space architecture

space architecture

Postby FIN » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:27 am

i have just read an article about space architecture in an aj from last april i think, and i am intrigued by this subject. does anyone have any information on this subject and more importantly as i am sure every architect has thought about this once, anyone got any views or insights they want to share. this is a blank canvas after all and no pesky conservationists to bother u.
i know this is supposedly science fiction at the moment but i could be a reality soon(hopefully). i note the chinese are hoping for a colony on mars. NASA have been working on this for years so would anyone consider doing a design and submitting it to NASA in the hope of working for them.
this is kinda taking urban design up a notch with some interesting problems to be considered before even attempting to take in account the normal difficulties.
for any students, it's a subject for a thesis possibly.
and sorry but i have to incluse this, an taisce..any thoughts of going into space????
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Postby garethace » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:06 pm

Do a search on robotics and that will lead you in the correct direction.

Remember, it will not be humans who do this exploration - it will be robots who have mastered the art of movement in both human-scale designed and non-human scale designed environments.

These robots will also have the ability to reproduce just like any other species.

I have talked a lot with the people working in computers, and most of them believe that at some critical point in the future, that a 'leap' will be made - because no too microchips are exactly alike - to when machines can actuallly think.

Did anyone see the BBC documentary on time travel yesterday evening?
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Postby garethace » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:13 pm

Some stuff here about concepts in robotics.


http://www.aceshardware.com/read_news.jsp?id=164
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Postby PVC King » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:26 pm

Definitely not,

Logistical nightmare but we will have no problem working with NASA on the peat technologies they are working on.

I am sure their scientists would be welcome at any of the Trust's unique peatland habitats

Facinating subject all the same
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Postby FIN » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:39 pm

the need to design for robots is a strange one. why the need to design architectural space for a machine when u may be able to send the machine up on it's own. like sending ur motherboard from ur computer into space. i know that is in it's simpliest form but it explains the point. with that it's just a matter of building the robot out of a material suitable for space. i believe it is only a matter of time before the smart computer is developed but weither it thinks for itself...i dunno. the question there is are we capable of creating such a machine. possibly.
as regards the process of architecture and how to solve the gravity question is the major point, i believe. there are different forms it can take. size obviously and then there is the matter of construction. have u heard of this elevator to space? this could solve getting the materials there but as regards asking paddy to go up there and put it together???
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Postby FIN » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:43 pm

time travel? sorry i missed it. what exactly do they mean and as regards that..can we travel into the future? that would mean some pre-destiny..i believe that one can travel the other way alright but the future no.
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Postby sw101 » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:52 pm

Originally posted by garethace

.....................I have talked a lot with the people working in computers..........


Brian, i dont think there are people in there. its just magnets and wires and stuff
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Postby what? » Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:23 pm

i think in space, architects should respect the vernacular of moonraker and buck rogers and not loose their roots by just making new fangled structures just to be modern.
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Postby FIN » Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:27 pm

lol..... however there is the moderist approach of say babylon5 / star trek and other such shows...there is precendent there to enable us to maybe get through planning via an bord pleanala of course as i'm sure the objection would go that far.
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Postby PVC King » Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:30 pm

Which local Authority would refuse you first Disney Land?
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Postby what? » Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:31 pm

maybe glasgow, they had juristiction over neptunes way.
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Postby FIN » Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:33 pm

mayo!
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Postby PVC King » Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:43 pm

Woops
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Postby PVC King » Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:43 pm

At the runway in the middle of nowhere,

Typical like diggin half a hole
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Postby garethace » Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:47 pm

In regards to a couple of things here, I am going to put on my favourite right brain and start being a scientist.

The one environment, which resembles the sexual numerical possiblity, law of chance situation to create actual human beings, does not exist in CMOS transistor technology. Intel etc are leading the world in that.

They have to build an entire new factory line every year and we are now talking about 1 billion transistors on something the size of 4mm x 4mm, getting smaller and more dense all of the time.

Moore's law predicted back in the 1960s, by an intel engineer, has never been broken - that transistor count will double every 1.5 years.

Like I said no two chips are exactly alike. We simply do not know what to do with all the processing power we have anymore. It is going mostly unused. Same with digital storage, same with embedded memory etc.

More and more functions are therefore able to integrate onto a single piece of silicon, and at some stage the machine will actually start to use this vast reserve of computational power to do something like in the first human brains, which only difference is that it was biological and chemical as oposed to silicon.

All mathematical possibility theory currently points to the fact, that we are creating a rain forest of cross pollenation on microchips, somewhere in some industrial looking, nonedescript factory shed, that critical leap with finally happen - that initial spark.

As to the Moore's Law thing, and time travel, at some stage in the future - the human species will have created so much digital storage capacity, memory and processing power, that it will be able to devote some part of it to just recording a point in time in exact realistic detail - that will allow supercomputers to spawn billions of alternative scenarios and billions of copies of you and me.

That means, mathematically speaking, if you think you are you - i.e. the one special 'real' Brian in the billions of other virtual copies, then the odds are stacked against you by a billion to one!

In other words the whole reality that science has set out to discover, and these great people like Einstein wanted to make clear - has in some strange way, become inverted on itself.

In the future - most people will actually exist in virtual space - that is the critical cross-junction between the human species and the machine.

And also that point at which we as a species will effectively cease to be useful anymore. No walt disney endings, just re-created virtual time and space.
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Postby garethace » Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:51 pm

As regards to NASA, you should know that over there, in order to keep getting their generous government funding they simply have to 'spend' their budget each and every year. Otherwise they get less next year.

In the times of Apollo, NASA managed to do very productive work. But nowadays, they just fall into the same catagory as any other government funded institution.

Coming towards the end of the year, they always check the accounts to see if there is any more money left. Then if there is a few million left, they have to pull out the catalogues and frantically started ordering 'stuff' to make up the difference.

Whole buildings full of computers are filled doing this - only to be switched on doing absolutelly nothing, except perhaps to walk the odd site-seeing tour through.
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Postby FIN » Sun Dec 21, 2003 1:24 pm

veru interesting point. forgive me but that is kinda of what the matrix was saying i think. but i do agree that if machines become thinking... then we would cease to be relevant. as regards living in virtual reality...very possible but i don't know if i can see it happen to be honest. or as in the matrix how do we know it hasn't already happened!!!!
and i think that happens with every gov dept everywhere...but why not cash in onit and design something and then they give one millions for more designs.. seem senisible to me.
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Postby garethace » Sun Dec 21, 2003 3:42 pm

Bear in mind, that in terms of the entire history of human development, we have only had our unique brain power for a small part of our history. That is to say, that the golden age of human development and excellence is just a brief interlude.

For many millions of years, the human species could only hunt and savenge as best it could. At nightime, early humans just had to stay in the dark and cold in caves like animals. But at some critical point, following their ability to control fire - suddenly their brain began to evolve at more than linear rates.

So, for millenia, humans brain capacity stayed pretty much at a constant value, as witnessed by their use of the same tools over the course of millions of years. Then suddenly and without much warning this all changes, as the nightimes suddenly become lighted with fire and peoples' reality switches from external factors, to things inside their heads.

Sean O'Laoire described a very similar switch from the traditional cottage for both animals and people, which prevails across most of Western Europe. When houses with large fireplaces came about, and animals were housed elsewhere, suddenly man become aware of romantic impulses he never knew he had.

The fact remains, that machines are currently accelerating in development at a rate much greater than the human species at the moment. At the moment, machines may be going through their early phases of development, but that does not mean that they will never develop the ability to control fire.

I was hoping that Archiseek, could provide more or less the same opportunity for architects to sit around a fire and think for a change! :-)
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Postby garethace » Sun Dec 21, 2003 4:02 pm

The MATRIX just borrowed everything it could from text book AI thinking in the computer communities. Just like LOTRs has packaged up the Tolkein book for people who do not want to read.

This is a good discussion about AI and the MATRIX movie

That Steven Spielberg movie called AI, is a good example of the ideas I am talking about too. Some great acting in that movie too, set design, concepts etc.

If you rent it on DVD, it is very interesting to listen to Spielberg speak about his ideas behind that movie.
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Postby garethace » Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:09 pm

I have taught a little bit about this subject since, and here are some of my most recent thoughts about it:

There is something in the gaming world called Real Time Strategy genre, which is basically what happened in games like Age of Empires. These games aren't that far away from reality either, when you consider for instance, the Irish condition where 50% of the country's labour resources might have went into providing food and agricultural produce years ago - we had built a society around it.

What kind of society could there be in Space? I think that is a good kind of question to ask - what would mean something in peoples' live, since they would not have traditional goals like semi-detached bungalows, or apartments to buy. Or would they? What would be considered useful as currency, would money work in space, like it does on planet Earth? Would it be any use in space, would inflation be a problem etc.

I would suggest there might be civil wars, and economic collapses in space, just like there was on Earth all throughout history - vast new projects that seemed to spell the future but were desolate years later. I think that Architects are adept in thinking about spatial strategy - but there are some interesting thoughts on the subject here:

Islands under fire.

Where at certain times, little insignificant pieces of land in the middle of oceans become somehow more important than is usual. I would also venture to add - that all Physicists discover more and more about our planet and how things operate - they are indeed learning to suspend disbelief a lot. Like the Matrix, where Neo learns to look at the world in a different way.

I have just included this link here, for some humour in the discussion, but also to point out one very significant fact. That is we do want to use machines to help us build this new world in outer space, then we must also realise what sometimes surprising conclusions machines can come up with. Yeah, I know the HAL 9000 analogy etc, but really this systems of AI and machinery are really only 'doing the math' as it were, and arriving at answers, which seem plausible enough to them.

Gaming AI gone seriously wrong.

I am thinking in terms of AI used to control economies and space travel/colonisation myself. I think that machines could come up with some odd logic, despite having powerful cpus and sophisticated software, I guess Jurassic Park is the ultimate example of things going badly wrong. 'Life finding a way'. Left to b1942, it sure would! :-)

Brian O' Hanlon.
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Postby FIN » Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:49 am

The society in space is going to change from the moment we take the first tenative steps to colonise. at the start it will be survival and will be that way for the first few generations.and therefore the architecture will have to reflect that. after that then the course will change to reflect society here. however as our history is littered with colonies wanting independence or at least autonomy then it will veer in it's own direction. this of course depends on materials/circumstance, etc,etc.... i agree with the fact that more than likely there will be wars...as humans we seem to depend on it to cull the herd. and ur point about little islands taking on more significance than normal...all we have to do is remember the falklands where britain fought a war over a little island thousands of miles away from it for no senisble reason other than pride. the star trek anology of a world of utopia is sadly mistaken. we can't even get on, on our own little rock what makes us so arrogant to believe we will get on in the vast depths of space. this again will direct architecture to mabye back to medieval times...castle, more castles, and even more castles.... as regards currency...well i don't know if the form we have now will do the job. we might revert back to the bartering system which isn't perfect because it has a lot of loopholes in the form of slaves etc... but it is the logical choice. we as a race have to assume that when we do go into space slavery and such will become a large issue again. again back to star trek and everything is free...i don't think so but nice concept...i'ld definately have one of those massive tv's please...
however as a people that have been conditioned to wanting our own little patch i think that apartments and such will always be in demand or the eqivalent. i know it is more so with the peoples of these two little islands than say the continent or the states but there still is an urge there as well. so apartment blocks will always be there and hopefully there shall be no trouble passing such an insignificant building like a 32 storey!!!!...sorry couldn't resist...
we will have to rely on machines to do most of the work and even more so in the future when we all become fat and lazy cos machines do everything and there is the chance of ai. i thik jurassic park is nonsense. i don't believe life will find a way. all u have to do is think of the countless amounts of species we have made extinct. so the spectre of a war against the machines is a chilling one. if we go this route then it will take at least about 9 years to get a human fighter...using child fighters, and machines could be churned out in a day so they would easily outnumber us and wipe every single human out. such a nice thought...
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Postby PVC King » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:02 pm

The Falklands war was fought for mineral rights, namely the oil rights to about half the South Atlantic.

Your are also right in saying the 32 storey building is insignificant, it is insignificant in architectural terms. Dublin is being sold a pup

Name one 25 storey plus rendered landmark building that is held as a model of good design

As for AI

it is limited because like some people in Ireland it never learns from it's mistakes i.e. sub standard tall residential development undertaken by government
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Postby garethace » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:15 pm

Just an article here about the intelligence of machines to make other machines today - AMD and the kind of automation that they borrowed from Chemical engineering factories.
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Postby FIN » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:21 pm

ok..that hurt my brain but yes...but is it the intelligence of the machines or it's program.
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Postby PVC King » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:26 pm

The same intelligence that sent Capital Markets into anarchy in the 1998 Russian economic collapse. They sold everything even shares that had the capacity to profit from the crisis

That is why people make the plays now

AI is artificial i.e. unreal

Computers are glorified calculators
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