no distributer in Ireland. It would appear they have since absorbed Hope’s too.

If there are restorers in Ireland, it’s a pity they wouldn’t make themselves a little more known. Our steel window heritage doesn’t have that much time left.

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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby mackers » Fri May 11, 2007 10:14 pm

GrahamH wrote:

Image Image



Great stuff as always, Graham.

I clearly haven't appreciated the impact of 'the winders' to even modest suburbia - how a well-proportioned, even handsome semi-d like this can be transformed so dramatically into something so ugly! :eek:

Surely this is a case for mandatory planning permission for window frame changes?
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby niamhy0101 » Thu May 17, 2007 9:17 pm

hi my family are doing up our grandparents house and are trying to get me to agree on aluminium sash windows because apparently "there's nobody around anymore with the skill to restore or make new decent timber ones". if anyone can give me a name or number of a decent company around leinster who can do the job it would be greatly appreciated. thanks
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby GrahamH » Sun May 20, 2007 3:59 am

Hi Niamh - from the sound of things, you already know that it's very possible to get timber windows restored or replaced, and possibly cheaper than total replacement, so no need to persuade you there.

The Irish Georgian Society has a list of experienced joiners on their site. It may seem terribly posh and conservation-focused, but these are all ordinary joiners, many of which do standard carpentry as well as more specialised work. I'd imagine most would be versed in the restoration of windows. If you rang the IGS, they may be able to guide you more specifically.

http://www.igs.ie/register/index.html


Sash Windows Ireland seem to be the biggest restorers nationally, though they don't endear themselves to me with their promotion of PVC use in old buildings.

http://www.sashwindows.ie/restoration.html


Marvin Architectural are another - don't know as to their quality.

http://www.marvin-architectural.com/owner/home.html


This post by cobalt is very helpful - it lists many.

http://www.archiseek.com/content/showpost.php?p=40015&postcount=136


There's also the Yellow Pages - you'd be surprised...
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby Conserve A Sash » Wed May 30, 2007 1:30 pm

Hi Niamh,

We replace and renovate sash windows across Munster. We have an excellent reputation and have a website for you to check out. http://www.conserveasash.com - it is being updated soon with a bigger gallery and detailed out line of our renovation service. Our range of work includes domestic to protected structures. Drop me an email if you have any questions.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby GrahamH » Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:08 am

6/8/2007

I'm not sure if this is more suited to the Dundalk thread, but this thread seems to be increasingly covering vernacular stock as well as windows, so is perhaps more apt.

Up until recently, this delightful relic of times past stood picturesquely derelict on Church Street in Dundalk, leading into the main street of the town. A late 18th century merchant's townhouse, it was clearly modifed around 1900 to accommodate a retail premises, with elegant timber shopfront added and its Georgian sash windows replaced with more fashionable plate.

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The fast-disappearing soft pink paint also a distinctive remnant of 1930's vernacular decorative treatment.

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It suffered a small fire recently - all round a great opportunity for sensitive restoration.


Only, this is what it looked like during the works.

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And completed as of a few weeks ago.

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The late Victorian plate replaced with mock-Georgian sashes, and a hideous boxy plywood concoction tacked onto the ground floor.

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What a monstrous contrivance. On a protected structure, in an ACA!
Similarly, the delightful Edwardian shopfront has received equally ridiculous 'heritage' treatment, with B&Q mouldings Pritt Sticked about its facade. They look even more incongruous in real life.

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There were three sensitive options for this development: 1) Leave the ground floor residential window as it was, 2) Install a matching timber shopfront to that of the 1900 model on the other side, or 3) Install a decent contemporary interpretation. Instead we got the worst of all worlds - a typical developer piece of rubbish that compromises the entire building.

Similarly, why were the Victorian plates just dumped? Why ditch one aspect of the building's history and retain another (shopfront)? Indeed if nothing else, the plate would at least have offered the opportunity for efficient double glazing. Instead, we have historically inaccurate, single-glazed, rubbishy mock-Georgian sashes in their place.

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While decent enough from afar, if a tad chunky for the 1780s...

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...up close they're cheaply and clunkily beaded.

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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby GrahamH » Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:22 am

And already falling apart.

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What pray tell, is the logic of these yokes?


What was once an intriguing, readable, well-proportioned vernacualar building is now just another piece of developer tat, smothered in yet more ubiqutous slurry of yellow paint. And how crass is the colour of the shopfronts.

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As if to confirm the superficiality of the whole restoration, the chimney stack and degenerating roof have received no attention - the first on the list of any decent job.

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It's a shame to have to be negative on this, but really - there are so few elements to get right with a classical vernaular, and they've failed on all fronts. Even when protected and ACA listed.
I see An Taisce submitted on the application - can't see what it says online.

Just around the corner in a separate development we have this plastic delight installed in a rubble stone warehouse conversion :rolleyes:

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Nonetheless Dundalk, like many towns, is a treasure trove of vernacular design - it has street upon street of the most amazing period housing stock with original features. They're so exciting to explore, and many are impressively ACA-protected, even if this means little on the ground.

Just look at this wee fella round the corner from the above development :)

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It's like a wendy house, with the most fantastic fenestration! There's so much of this type of domestic architecture in the town. Alas I'd no choice to photograph it given it's up for sale - those sashes are quite likely for the chop :(

And located in a delightful pair of cottages, the neighbouring one featuring once uber-cool early plate.

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Lovely roofscape too.
GrahamH
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby GrahamH » Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:42 am

The neighbouring house has beautifully maintained sashes, sadly such a rarity in Irish towns.

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Around the side it has a classic Edwardian 'seaside sash' on the staircase - these are quite common in this area, as it's near a river.

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They tend to be more popular near water for some reason; maybe it's just the Edwardian tendency to build near water lol. Nice bit of cylinder in there for the nerds amongst us. *whistles*

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A grand late-Victorian streetscape nearby - lots of original features.

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Magnificent windows in a delighful corner building on Chapel Street - what survivors! The 'grand' public facade to the street has later plate installed in the original sashes :)

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Across the road, another amazing step back to the early 20th century. A lovely Victorian in the classic 'Dublin style'.

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And for what its worth, nearby, an incredibly enormous chinmey atop a miniscule vernacular terrace. What on earth?!

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Surely a bakery orginally.

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It's sights like these that make Irish towns a joy to visit :)
GrahamH
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby Devin » Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:14 am

The sooner we get to the end of this page the better! There are so many images on it now that it even hops around for several minutes with broadband!


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GrahamH wrote:Image

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The late Victorian plate replaced with mock-Georgian sashes, and a hideous boxy plywood concoction tacked onto the ground floor.
This is a big problem –]http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/131/deanstterraceqb5.jpg[/IMG]

Circa 2003 photo of No. 4 Dean Street (on the left), one of a group of three unlisted late Georgians opposite St. Patrick’s Cathedral, and the last one with original sash windows remaining.




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During a recent refurbishment, the remains of an older shopfront was uncovered.




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But sadly neither the old shopfront nor sashes with old glass were repaired and here is the finished job, with new, badly-detailed ‘traditional’ shopfront and sash windows, both in gic brown :(




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Just as an example of the inconsistency of the Dublin Record of Protected Structures, there is another group of 3 houses - occupied by our friend Spar - adjacent to the Dean Street ones on Patrick Street (on the left, above), probably dating to the same time (the yellowey brickwork is due to a recent over-zealous cleaning). These groups of houses would’ve been built in the early 19th century to improve the setting of the cathedral.

But the Patrick Street ones are Protected Structures yet the Dean Street ones are not!
Devin
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby Devin » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:37 pm

............... Filling up the last post to avoid yet more images on this page .........
Devin
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