Trinity Due for Demolition in 2005

Trinity Due for Demolition in 2005

Postby PVC King » Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:43 pm

http://www.p45rateit.net/general/index.php?PHPSESSID=75dfeaa4fa376c3e93b363011fe6052b&show=view&sr=81&pp=1&cp=82&s=m

Quote "Oringinally built as the set for the film Educating Rita. Due for demolition in 2005."

Is Trinity past it?

Is the site too constrained?
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Postby phil » Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:56 pm

Diaspora, I am confused by the circular referencing of the online posts here. ie: your post brought me to your original source only for the original source to bring me straight back here!

Can you also explain what your issue with Trinity is?

Thanks

Phil
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Postby MB O'Maoileoin » Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:58 pm

Trinity College is of course Dublin University's only college. Why weren't more colleges built as happened over the centuries at Oxford and Cambridge Universities? In any case were there ever any plans to expand Dublin University in this way?
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Postby PVC King » Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:03 pm

Originally posted by phil
Diaspora, I am confused by the circular referencing of the online posts here. ie: your post brought me to your original source only for the original source to bring me straight back here!



Well it just seemed like a quote that would provoke more reaction on this site than the that. I referenced this post so that anyone who was interested in TCD might look at this.

The idea of this thread wasn't really serious, and I don't have any issues with trinity.

But like many who have observed it's development I am getting a little concerned about the constant additions.

The quality of the amenity is going down a little as each additional building takes away a little more open space.

Most are familiar with the historic section and the newer arts block and library. But it is to the back and Pearse St side that I am concerned about.

It may be time fore TCD to acquire a site off the campus and transfer a few faculties before the entire site ends up built upon. :rolleyes:
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Postby ewanduffy » Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:08 pm

Originally posted by Diaspora
It may be time fore TCD to acquire a site off the campus and transfer a few faculties before the entire site ends up built upon.

I'm sure the British Embassy could give them some space. After all, TCD still acts like it part of the Empire.
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Postby phil » Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:12 pm

Ah, now I am with you Diaspora!
I would be very suprised if anymore of the various squares within the campus were built upon. The only area which might get targeted could be the liear car park which runs along Naussau Street/South Leinster Street (Unlikely though). Are you referring to the way it presents a blank face on the Pearse Street side and is in some ways responsible for the fact that this area of Pearse Street is quite dead?!

It seems as though it is starting to buy up a few properties off campus: for example the department of Sociology and the Politics department is in that Office Building on the corner of Fosters Place and College Green, whilst the old Gas Building on D'Olier Street is presently being converted into its Nursing School.
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Postby garethace » Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:13 pm

It isn't just Trinity, the whole education thing here in Ireland is still carrying a huge amount of baggage and excess weight on all fronts.

Anyone who would try to put forward any aspect of Irish higher level education as a perfect solution, would be very foolish.

By criticising Trinity in isolation, are we somehow trying to imply that other institutions are without fault altogether?

Thread here:

http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?threadid=2761

Dealing with an idea, bit daft, but still an idea to 'write a brief' for a new improved faculty to do with the built environment.
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Postby PVC King » Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:42 pm

Originally posted by garethace
It
By criticising Trinity in isolation, are we somehow trying to imply that other institutions are without fault altogether?
[


Being honest Brian if Kevin St, most of Aungier St and Bolton St, Cathal Brugha St and Mounjoy Square minus the facade got nuked it would be no great loss. (As Buildings)
No-one really believes that Grange G will ever happen I think. It is little more than Goldsmiths pipedream, and as lengths of wavin they don't get much bigger.


Trinity is also right in the centre of the City. The way it has operated its holdings onto Pearse St have been nothing short of a disgrace.

That entire end of Pearse St is virtually dead to pedestrians and is in marked contrast to the way it was before they started their acquisition strategy. :mad:
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Postby garethace » Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:52 pm

You don't need to look at Trinity even to see disgrace of pedestrian usage/sympathetic design.

I remember doing a site over beside that old Casey building Georgian building at the end of Essex Street. The site beside the old church which is the Viking centre now. That street is absolutely dead, that area has nothing to draw people to it, and Dublin cco have insisted on using the pedestrian route through their building now as a place to put skips and park cars!

That Essex Street route, coming through Wood Quay civic offices continues right over to Pearse street as you have described has no activity either. That whole axis is terrible in comparison to the south/north axis from the Green to Parnell Square. It is amazing what cardinal points can mean isn't it? I mean, in peoples' mental perception of their environment, in terms of Kevin Lynch and his book called 'Image of a City'.

I think people in Dublin see Trinity college as a useful way to define where 'South of the river ends and the North really begins'. Unfortunately Wood Quay seems to have done just about the same thing, as has Guinnesses brewery too.

I mean Temple Bar is really the only only place along the whole length of the river currently where North and South seem to be joined somewhat - and even there they made a mess of things with the footbridge!

http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?s=&postid=21596#post21596

I love the way in which Ringsend and the area around the point are connected in some small way by the bridge down there. I welcome the arrival of a new bridge though, between west link and buck bridge.
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Postby notjim » Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:01 pm

as a acedemic research scientist let me comment that the city centre location and prestegious buildings is a huge asset to trinity. in a research career, one important thing is status, you try and move up, and status is linked partly to prestegious buildings and city centre locations. this help alot when recruiting researchers from abroad and any move from the current site would be stupid. tcd has a huge advantage over ucd when it comes to international perception and hiring, whatever about the domestic situation.

the way pearse street has been treated is terrible, also the lincoln corner. the college is trying to improve, it promises to renovate the pearse street fronts at a rate of two a year, it is reopening the lincoln inn and is going to build student accomadation between luas hall and the street, though there is no money for much at the moment. there are plans to build behind the pearse street buildings, but not to encroach on the existing green space. there are no plans to build between nassau street and the park, nor is it likely any development that intruded on the view from nassau street would ever be allowed.

as for the colleges ability to expand beyond the island site, there is still the an post site behind pearse station, the innovation centre on pearse street where the craft tower is, the new space on foster place and the move to the bord gais building.
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Postby PVC King » Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:07 pm

Originally posted by notjim


the way pearse street has been treated is terrible, also the lincoln corner. the college is trying to improve, it promises to renovate the pearse street fronts at a rate of two a year,


Trinity has submitted a planning application to demolish most of the college's buildings on Pearse St including the Listed Nuzum Bros shop fronts. To be replaced by a large modern block that would be heavily glazed.

Obviously they are saying one thing and doing another in the West Chapel these days. :mad:
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Postby notjim » Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:57 pm

i am shocked if that's true, i thought retention of the pearse street facades was part of the strategic plan. when was the application submitted?
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Postby PVC King » Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:07 pm

Originally posted by notjim
i am shocked if that's true, i thought retention of the pearse street facades was part of the strategic plan. when was the application submitted?


It was submitted before Christmas according to Devin who was not pleased at all.

The deal was that a new structure would be built and in return new access from Pearse St to the main campus would be provided.
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Postby ro_G » Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:31 pm

would hate to see Nuzum Bros shopfront go.
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Postby blue » Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:13 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn’t Trinity acquired some buildings on Dame St next to Foster Place. They’re going to knock them into each other to create a larger space and construction is on going at the moment.

The plan is to rent out the retail units and have lecture rooms etc on the upper floors. Think Little Ceasers is moving in!
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Postby notjim » Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:32 pm

what you said is true blue, but with administration office rather than lecture theatres.

would hate to see nuzum bros go, also the old bicycle factory, and indeed the terrace as a whole. there is easily a better way to reintroduce access from pearse street and to build behind these buildings.
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Postby Rory W » Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:08 pm

luas hall


It's Luce hall - although it does remind me of a tram shed
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Postby garethace » Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:02 pm

On campus space and architecture.

Has anyone ever visited campuses on the continent, where buildings tend to get as large as this:

http://www.cgarchitect.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000497

This image is very rough I know:

http://www.cgarchitect.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=next_topic;f=5;t=000435;go=newer

But captures more or less the scale of buildings/spaces prevalent in many campuses around the globe.

Then in campuses you get these odd kinds of stadia and things thrown into the mix, like in UCD, Trinity or UL where sports feature as part of the 'scene'.

http://www.cgarchitect.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=next_topic;f=5;t=000452;go=newer

Making for a very interesting juxtaposition of scales and structures of various periods, designers and styles. I often laugh when someone describes a certain 'architect' being the master planner of a campus.

But on the point about Trinity.

I have noticed in UCD the attempt to do this kind of 'undercroft' treatment like in many foot ball stadia, and also the Leopardstown Race Course, where public activities etc happen at different levels to other functions.

http://www.cgarchitect.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=next_topic;f=4;t=000514;go=older
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Postby phil » Thu Feb 26, 2004 12:11 pm

Garethace, have you had a look at the two new buildings in UCD? I personally think that the new Virus Reference lab is a gem! (the big black building which is located close to the front entrance)

Thanks

Phil
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Postby garethace » Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:53 pm

Well to be perfectly honest with you I am more into how the external spaces are treated in university planning/architecture. Because that is where the students spend a larger portion of their time. Louis Kahn believed that these corridors and so forth, would be like class rooms in themselves where students would learn from no teachers - but from each other - rather than long narrow sneak passages as he called them - normally what is called for in educational budgets.

Notice that nice new space created in front of the new MOLA student centre building - grey brick one, horizontal building. That new space works well I think and ties in the old existing sports hall, pub or whatever, which was quite isolated before now.

MOLA have done a nice little DIT student residence building up at Broadstone, which should also be nice. I have seen the new buildings you are describing, the new Lab is indeed a good effort and commands the space around it nicely - but as you are possibly familiar with in Trinity college campus, new developments always seem to be a mixed bag - with some excellent examples like Arts block in Trinity and some trully awful attempts - owing to lack of budget etc, etc.

It is as if they break the bank on one development, and then build a couple of cheap-o's following that one great building.

I am not really a big fan of the O'Reilly hall in UCD - not because of the building itself as such, but rather the lack of an attempt to deal with and create exterior spaces, like the new student centre does. The main boulevard type of space in DCU isn't at all bad either I don't think. To be honest, I find the UL campus a bit all over the place and lacks any clearly defined grand central space or avenue. Despite all kinds of buildings and investments down through the years, and attempts at making it better. Plus the campus at Plassey doesn't seem to suffer from any problems of vandalism or other difficulties like Trinity college would be exposed to.

What UL campus definitely lacked is a good architect with a vision.

Similarly with the former RTC's, Institutes of Technology around the country. But I think that main 'mall' type space in DCU is alright. In Bolton Street, there was no opportunity to make a good external space, so they opted instead for a grand atrium idea, which is worth visiting. In Angier Street there is a grand central courtyard, which isn't even used, and very little other gesture towards public open space. In Kevin Street, nearby, they have tied together a mess of buildings quite favorably with a nice new hard landscaped courtyard now. Worth taking a look. You should try the little entrance on the side street, which is the one most used by the students now I think. Making the front entrance a bit underused now I think.

I have not been to Cathal Brugha Street in ages now, but I wouldn't expect much out of it really. MOLA seem to have a fine portfolio of educational projects at this stage, have a look here:

http://www.murrayolaoire.com/education/projects/projectsindex2.html

No attempt there is made to sell the UCD student centre project though - but other projects are a little bit better featured.
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Postby PVC King » Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:02 pm

Originally posted by garethace
In Bolton Street, there was no opportunity to make a good external space, so they opted instead for a grand atrium idea, which is worth visiting.

Any chance of a photo of the new structure errected for smokers. Its a Gem :D
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Postby garethace » Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:03 pm

Really?
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Postby PVC King » Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:12 pm

Iron painted blue although the finish is aging a little badly, heavily glazed (with perspex)

The seats are of robust teak construction inthe minimalist style include a good layer of green gungy moss.

It comfortably accomodates 4.

POA

Seriously Bolton St that apart is very good considering it was built in 1988. The internal area works very well when the Carrolls comedy club is in. The external courtyard is thronged during the exam season. The numbers of punters hanging around are usually a good indicator of Quality.

But can someone please throw the bus shelter in a skip its an insult to a college with an Architecture faculty.
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Postby garethace » Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:21 pm

If they could move that basement stuff out of Bolton Street altogether, you could establish a whole new kind of 'level' of spaces and uses. I.e. the Concrete testers and the mechanics - into a totally new facility. You could bring those existing lightwells into the picture - which at the moment just sit there with dead pigeons lying in the middle of them.

I think pigeon shit is a real problem in dank, cold, mossy spaces like that. Dunno how one could design around it. It just says really, that light is an essential ingredient of any architecture. The architecture department is on the highest floor, so it tends to 'lift itself' somewhat out of the spooky, pigeon inhabited underworld below.

I mean even the Georgian terrace, was a very dense form of development too, but at least it made one great shaft of space, as the street, to allow ventilation, views and light. Bolton Street is some kind of 'knotted' up figure of eight Georgian terrace gone badly wrong.

I respect the background of Bolton Street though as a place for technological, engineering etc, etc, etc. Like the trades school thing across the road and all. The number of people down through the years who have passed through Bolton Street, Rathmines, Cathal Brugha Street, Mountjoy Square, Angier Street................. stands on its own merit.

But DIT doesn't really have a home as such. You have Bolton Street and the trade school, you have Kevin Street and Angier st. as sort of 'hubs' of activity in various parts of the city. With some 'sporadic skermishes' occuring at places like Mountjoy and Rathmines.

I suppose this is really the advantage of 'having a home' though, something like an actual campus. Because you can invest in good once off building projects at least every decade, and be reasonably assured that it all adds up to some improvement of existing facilities, spaces, environment etc. With all due respect to University facilities, I think any of the investment in education pays itself back well.

But it is always a good thing to see developments all happen on one campus, just so as to monitor what is being spent and where it is being spent.

Angier Street have a new Library facility, which is very, very, very underused, as a main college facility. It is offered to anyone witha student card, for a cost of €1 per day ticket, which is wonderful - but that fact is not well advertised either. In Trinity, in the libraries, the number of bums on seats at all points during the day is just staggering by comparison.

Limerick campus perhaps doesn't 'come together' very well, where the lack of a central grand vision really tells. While having all this US money to build new big huge buildings for labs etc worked against it a bit. That new Olympic Swimming pool they have is interesting, because noone can really use it - it is just like a huge high security prison facility like in the movie 'Face Off'.

It towers over everything around it, including a village made of semi-d's which they referred to as the on-campus student 'accomodation' up til quite recently.

It might be noted too, that O'D & T started out years ago with Jim Stirling, and that their Virus building on UCD campus, in a way perhaps does pay some sort of homage to their first teacher and experience as architects. Where are those lab buildings, which Stirling did in England again?

In general though, I think that the campus out in Belfield is starting to come together bit by bit and hopefully will continue to improve in the right ways.
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Postby garethace » Thu Feb 26, 2004 5:18 pm

Guess what was an issue as part of the Trinity SU president election? :)

Right, you have guessed it.

The provision of a shuttle bus service from new Trinity student residences in Dartry into the college campus in town.

Ah yes, I will scribble down more when I get around to it - worth seeing what SU in Trinity these days actually considers 'issues' - very applicable to design and architecture a large number of them.
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