LUAS in Harcourt Street (Update No.8)

Postby notjim » Tue Mar 16, 2004 5:49 pm

but there is no way the luas won't help their businesses, whatever the origin woman might say about the luas carrying the wrong kind of people.

its just luck, sometimes infrastructure changes are good for you, sometimes they are bad. if there isn't a mechanism for charging you when they are good for business, there shouldn't be one for compensating you when they are bad.
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Postby Paul Clerkin » Tue Mar 16, 2004 5:53 pm

Lovely shot of the front of Harcourt Street Station....
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Postby Rory W » Tue Mar 16, 2004 6:03 pm

I recon Harcourt Street will be an oasis of tranquility at the weekends with just the Luas and the bus lane. Should be an attraction in itself
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Postby blue » Tue Mar 16, 2004 6:42 pm

It'll be great for the Odean punters, just stumble down a couple of steps and onto the last tram home.

No doubt a lot of people will make it their first stop too.
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Architecture (literally) ON the LUAS

Postby Gabriel-Conway » Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:49 am

Here's something I hadn't noticed until today, when reviewing the larger collection of photos from which I selected the ones to put online.

I have several taken of the interior of the trams, and something caught my eye on the seating.

Looking more closely, it seems that the seating moquette design features Dublin architecture . . . different seats have different Dublin buildings on them, such as The Custom House, The Four Courts, Ha'penny Bridge etc.

I'll go back to the photos and put one online in the next day or two to illustrate this.

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Postby Rory W » Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:23 am

Yep Christ Church is in there as well - a well thought out Idea, really localises the trams.

Fare superior to the new CIE vomit 'n' blue seats
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Postby PVC King » Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:21 pm

Originally posted by notjim
but there is no way the luas won't help their businesses,


If your business closed during the construction phase it would not benifit you at all. The LUAS premium will be passed on to all occupiers of rental property at the next rent review. But to date they have received no compensation for ridiculous amount of disturbance.

The corpo who were supposed to oversee all works didn't even offer some relief of commercial rates. But charged for water and roads that were at best sporadically provided.

Now it may look well, but given the 700m+ spend it would want to.

Would any of you as supervisory architects pay out cheques on behalf of your clients in similar circumstances?
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Public Transport Users Protest

Postby Brian Hanson » Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:08 pm

Public Transport Users Protest

Platform11 are in the process of organising a peaceful public protest outside the Dail within the coming month demanding that the Department of Transport and the Transport Unions finally recognise that public transport users are sick and tired of being treated like a forgotten child in a custody divorce hearing between the DoT and SIPTU/NBRU. We are fed-up with constantly having a gun put to our heads every time we use public transport - we want this sorted out and we demand that public transport users finally have their frustrations listened to.

Irish public transport users have their right to avail of dependable, integrated public transport just as in other European countries, and we should not be held hostage or used as pawns. A letter will also be presented to the Minister of Transport Seamus Brennan outlining our issues and demands.

If any individuals or groups would like to join Platform11 for the protest, you all more than welcome. The protest is for ALL Bus and Rail passengers, but groups from cyclists to concerned citizens are very welcome as well.

This protest is still in the planning stage (we are aiming for a weekday at around 1:30PM) and if you want more details, offer suggestions/ideas or just like to show up, then contact us at info@platform.org for updates prior to the protest. This will be your chance to have your voice heard by the government and the media for change.

The title of the demonstration will be “Public Transport Users – WHAT ABOUT US?”

http://www.platform11.org
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Re: Public Transport Users Protest

Postby PVC King » Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:24 pm

[i]Originally published by RTE interactive
March 18, 2004

(19:31)
The National Institute for Transport and Logistics has called for an independent evaluation of the LUAS project and the proposed plan for a Metro in Dublin.

The Institute, which is part of the Dublin Institute of Technology, has said the original cost of the LUAS was €288m but the system is now expected to finally cost around €800m.

In its audit of Ireland's transport system, the institute also raised concerns about the value for money of subsidising regional air routes. It said the proposed break-up of Aer Rianta - which it described as 'superficially attractive' - raised questions about financial viability of Cork and Shannon airports.


The NITL said the large investment in roads could have implications for the future of some inter-urban rail lines and regional air services.

Related Stories
28 Jul 2003

Luas light at the end of the tunnel

22 Apr 2003

Dublin body wants more LUAS links

11 Dec 2002

Luas operator's €90m British bailout
] [/B]



Brian we deserve answers, 512m is a lot of money I'll see you there :) :o
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Postby JJ » Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:07 am

I´m really tired of hearing all this crap about the cost of Luas. The facts are :

The original cost was for a single line, one depot, no connection to Abbey Street and Connolly and fewer trams. It was also costed almost 10 years ago !!

The current cost reflects the new configuration (changed at the incistance of the government remember!). So now we have two lines, two depots, more trams and additional track not to mention Connolly as a major new terminus and interchange. Three years ago the government accepted a tender cost of 700million plus a risk and contingency figure of 80million. The final outurn costs are in line with those figures.

Supposing I as an Architect designed a house to a budget and to a brief then gave the client a guarantee that the price would not change from the first estimate done 10 years earlier despite the fact that its now bigger, in a different place and made from different materials, would I be taken seriously ? I certainly would not be in business very long !

By the way as an interesting aside on the Origin Gallery issue in Harcourt Street, my friend in the RPA told me that Noelle CS wrote a few months ago requesting an additional stop be provided in Harcourt Street as the stop at the Odeon is too far from her premises !!!!

Gabriel, well done on the photos, I´m out of the country on hols at the moment and its great to be able to see the latest pictures.
Keep up the good work !!

JJ
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Postby notjim » Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:06 am

which businesses closed diaspora?
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Postby blue » Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:07 am

Good point JJ. Maybe instead of looking at how much the final bill has risen since the beginning, we should see if it is value for money? I think it is unfair to compare it to the new Australian transcontinental railway, which cost the same but isn’t comparing like with like, but we should compare it with other European cities projects and apparently it is roughly the same price per km although I haven’t seen any proof of this.

Even if it is roughly the same price as a European versions are we getting value for money? Is the Luas really going to have the impact need to help reduce congestion in Dublin? Is it going to get people out of their cars? Could we be investing the same cash more wisely? Would we have been better to invest more in commuter services from more outlining areas that don’t have bus services? Should we have taken a longer view and started a metro system with a greater capacity? The Luas lines will be busy from day one and will be hailed as a success, some commuters who use the bus now might have a faster alternative but I really don’t think we got value for money.

I think things are moving in the right direction, Iarnród Éireann has come up with the most forward thinking proposals put forward since the inception of the DART and the port tunnel will hopefully remove the HGV traffic from the city centre. These measures plus taxing company car parking as a benefit in kind in the city centre, if the government ever grows the balls to confront its civil servants on this, will do more to relieve traffic congestion than Luas ever will.

All that said I can’t wait to use it. It looks the business!
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Postby Rory W » Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:06 pm

Stop planning and start building.

If the government stopped planning and started building infrastructure would not take half as long to build. Why consultants are employed over and over and over again to come up with minor alterations to each others plabns is beyond me. We have people in the departments capable of drawing up plans -if these plans are of no use they should be sacked, likewise once a plan has been drawn up (I'm thinking DTI plan here) why is it necessary to fuck about with it at a cost of millions with the consultants (thus continually delaying everything leading to cost inflation )rather than build it to the plans.

Useless shagging government - go build things now not keep reselling the same pig in a poke.
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Postby PVC King » Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:39 pm

Originally posted by notjim
which businesses closed diaspora?


Freeny opticians in the Harcourt centre was one that I know of.

But besides Mr Freeny who was in business there since the Harcourt Centre opened every other business suffered severe 'Injurious affection' as a direct result of the non-existence of statutory controls that were the remit of the CARPO.

JJ I don't accept the cost over runs were justified, I fully accept the findings of the NITL Audit as they are the eminent authority in such matters.

O'Rourke was bad but Breannan is a complete joke or the ultimate machiavellian
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Postby kefu » Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:15 pm

The comparison with the Australian cross continent railway has always been an absolute joke.
Their line is built through an unoccupied desert as opposed to smack bang through the centre of a capital city.
Per kilometre, Luas is however more expensive than similar systems built in Nottingham and in France, which are the only valid comparisons.
Nottingham's newly-opened NET system was built at the cost of €18.5 million per kilometre.
Luas is costing around €33 million per kilometre.
The cost of acquiring land has been a big factor in Dublin. Also, Nottingham's system doesn't include any suspension bridges.
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Postby PVC King » Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:07 pm

Originally posted by kefu
The cost of acquiring land has been a big factor in Dublin


It would be very interesting to see an audit of the land prices paid. As very little of the route that wasn't previously on the rail linecould be considered prime development land.

Originally posted by kefu
Also, Nottingham's system doesn't include any suspension bridges.


Yet a sod hasn't been turned on the Macken St bridge, strange that a Calatrava bridge in centre of Breanans electoral base and none for the strategically important docklands.

The end cost coming in at almost twice that of Nottingham per kilmometre is the real truth.

From every angle the delivery of the LUAS stinks. :mad:
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Postby notjim » Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:40 pm

one business? there must be more than that, one business is less than you'd expect through natural turnover! i can think of another: the china showrooms, but even then, you'd wonder if that was because the site is worth too much now for that sort of useage and the character of the street is changing.
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Postby PVC King » Sat Mar 20, 2004 12:19 am

Originally posted by notjim
one business? there must be more than that, one business is less than you'd expect through natural turnover! .


Opticians businesses are extremly saleable upon retirement or turnover as you put it. However valuations are based upon turnover and having your businesses marooned for an un-necessary period of time destroys value. Rates levied for services not provided don't help either

Originally posted by notjim i can think of another: the china showrooms, but even then, you'd wonder if that was because the site is worth too much now for that sort of useage and the character of the street is changing [/B]


The use of the China Showrooms as an example is ill conceived as any observer of interior fashion would know that Luara Ashley type products went out with status Quo's brown flared pants.

Base line is still that LUAS has been the greatest waste of public funds in Irish History and its execution was actually worse if thats possible. I don't pay tax for this type of fiasco, or should I say any tax I paid in other countries was spent more professionally.
:rolleyes:
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Postby Paul Clerkin » Sat Mar 20, 2004 12:25 am

Diaspora, I have information about that Opticians that I wouldnt post here but would clearly suggest Luas wasn't its problem
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Postby PVC King » Sat Mar 20, 2004 12:44 am

I accept that Paul and I wouldn't wish anyone dragged into it where they couldn't defend themselves.

I am merely trying to address the assertion that occupiers of rental property will be ok as the LUAS gain will over time exceed the construction phase nightmare.

For owner occupiers it probably will but for tenants the LUAS will be as dirty an expression as the 'Celtic Tiger' was at one time. Rents will be priced up by at least 20% and no compensation will have been given, for a construction disturbance that went for twice if not three times what the original consultation phase would have discussed.

There was always going to be a certain amount of disturbance but it was not limited by pro-active management. A bit like 2000 when at least 15 broadband networks had the city's streets like a Cavan boreen.

LUAS will be welcome when it arrives, but how can anyone have any confidence in the Dept of Trainspotting's ability to deliver major projects.

LUAS is how many years late?

LUAS is almost 200% over Budget (NITL)

LUAS disturbance was not contained.
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Postby Peter Fitz » Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:17 pm

Diaspora, there is no such thing as the tram fairy; it is just not possible to install tracks on city streets without causing substantial disruption.

Actual construction of Luas has not taken that long, it was all the proceeding political shite that caused the delay.

How exactly should they have tackled Harcourt Street ?

It took months to untangle & identify a rake of underground services, laid over years, while the public service & telco companies themselves are not even aware of their exact location ... and then shift the entire lot across the street ...

Harcourt Street never had a thriving passing trade; those businesses that suffered most will benefit most.

Dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t.
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Postby PVC King » Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:42 pm

Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
Diaspora, there is no such thing as the tram fairy; it is just not possible to install tracks on city streets without causing substantial disruption.


So the traffic arrangement at the junction of Charlotte Way and Harcourt St in 2002 where pedestrians had to walk 20 yards into oncoming traffic was normal disruption.

Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
Actual construction of Luas has not taken that long, it was all the proceeding political shite that caused the delay.


On that you are correct but it wasn't only government incompetence

Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
How exactly should they have tackled Harcourt Street ?


In accordance with the plans as agreed with the Harcourt St businesses. Which were fundamentally breached or ignored

Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
It took months to untangle & identify a rake of underground services, laid over years, while the public service & telco companies themselves are not even aware of their exact location ... and then shift the entire lot across the street ...


That makes the Corpo look like even bigger gobshites considering a utility company needs a corpo licence to dig up a public stret/road. That is some statement Peter

Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
Harcourt Street never had a thriving passing trade; those businesses that suffered most will benefit most.


Harcourt has a great passing trade as the direct pedestrian and vehicular route from most of Dublin 6 and 14 to the central shopping district. Those very people that will use the LUAS travel this exact route anyway.

Your second assertion that traders will get a magic bonanza unfettered by substantial rent increases is uninformed. Why are office rents 35e per square metre in Blackrock and 20e less incentives in Tallaght? It's called the DART line factor. Any benifits will be fully taken by the freeholders and not the tenants who paid full market rent despite seriously diminished trading opportunities. Its a lose and equal situation at best

Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
Dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t.


The only dams in this case were the obstructions to customers and not the customary water. This LUAS fiasco is a damning indictment of Breanann and O'Rourke before him as well as the local rate collector the Carpo :mad:
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Postby notjim » Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:15 pm

do we really need to be discussing this, the property in harcourt street is now worth more so there are higher rents, the rent increase is proportionate to but not equal to the estimate extra retail income, that's how rent work. in this way, the luas has created value, it has given value to the property owners because there property is worth more, and it has increased the potential gross income of store owners, although their rents have increased. some types of retail suit a low rent environment; discount stores, bathroom shops, china storerooms, etc, people with businesses like this will sell there leases, for a profit, since the leases are now worth more, and move to a low rent area.

either way, its just luck, sometimes the breaks go your way, sometimes they don't. if we start compensating in situations like this, we're screwed, nothing will get build.

the luas took three years to build begining to end, tallaght will be much closer to town when it running, so will sandyford, it will be easier to get to smithfield. its done now, lets stop this giving out. let build another one to the airport connecting dcu and ballymun. you can't give out about the political delays to luas and at the same time repeat all the sorts of arguements that lead to those delays.
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Postby Peter Fitz » Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:00 am

the street is jammed with vehicular traffic, not pedestrian traffic, if it was such a pivotal pedestrian route it would be lined with retail outlets.

Yes the city council are to blame for allowing the services mess, so why slam those that are left with the job of sorting it out.

Working on Harcourt street in 50m sections would delay the project further.
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Postby PVC King » Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:39 am

Originally posted by notjim
do we really need to be discussing this, the property in harcourt street is now worth more so there are higher rents, the rent increase is proportionate to but not equal to the estimate extra retail income, that's how rent work. /B]


Depending on the type and location of the business there would be a little lift but hardly a proportionate lift.

Originally posted by notjim
[B]in this way, the luas has created value, it has given value to the property owners because there property is worth more, and it has increased the potential gross income of store owners, although their rents have increased. /B]


Don't confuse citywide benifits with specific locational benifits, it will do very little for most occupiers besides drive up rents.

Originally posted by notjim
[B] some types of retail suit a low rent environment; discount stores, bathroom shops, china storerooms, etc, people with businesses like this will sell there leases, for a profit, since the leases are now worth more, and move to a low rent area. /B]


You're not trying to suggest that tilestyle were going to open a new shoproom on Harcourt St in the absence of LUAS are you?

Originally posted by notjim
[B]either way, its just luck, sometimes the breaks go your way, sometimes they don't. if we start compensating in situations like this, we're screwed, nothing will get build. /B]


So we allow contractors to walk all over rate payers, it is not the government that should be compensating the victims it is the contractors. Who behaved terribly knowing that punters like you would sacrifice the rights of occupiers once the compo word was used.

Originally posted by notjim
[B]the luas took three years to build begining to end, tallaght will be much closer to town when it running, so will sandyford, it will be easier to get to smithfield. its done now, lets stop this giving out. /B]
LUAS still isn't finished and it started well before August 2001. Are you completely asleep or has the 800m euro passed you by? 800m should have delivered a lot more than 25kms of tramway. I would like to see an audit of the LUAS CPO's something tells me there may be a few skeletons somewhere.


[i] Originally posted by notjim
[B]let build another one to the airport connecting dcu and ballymun. you can't give out about the political delays to luas and at the same time repeat all the sorts of arguements that lead to those delays.
No lets get the RPA out of business and let Irish Rail do the job they have a bad record historically but have improved dramitically in recent years. In case you forgot Dublin flew 18m passengers last year and is growing by 1m+ per year hardly LUAS compatible. It needs real trains
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