Bricklayers Guild Hall

Cuffe Street Guild Hall?

Postby Paul Clerkin » Tue Jun 20, 2000 5:43 pm

Looking back through the old board system that used to be on this site, i found this query... any ideas....


Posted by Eamon Moriarty on July 10, 1998 at 00:29:44:

There was an letter in yesterday's edition of 'The Irish Times' about a former Guild Hall in Cuffe Street that was removd for road widening and the facade stored away. Does anyone know any more about this?
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Postby kieran burns » Thu Jun 29, 2000 7:02 pm

Don't qoute me on this but I think it may be the hall of the weaver's guild - I recall the letter you mention and have wondered about it myself, and also recall seeing an image of the building still standing in this Century, most probably a National Library or Museum image- it looked like an early 18th Century building, with a facade not unlike that of the old markets on Francis Street though obviously much older- this may be a little mixed up so I'll check it out.
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Bricklayers Guild Hall

Postby zozimus » Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:13 pm

In late 1984 Cuffe Street was being widened, and I remember this building being carefully taken apart.

It was a very painstaking process with everything numbered and crated. The understanding was that it was meant to be reinstated when the widening was complete.

However it disappeared never to be seen again. I passed by the site yesterday and the (temporary?) hoarding is still there.

Anybody remember it, or even better, know where it is now?
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Postby zozimus » Mon Jul 26, 2004 11:24 am

Did a bit of digging last night and found this ruling:

http://www.ucc.ie/law/restitution/archive/irelcases/brick.htm

As far as I can make out from the legaleese, the Corporation paid the bricklayers money to take the building down and then put it back up, but they never did and the Corporation tried to get the money back, but failed.

Stalemate I guess.

I wonder if the crates are in the same warehouse as the floozie?
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Postby JL » Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:56 pm

oh if only they could retroactively do an Archer's Garage on it...
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Postby Zap » Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:00 pm

Any photo of this building?
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Postby PVC King » Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:34 pm

Originally posted by JL
oh if only they could retroactively do an Archer's Garage on it...


You mean surround it in buildings of a mediocre quality?
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Postby Paul Clerkin » Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:03 am

I've never seen a picture of this. Not in any books I own. If anyone can find a picture to post, I'd be very interested in seeing it.

I'm starting to believe that there's a warehouse in Dublin like in Raider of the Lost Ark, where loads of bits of buildings and statues are stored ;)
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Postby GrahamH » Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:34 am

Ahh - what dreams are made of...

What side of the - cough - 'street' was it on? What an interesting piece of info.
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Postby Zap » Wed Jul 28, 2004 10:31 am

I've read Peterson's Heart of Dublin. There's a few things Perterson mentions as having been dismantled and put into storage by the Corpo - gateways, impressive Georgian doorways, statues from buildings long since demolished etc. - I wonder also where is this storage. And what will ultimately become of such items?

For example I read that Guinness bought all the amazing statues from the amazingly impressive Irish House pub on Wood Quay before its demolition in the 1960's and put these into storage.

I've also read that the facade of the old Abbey Theatre is also in storage.

I wonder also is this actually myth or is there such a place?
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Postby Rory W » Wed Jul 28, 2004 11:46 am

Can anyone else visualise a 'Raiders of the lost Ark' style warehouse....
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Postby GrahamH » Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:30 pm

The very idea is spine-tingling!

The Abbey's definitely in storage - I think a private individual has/had it but with a public interest in mind.

Remember when Nelson's head was nicked by students from a Corpo yard - surely there must be a couple of yards like that with lots of goodies. Where did all the city's small gas lamposts go - I know I asked it before, and naturally they were all replaced with good reason, but did they all just go into landfill or are some still kicking about? We didn't have to melt anything down for the War like the UK.
And Iarnrod Eireann must have a bucket load of similar things too.

There must be loads of railings and bits of balustrades and stuff somewhere that once graced the city streets - perhaps it's all the content that now graces the country's salvage yards...
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Postby Paul Clerkin » Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:34 pm

Inchicore works has a lot of old CIE stuff lying around afaik.
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Postby JL » Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:35 pm

Apparently a lot of original granite street paving was lifted in the 60s to be replaced with concrete slabs and was dumped as landfill in the bay.

Daithi Hanley, former city architect, was in possession of the Abbey facade and campaigned for many years to have it re-erected somewhere, but nothing ever came of it. Presumably it's all together in one place still, but I the numbering for re-erection might not have survived.

I don't know if the corpo or CIE have a depot for old objects anywhere. I worked for an architectural office in London which converted a warehouse which British Rail used as a store for all its old objects - from station clocks to piled high stacks of copies of the 1966 All England Freight Timetable. The building was known as collector's corner and was a Mecca for trainspotters across the land. Long after we had moved in, parka-clad individuals would wander into reception in bewilderement ('B-b-but it's gone!' 'Yep it's been an architect's for a while now.' 'Gentrifying bastards.')

It was run on quite a profitable basis I understand - back issues of the Freight Timetable fetched quite a hefty price.
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Postby ewanduffy » Thu Jul 29, 2004 8:59 am

Originally posted by Paul Clerkin
Inchicore works has a lot of old CIE stuff lying around afaik.

IR will sell it to you if you ask nicely and aren't on their hate list (as I am :rolleyes: ).
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Postby Zap » Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:32 pm

Is it possible to have a wander around this yard?
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Postby d_d_dallas » Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:08 pm

The OPW site in Inchicore has a lot of stuff too
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Postby GrahamH » Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:56 pm

They're gonna need to clear a big space for Platform 4 & 5 :(
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Re: Bricklayers Guild Hall

Postby Paul Clerkin » Mon May 07, 2012 1:55 am

From the Dutch Billys thread on Archiseek - Bricklayers Hall, Cuffe St.

0239.jpg
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Re: Bricklayers Guild Hall

Postby Paul Clerkin » Mon May 07, 2012 2:08 am

The case arose out of the quintessential late twentieth century problem of
the high and increasing volume of traffic in cities. Consequently, in
Dublin, the Corporation decided to widen Cuffe Street, by purchasing and
demolishing buildings, and so sought compulsorily to purchase the
Bricklayers' Hall, the headquarters of the Bricklayers' and Stonecutters'
Guild. Appropriately, the Hall possessed a fine cut stone facade, and the
Guild were reluctant to lose it. In negotiations between the Corporation
and the Guild, it was agreed that if the Corporation were simply
compulsorily to purchase the entire plot, the amount of compensation
payable to the Guild would be £ 87, 857; but if the Corporation were
instead to purchase only so much of the plot as was in fact necessary for
the purpose of widening the road, and to pay the cost of removing and
storing the facade and to reinstate it on the remainder of the Hall once
the road widening was complete, the amount of compensation payable to the
Guild would be £ 224,414. The matter was then referred by the parties to a
property arbitrator under the terms of the Acquisition of Land (Assessment
of Compensation) Act, 1919, to determine which of these bases of
calculation ought to be adopted. During the negotiations, and again before
the arbitrator, it was the bona fide intention of the Guild to retain the
Hall and reinstate the facade. On this basis, on 27 May 1985, the
arbitrator made an award on the second basis above. Some time thereafter,
the Guild demolished the entire of the Hall; later still, on 30 December
1985, they conveyed to the Corporation the relevant portion of the plot and
received the £ 224,414. It being impossible to reinstate the facade, there
being no building upon which to construct it, the Guild simply retained the
entire of the sum.
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Re: Bricklayers Guild Hall

Postby teak » Mon May 07, 2012 12:56 pm

So, are you :

A. Demonstrating that the instinct towards grasping gombeenry is inherently stronger in brickies' union officials than their love of good workmanship .

B. Implicitly complimenting the Bricklayers Guild on its acumen, while conveying to us a template for profitable purchase engagements with the Corpo in similar situations .

C. Impugning the professional ethics of lawyers for both the Guild and the Corpo who may have been complicit in agreeing a settlement far in excess of the true compensation on the basis of a visibly humbug claim .

D. Asserting a basis for successful post facto litigation against the Guild in view of its failure to fulfil the intentions implied in its compensation deal with the Corpo .

E. Bewailing yet another past transgression of an Irish local authority in relation to property sale or purchase .

If E. is the correct answer, then why not discuss instead the much more entertaining story of the Phoenix Park Wall contract ? :thumbup:
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Re: Bricklayers Guild Hall

Postby Paul Clerkin » Mon May 07, 2012 1:31 pm

It actually went to court in the 1990s, the corporation won eventually
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-24942956.html

This is it in legal-speak
http://www.ucc.ie/law/restitution/archi ... /brick.htm
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Re: Bricklayers Guild Hall

Postby gunter » Mon May 07, 2012 2:59 pm

teak wrote:So, are you :

A. Demonstrating that the instinct towards grasping gombeenry is inherently stronger in brickies' union officials than their love of good workmanship .

B. Implicitly complimenting the Bricklayers Guild on its acumen, while conveying to us a template for profitable purchase engagements with the Corpo in similar situations .

C. Impugning the professional ethics of lawyers for both the Guild and the Corpo who may have been complicit in agreeing a settlement far in excess of the true compensation on the basis of a visibly humbug claim .

D. Asserting a basis for successful post facto litigation against the Guild in view of its failure to fulfil the intentions implied in its compensation deal with the Corpo .

E. Bewailing yet another past transgression of an Irish local authority in relation to property sale or purchase .

If E. is the correct answer, then why not discuss instead the much more entertaining story of the Phoenix Park Wall contract ? :thumbup:


All of the above, I think is the only conclusion we can draw. . . . What’s the story with the Phoenix Park Wall?

I don't suppose anybody knows where the granite from the facade of the Brick and Stone Layer’s Hall might have ended up, or is that like looking for the fees you paid a solicitor thirty years ago.

With the benefit of hindsight, there may have been clues to an inclination within the Brick and Stone Layers Guild towards grasping gombeenery long before the 1980s. At some point late in the nineteenth century, the venerable guild appear to have purchased the crisply detailed 'Billy' next door at no. 50 Cuffe Street and summarily demolished it just to give themselves another six foot of building width and a second door.

Image
this image was lifted from McCullough's: Dublin, an Urban History.

Image
Paul's image of the expanded Hall [from the Cuffe Street thread] shortly before demolition

Image
an aerial view from about the same time showing the devastation to the streetscape caused by all the Corporation setbacks, with the Hall [and its extension] still hanging in there, just

Image
a grainy view of the expanded Brick and Stone Layer's Hall with nos. 47 and 48 Cuffe Street then still standing. No. 47 displaying the entrance door and window disposition of a [twin] Billy . . . . to those of us who believe in such things

Apparently Meredith's Pawn Shop, at no. 48, was a legendary establishment in the Dublin of the 1940s and 50s and held a special place in peoples' affections as the only pawn shop in the city that would take false teeth.

aagh, the good old days
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Re: Bricklayers Guild Hall

Postby Paul Clerkin » Mon May 07, 2012 3:48 pm

The aerial shot is interesting - the hall was quite long. The extension to the right did not have the same design quality as the original bank front.

That image is in McCullough's book? Must dig it out again and look.
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Re: Bricklayers Guild Hall

Postby urbanisto » Mon May 07, 2012 3:58 pm

Interesting thread here....especially the Raider of the Lost Ark store house. Turns out Dublin Civic Trust have the artefacts from the Irish House Pub, while much of the interior was kept by the pub's owners. There appears to be a storage yard in Cherrywood that holds many items f interest from around the city. DCC must have a yard...eg where have they stored the 3 Fates statues that used to sit in the small park beside City Hall.
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