Irish say no to PVC windows

Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby corkdood » Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:17 pm

Thanks Graham and all for your opinions.

I think I wil look into the restoration route as suggested.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby GrahamH » Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:39 pm

Above all corkdood, just about everyone who gets their windows restored are delighted with the outcome. If you do get them done, and stand watching as the newly restored heavy sashes are put back in as they were 60 or 70 years ago, and you see and feel the quality and how smoothly they operate, you'll kick yourself for even of thinking going any other route :)
They will make for a great investment.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby magicbastarder » Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:13 pm

apols if this has been posted before, but it seems to have happened recently, but here's a building i pass on blessington street - looks horrendous, and the asymmetric top floor windows make it look unbalanced.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby corcaighboy » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:40 pm

I took this snap back in August in Cork and it is somewhat depressing. The building in question is the VEC building on Paul Street, across from St. Peter & Paul's Chuch. The building obviously is quite beautiful but this awful PVC replacement job does it no favours. Looks both ugly and cheap.

<a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/4263/picturesfrompanasonic470ke5.jpg" border="0" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" /></a>
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby Devin » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:41 pm

Ohh, that's a bad one! From a public body too ...
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby galwayrush » Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:15 am

i'm involved in the Joinery business and in the past 18 months, i have noticed a strong return to wood.of course i have put wood windows into the house i'm building at the moment, but i have got comments from some neighbours along the lines of " wood? but what about the maintenance?"
I try to explain the virtues of wood regarding maintenance, charachter and it being enviromentally friendly compared to plastics, but a lot of the time, i'm wasting my breath.they just don't get it.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby GrahamH » Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:51 pm

:)

I'm surprised these people don't line their interior walls with PVC panels to save themselves the hassle of 'maintenance' or redecorating every few years.

Different windows on the same Paul St VEC building, from last year:

Image
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby shelly81 » Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:35 pm

Interesting & informative post. What do you guys think of sliding sash in new builds? We've nearly decided on a 2 over 2 timber sash. Having no particular historical knowledge are there any particular design features we should be careful not to mix?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby galwayrush » Sun Nov 12, 2006 1:42 am

shelly81 wrote:Interesting & informative post. What do you guys think of sliding sash in new builds? We've nearly decided on a 2 over 2 timber sash. Having no particular historical knowledge are there any particular design features we should be careful not to mix?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

The modern Sash Window can now have the thermal qualities of gas filled "k" double glazing and look exactly like the original windows from yester years. Georgian or curved / gothic designs can be stuck onto the glass, achieving the " narrow" bar traditional look, Weights are not normally used any more, we now use a special weight balanced spring mechanism that is competely hidden from view, and all parting beads are draughtproofed using special seals.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby Rusty Cogs » Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:48 pm

galwayrush wrote:The modern Sash Window can now have the thermal qualities of gas filled "k" double glazing and look exactly like the original windows from yester years. Georgian or curved / gothic designs can be stuck onto the glass, achieving the " narrow" bar traditional look, Weights are not normally used any more, we now use a special weight balanced spring mechanism that is competely hidden from view, and all parting beads are draughtproofed using special seals.


I don't think bits of framing 'stuck onto the glass' is going to look like anything other than reproduction muck, IMHO.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby galwayrush » Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:40 am

Rusty Cogs wrote:I don't think bits of framing 'stuck onto the glass' is going to look like anything other than reproduction muck, IMHO.

If done properly, it looks very like the traditional sash window, The timber is moulded to a traditional profile, and is used on both sides of the glass, with a flat parting bead between the two panes of glass on the double glazed unit. otherwise it would be impossible to include double glazing without having the bars a minimum of 40MM
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby cobalt » Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:19 pm

galwayrush wrote:it would be impossible to include double glazing without having the bars a minimum of 40MM

Is this really the minimum? I was going to explore the possibility of double glazing in my windows but bars 40mm wide just wouldn't be on - nor would sticking on a framework that makes it look like the window has separate panes. Guess I'll just have to do without.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby galwayrush » Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:40 am

cobalt wrote:Is this really the minimum? I was going to explore the possibility of double glazing in my windows but bars 40mm wide just wouldn't be on - nor would sticking on a framework that makes it look like the window has separate panes. Guess I'll just have to do without.

I'm afraid so, double glazing requires a 5 MM air circulation gap around the edges of the unit, so add a min. 10 MM extra coverage for the glazing slip makes it 15MM each side and 10 MM in the middle is the bare minimum required to attach the slips each side.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby GrahamH » Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:14 am

How do you mean it 'wouldn't be on', cobalt, to have glazing bars applied to the surface of the glass? Granted, the notion sounds preposterous and truly hideous in concept, but in execution it's quite a good compromise.
As featured earlier on the thread, here are Wynns Hotel's in Dublin doubled glazed sash windows as newly installed about two years ago:

http://www.archiseek.com/content/attachment.php?attachmentid=692&stc=1&d=1114559190

http://www.archiseek.com/content/attachment.php?attachmentid=691&stc=1&d=1114559161

Installed in a fine c.1920 neoclassical granite building, they make an admirable attempt at timber sash reproduction using modern double glazing and bar application. The glazing bars are applied to the surface of the glass internally and externally using industrial adhesive tape. Fair enough, the bars look ever so slightly fake, but that's as much down to their lack of depth as their surface mounting. This could probably improved on. The frame detailing is also a bit clunky, but at least the dodgy horns of the top floors are nothing to do with double glazing!

As for going with timber sash windows on a new build shelly81, why go traditional at all? A crisp modern sash is as good as anything, as used across Europe and the US. The sash shouldn't be deemed as being olde worlde.

I've seen this modern spring system in use galwayrush - springs incased in small plastic (though painted) tubes, and used in this instance for hauling incredibly heavy, large hardwood double glazed one-over-ones. Franky a lot are jammed, in spite of being only ten years old and with minimal use. I wonder as to the effectiveness of this method. Also, could you describe in more detail how it works?
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby cobalt » Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:06 pm

GrahamH wrote:How do you mean it 'wouldn't be on', cobalt, to have glazing bars applied to the surface of the glass? Granted, the notion sounds preposterous and truly hideous in concept, but in execution it's quite a good compromise.
As featured earlier on the thread, here are Wynns Hotel's in Dublin doubled glazed sash windows as newly installed about two years ago

The building's listed. The windows are in a terrible state (cracked glass and rotten frames) - I got a guy out to look at them and he was of the opinion that they'd have to be replaced, not repaired. If I'm getting new windows, I'd like to them to be as energy efficient as possible, but at the same time as close to the originals as possible. If I could just put 2 layers of glass in rather than one, and have them otherwise identical to the originals, that would be great. But I wouldn't want to change the dimensions of the glazing bars (which are quite narrow). And having a stuck-on frame would just annoy me with its falseness every time I looked at it. Besides, I doubt the planning authorities would permit it... although surely Wynn's is listed? How did they manage that?
I know Ventrolla is permitted - I need to look into it more. Also, I presume I could (single) glaze with high efficiency glass - how effective/costly would the best quality single glazing be in comparison with conventional glass double-glazed?
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby GrahamH » Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:42 pm

I'd agree with you regarding the stuck-on panes getting irritating the more you look at them :) - effective perhaps for an hotel or similar, but in an intimate domestic setting they're perhaps overly obvious. This is possibly how Wynns as a protected building got away with it - a city centre hotel with all the attendant urban noise intruding on guest bedrooms could have been looked at with an element of sympathy by planners. And the sashes were 'only' 80 years old, and probably had modern glass.

Given how relatively new this product is to the market, I've no idea how planners view its use in protected structures, cobalt - others would be better placed to answer. If I was in your position, I'd probably go out of my way to retain as much of the original frames and glass as possible, but failing that, reproduction sashes with high performance single glazing is definitely the best option in fulfilling both aesthetic and most insulation requirements. No idea as to cost for such glass.

But again the old chestnut raises its head - what exactly is 'energy efficient'? That is, if you don't have room-by-rrom themostatically controlled heating, having doubling glazing isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference either to your consumption of energy or your fuel bills. If your heating is turned on and left on as it is in most people's homes without constantly sampling room temperature and turning off accordingly, double glazing, and indeed arguably any insultation, is as good as redundant insofar as fuel consumption is concerned.

Not that this should in any way be used as an excuse in older buildings - as every building should have room thermostats - but it's also a simple reality that most properties do not. And even if you do, well heating is generally put on in the evening, when shutters are closed and curtains are drawn. The generally modest sash window is by no means the elephant in the room as far as insulation is concerned, unlike walls and ceilings, and they even feature shutters unlike expansive 70s picture windows.
Just some points to consider...

Secondary internal glazing is also an option, and can work well in some cases. But generally I've yet to see a good example for Georgian or Victorian sashes (casements adopt it much better). With the former, it also tends to ruin the architecture of the internal sash and shutter ensemble :(
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby joyce » Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:15 pm

I work for Bolgers/Ventrolla and there are alot of options instead of double glazing. Also if it's for draughtproofing, our Ventrolla System is as efficient as double glazing.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby Devin » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:11 am

Some good news on the PVC, er, front for a change. Hanlon's pub on NCR, from the very start of the thread, has had its awful brown woodgrain PVC windows replaced back to wooden sliding sashes :) .
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby Conserve A Sash » Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:48 pm

Hi Guys,

This is my first time posting here. I have read discussion with interest and am agreement with many points. We restore and manufacture sash windows in Co. Kerry servicing all over Munster.

We are being asked to quote for a lot of new build and have noticed a definite increase in business from pretty savvy customers. Like the member from Galway, to achieve the double glazing for Georgian 6/6 our glazing bar needs to be 35 mm for a 20mm Double Glazed unit. Since the turn of the year we are constantly being asked for 1.1 U Value Glass which is 20mm. There is no way to achieve the tradiontal and correct Georgian look with this spec. You have to use the stick on system with inserts. I agree it will suffice for large scale developments.

We try to keep our customers to 14mm double glazed units allowing us to achieve the georgian look and are currently reducting our 35mm bar down below 30mm still not 100% tradional.


I think sash windows and timber windows are full of character and are far more environmentally friendly. Our business allows us to keep old skills alive. Show me a 100 year old PVC window! They are unproven over the long term. We recently refurbished sash windows that were well over 100 years. They turned out exceptionally well. While I have self interest at heart regards sash windows I also believe our surroundings are enhanced by them. PVC is not what we need in this country any more and we have completed two jobs this month where the old pvc was ripped out and traditional sash put back in. The pity with PVC when it is fitted is the old boxes are damaged in the process. That is my two cents.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby Devin » Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:49 pm

Thanks for that. Good to hear you're concerned to get an accurate glazing-bar look when making Georgian windows within the constraints of double glazing.

PVC is wretched, to be sure! A product of the petro-chemicl industry.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby GrahamH » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:25 pm

I'm surprised to hear that you can use any double glazing and still retain an authentic look, Conserve A Sash - do 14mm units really allow this? What is the thickness of the glazing bar in that case? Do you have any pictures of your units like this in action? Many thanks.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby Conserve A Sash » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:02 pm

Hi Graham,

I will post pics when we complete our next job on this. As discussed it is difficult. In the last month glass and UV spec have been the number 1 request from customers. Consequently we have responded by starting to use 20mm units and the glazing bar will not be tradional. The only way is to keep it single. The majority of our business is conservation so the issue doesn't arise to often. We would love to keep the look on new windows. We rocommend that if you want an authentic Georgian look you go single glazed. No other way around it. With 14 mm unit we are trying to get the glazing bar as thin as possible but the result will never be traditional.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby Conserve A Sash » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:06 pm

PS Graham if you read my post it states

"We try to keep our customers to 14mm double glazed units allowing us to achieve the georgian look and are currently reducting our 35mm bar down below 30mm still not 100% tradional."

The 100% traditional look cannot be achieved with Double Glazing on Georgian windows - we would never state that we could! We try and get as close as possible. We have found recently most customers understand it cannot be achieved.
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby Devin » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:12 pm

‘Conserve A Sash’, I want to give this example of a glazing bar type that is beginning to be seen a lot and ask you what you think:




Image

No. 6 Capel Street (seen at the end of the block, above) had some funny windows on the first floor until recently. But they’ve now been replaced with 2-over-2 sashes as on the upper floors, a welcome measure to improve the design unity of the façade and the terrace as a whole.



Image

Image

But unfortunately the new windows (above) have the thick, clumsy glazing bar you associate with sub-divided, double-glazed sashes, and it jars with the slender bars of the existing old windows on the upper floors imo. A small thing perhaps, but they're becoming quite common. Can this glazing bar in double-glazing be improved upon in your opinion, or, as joyce from Bolgers/Ventrolla maintains, it would be better to stick with single glazing; there are options which are just as efficient as double-glazing?
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Re: Irish say no to PVC windows

Postby Conserve A Sash » Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:31 pm

They are pretty ugly. I think those windows are not timber, I may stand corrected on that one. Joyce is pretty on the ball to be honest. To get the narrow glazing bar it has to be single glazed or you can go the stick on route which in this setting would suffice. I know the street well and has come on lot in recent years still a way to go though. They look like pvc sash or some type of import I haven't come across. I would be interested to find out though if anyone knows.
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