Lets nuke the computer whiz. . .

Postby PVC King » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:35 am

Quote "life is too short. thats why nobody is following all this drivel"

Never heard the expression 'consumers vote with their feet"

Now I have visions of a rude individual freaking out because they have been asked to pay 5c too much for a Mars bar
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Postby garethace » Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:34 pm

i am actually appaled at the reactions u have been getting brian. i would suggest backing up your drawings on ur hard drive if they do that.


Exactly how many young architects starting off in practice for the first time in their lifes do you think are going to know what a hard drive even is?

I regularly have to show people how to format a floppy disk, find the C:\ drive in their computer and show they how to save a document. I still think it is a bit beyond the average abilities of young architects out their in practice to prempt such disasters occuring, in the manner you have described.

In the case of files disappearing from the main file server - I had a CDROM backup of all my work in that case. But I didn't even bother to restore the files to the file server. Because the damage was already done in my opinion - if people want to do things like that at all - why even bother?

The client phoned up asking for a print of the drawings, and the said building was already at foundation DPC level and my architects firm had to just tell the client, 'we have no drawings'.

Of course, they did suceed in making me look bad in this instance, in the eyes of my particular employer. But then, I believe that everyone in the practice should be playing on the same team at least, otherwise it is hopeless. The client is just paying you to hold very expensive personal arguments, and that is in general the service which clients are receiving in a lot of cases today.
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Postby garethace » Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:42 pm

Just said I would include this too:

Another example, and one of the first times way back in 1997 that I ever saw computer visualisation used in architectural practice at all.

A big American Tech company were outsourcing their operations over here to Ireland and were gong to build a brand new state of the art factory space. The architect came up with a design worth 12 million pounds, which had this very nice space frame roof construction. The building was probably big enough to justify the cost of the space frame components etc, but it would have cost only 11 million to build the same building with a standard flat roof construction, using girders etc.

But visually speaking, the space frame just looked awesome, out of this world, by comparison with the flat roof, girder solution. So the architect in a last ditch effort to sell his 'space frame' concept to the client went out on a limb and did something almost unprecedented in Ireland here at the time - he paid almost 5,000 pounds I think to commission some digital artist to do a CG render showing the building 'as it would look' with the space frame.

None of us had ever seen this technique of representation ever before, and we all ganged around him in the office one day, to see the new CG visualisation when it finally arrived. Anyhow, the excitement was short lived, as the client would not go that extra mile for a space frame, but it might have been worth it, dunno.

Anyhow, it is an interesting early example of the roots of visualisation and its use in the architectural profession - in that case it helped the said architect to really argue his point much better, than he could have done without it.

But thinking back upon this instance now, it is amazing how closely the visualisation and quantity surveyor, cost issues are linked together. Just in the debate I had raging with Nisus and the boys over at CG Architect, about the over designed balconies.
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Postby helloinsane » Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:06 pm

Originally posted by garethace
the whole system right now is really badly organised for the young entry level architects starting with no experience in practice. This has very telling results I find, as later on when those young architects mature, they are not as comfortable with the whole process of working in a design office [remainder of run-on snipped]


Oh please. The 'system' is designed to administer building contracts. Graduate architects are going to be useless for at least a year where they are not an actual liability. If their feeling are so easily hurt there are other careers.
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Postby garethace » Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:23 pm

The one important thing, which did come of the 55 post thread over at CG Architect, in the Finished work forum, was that situations for the architectural profession vary to a high degree in different parts of the world.

You are writing your replies from Canada - I have worked with Architects from Canada over here, in their fifties who were using more computers back in the 1970s, than we are using them now here in Ireland.
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Postby garethace » Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:27 pm

Null
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Postby helloinsane » Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:44 pm

Originally posted by garethace
So just bear in mind before jumping to any more conclusions, just how differen the actual situation is [b]here on the ground in Ireland today. [/B]


You wouldn't have just jumped to a conclusion yourself now, would you?

I've worked on the ground in Ireland (as you put it) as recently as last November, and prior to that for two years from '99 to 2001.

This unsubstantiated aggrandisement of junior architects still bugs me. The first four years out of college are spent learning exactly how much you *don't* know. The sooner you accept that and get on with it the sooner you can take on the difficult (and often thankless) business of actually making architecture.
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Postby garethace » Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:55 pm

Null
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Postby helloinsane » Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:56 pm

Originally posted by garethace
So just bear in mind before jumping to any more conclusions, just how different the actual situation is here on the ground in Ireland today from yours over in Canada. Why do you think the Presidential candidates work so hard to adjust their speeches for each of the states they campaign in the elections?


Not sure where you're going with this. Last I checked Canada doesn't have a president, with or without a capital P.

Here in Ireland, which is probably a much smaller place even than Iowa, or Wisconsin, or Kentucky, the Architectural technicians are doing more and more of the duties you described, in terms of contract administration etc, etc, that young architects are doing.


Thanks for reminding me of that. The fact that I'm Irish doesn't necessarily mean I know how big the country is. How would it compare to Ontario, Manitoba or British Columbia? You know, the *Canadian* provinces?
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Postby garethace » Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:05 pm

Null
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Postby helloinsane » Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:15 pm

Originally posted by garethace
I still think, you may not be as familiar with the scene here as you think - where exactly did you work in Ireland, kinds of projects, size of practice etc? Just perhaps to flesh out this debate and little bit more and give an idea where exactly you are 'coming from' in the argument.


You forgot to ask how much money I was making. I am somewhat reluctant to post my cv online; my credentials shall therefore remain in question.

I do, however, stand by my initial contention.
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Postby garethace » Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:20 pm

The Quantity surveyor thing - do you have them in Canada? - that was dragged straight into the 55 post thread at CG Architect - like out of nowhere and reminds me of those times in college doing interactive projects between architects, engineers and surveyors - in a discussion about CG visualisation, of all places!
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Postby helloinsane » Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:26 pm

I can accept that hyperbole has its place, but when it becomes the default mode it can pose a danger to the discourse as a whole. That was kind of my point - the practice of architecture operates under particular constraints regardless of whether you use 3d visualisation or grease pencil. A debate on the former presupposes a firm grasp of the latter.

Quantity Surveyors are a global phenomenon, although they more usually masquerade as 'Cost Consultants' over here. The net effect is the same.
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Postby garethace » Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:36 pm

Null
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Postby garethace » Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:48 pm

Null
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Postby helloinsane » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:50 pm

Good god, it's like trying to have a debate with a puddle. Your posts seem to shrink before finally evaporating. Don't make me start quoting you in full; I'm not sure the server could take the load.

You shouldn't feel you have to revise your opinions or assertions based on an evolving discussion.
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Postby garethace » Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:32 pm

null
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Postby garethace » Sun Mar 07, 2004 4:21 pm

This web site is increasingly beginning to remind me of geography and GIS rather than actual architecture.

I think to confuse the two to too much of an extent is a problem - expressed by the recent City Architect or City Geographer thread here at Archiseek.

At the end of the day, I know a very many architects nowadays are trying to be geographers and a very many geographers are trying to be architects.

It is a crazy and confused world we are growing up in people.

Very, very nice ESRI Volumes, tonnes of stuff.

Geography—Creating Communities
The maps in this volume show how GIS is cutting across disciplines, providing a common language for discussion, and bringing people together in the decision making process. GIS enables us to share data in different societal communities thereby creating a framework for this global information network.



http://www.esri.com/mapmuseum/mapbook_gallery/volume16/index.html

http://www.esri.com/mapmuseum/mapbook_gallery/volume17/index.html

http://www.esri.com/mapmuseum/mapbook_gallery/volume18/index.html
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Postby sw101 » Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:01 pm

Originally posted by garethace
This web site is increasingly beginning to remind me of geography and GIS rather than actual architecture.

I think to confuse the two to too much of an extent is a problem - expressed by the recent City Architect or City Geographer thread here at Archiseek.

At the end of the day, I know a very many architects nowadays are trying to be geographers and a very many geographers are trying to be architects.

[b]It is a crazy and confused world we are growing up in people.


Very, very nice ESRI Volumes, tonnes of stuff.




http://www.esri.com/mapmuseum/mapbook_gallery/volume16/index.html

http://www.esri.com/mapmuseum/mapbook_gallery/volume17/index.html

http://www.esri.com/mapmuseum/mapbook_gallery/volume18/index.html [/B]


just wanted to quote this before we're greeted by **null** in the morning.

HI, remember a puddle needs a depression or hole to form. a vacuos space you understand
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Postby FIN » Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:01 am

please stop "null" ing ur post cos it stops all arguments progressing and irrates everyone. if you are so ashamed of what you postesd then please don't post
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Postby garethace » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:06 pm

It is not that Fin.

Have a look at the format of this forum:

http://www.aceshardware.com/forum

Three things in particular:

1. Message Board gets 'flushed' regularly. You cannot reply to an old thread, and promote it back up to the 'top' of the message board like you can here.

Possibly not relevant to Archiseek discussion content, but interesting as a concept nonetheless.

It makes for very quick, decisive type of discussion rather than the long drawn out, 'holding a grudge' for too long aspect that can develop here at Archiseek.

2. You can cut in anywhere in the thread. This means, that stray discussions, on sub-topics can be almost conducted without affecting too much, the nature of the discussion in the first place.

But here at Archiseek it is totally sequential, making it too easy for people to spam out a thread very quickly and mess it up totally.

It normally ends up in someone saying something about a political party and that is the end of the thread basically, as in my chit-chat with Helloinsane.

It would be fine if my chit-chat with Helloinsane just developed into a sub discussion, like you can do at Aceshardware forum.

Then I wouldn't delete anything. I HATE the sequential, ping-pong nature of this boards format.

It pre-dictates and defines too much the way in which people here post, discuss and how they explore issues.

It is completely useless as far as I am concerned as a medium for meaningful discussion.

Of which I am very capable of, but I simply cannot do it, by using this format of message board here.

3. You can look at a thread from the outside first, without actually going into it. New posts made since your last visit are marked with a red NEW sign.

Posters have the ability to change the header of their posts, telling you exactly what they want to say in their posts.

Sometimes, all they post is the heading part, and put NT (no text) after it, and thereby manage to conduct brief one line replies.


There are a lot of things about Aceshardware which make sense, and work and make the Aceshardware forum the really educational site it is to visit.

Of course some of the quality of the posting is very good over there too, about computer hardware etc.

Notice in the general message board overall view too, how you can see exactly which board members conducted the discussion and who was doing most of the talking etc.

Which makes it very easy to pick out threads with posters whom you are interested in listening to.




Brian O' Hanlon.
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Postby sw101 » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:09 am

Ah brian. this sequential method is perfectly adequate for discussion. you're just annoying people when you fuck around with it
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Postby helloinsane » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:46 am

Originally posted by garethace
Of which I am very capable of


Quad erat demonstrandum?
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Postby FIN » Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:28 am

brian, i take your point but is it not the case if u say something u should be held accountable for it or equally people may agree with it. this lends itself for a wider range of a discussion between forum members and doesn't limit it to just a private conversation. everyone can see where you are arguing from and either agree or disagree. when u just see one perspective then it renders what u are saying useless and pisses people off.
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Postby garethace » Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:03 pm

Originally posted by sw101
Ah brian. this sequential method is perfectly adequate for discussion. you're just annoying people when you fuck around with it


You see SW, if like me you were a very experienced message board reader and poster on a regular basis, in a wide range of interests, like CG, Planning, Architecture and Computer Science...... then like me you would be more attuned to subtle differences in formats, which make all the difference.

Parallel discussion ability within within the same thread is essential to disect more complex issues - which are really a combination of subissues, rather than being one solid issue, with one right or wrong.

Why do you think the tribunals, and Dail proceedings take so long and all have to be recorded?

Parellel discussion formats in message boards are a blessing...... while sequential discussion formats are just shit.

Like the format we are using here. Ping-pong-ping-pong-ping-pong. I am sorry, but it is true.

Paul does a wonderful job, and is very professional..... but has only finite resources, too finite really..... to enable a proper ideal discussion format for the issues we are dealing with here.

One of the things they have learned from the Tribunals actually, is how many more of them could have gone on in parallel in one sitting of the judges/jury etc, instead of doing everything in sequences and costing a lot more - to get the witnesses to show up all at the same time etc, etc.

Just as well noone is paying us here, to do what we do eh? :) Or you would arrive very quickly at a strange looking sum. And that is what put an awful lot of 'knowledge experts' off posting their opinions at places like Archiseek I think, because it reminds them of some very long drawn out, over extended, mis-allocation of public funding like the format the tribunals took. Whereas, if you had parallel discussion format, you could get more done, and accomplish an awful lot more with just one single thread called, one particular heading.

The system breaks down here totally when you try to look at 'big issues' like cars and the environment, or roundabouts etc, etc, etc. Which are very multi-dimensional parallel-type of issues.

BTW, I have studied the science of knowledge management in great detail over the past couple of years, MicroSoft have invested megabucks in this particular area and published a lot of material on the subject, but so have many others...... so I am not just pulling things straight out of my own arse.

Brian O' Hanlon.
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