request for clarification U2 tower

request for clarification U2 tower

Postby acito+partners » Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:04 pm

this is the text of a letter we have sent to
ddda, because we suspect that the winner's project don't respect the competition rules.




STUDIO ACITO AND PARTNERS – Matera – Italy


Dublin Docklands Development Authority



RE: Request for clarification regarding the Architectural Competition for a Landmark Tower/U2 studio


8 October, 2003


We are writing to request clarification regarding the information published on the official web site for the competition.

On the basis of the published designs, we wish to express our serious doubts that the winning project meets the obligatory specifications, set out in the invitation to submit proposals, regarding the maximum height of the building and the dimensions of the plan. According to our calculations, it is not possible for a single tower (maximum permitted height: 60m) to provide the specified number of square metres (min. 9,500m, max. 12,500) whilst maintaining the obligatory distances and standards.

We would also like to enquire as to whether our project has been included in the exhibition, and if this is not the case, the reason why it has been excluded.

In view of the spirit of professionalism with which we approached the competition and the energy we devoted to our submission, we feel entitled to a full and detailed explanation.

We look forward to your response.
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Postby what? » Tue Oct 14, 2003 2:49 pm

are you sure that buildings in the shape of a giant harp wern't against the rules??
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Postby acito+partners » Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:15 pm

Yes, we are sure!
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Postby bluefoam » Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:44 pm

Let us know what kind of response you get. It is unfortunate that entrants such as yourself feel that you need to take this kind of action.
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responses

Postby pepe » Tue Oct 14, 2003 6:42 pm

Acito.
I very much doubt that you will get any meaningful response from the DDDA

They have so much other shit flying around at the moment that they are scampering to keep up.

Sure the rules said 60m max height

there were lots of questions bout the floor areas and max height and ratios at teh start of the competition.

In the end if they had picked you as the winner, then got out the scale rule and said well actually this one looks like its 20mm above the 60m limit.

Pick another one instead

you would have the right to be pissed off.

as it is there are much larger questions.

But if you have agood lawyer maybe you can get them on this small technicality

but good on you for writing to them
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Postby trace » Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:06 am

Sorry for your trouble, guys, but it's really hard to feel sorry for sore losers. Don't be so literal - this was a concept competition - it's slapped all over the competition invitation and even the jury said they were picking a CONCEPT that could be developed. Judging from the exhibition that's on view in Dublin this week, the jury had their work cut out picking even 100 entries for exhibition. Most entries are woe-jess!

The list of who's in and not in the exhibition is posted on another thread on this site. If you've ever entered a competition before, you know damn well that indvidual explanations for why you didn't win are never provided to losers. Grow up. Get a life. I wouldn't have picked your hackneyed, harpy scheme either.

And pepe, my simian friend, the rules did NOT say max 60m height. The problem with young tyros is that they never read the brief properly.
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Postby what? » Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:31 am

yeah the quality of work in the exhibition was pityful. i went down there last sunday and didnt know whether to laugh or cry. either the judges were drunk or only children bothered to enter the competition.

im sorry i didnt make a stab at it myself now.
there were a maximum of 4 projects worthy of exhibiting in that gallery (a nice one from luxembourg). i felt embaressed for irish architecture when i noticed some forigners beside me (even though most of the entries weren't irish). im sure there are many projects in the gallery on archeire that are of a far higher standard than most of those exhibited.

some of the entries form england would fail in first year of college for being too pedestrian, america seems to be stuck in the 1980s and as for some of the italian ones, hasnt anyone told them postmodernism and neoclassicism have been sleeping with the fishes for decades now? both of a+d wjicarts entries made me want to spit (why were offices allowed to enter more than once?)

its either poor judging or poor quality of architecture. either way, poor show.

end of rant.
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Postby pepe » Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:18 am

are we not all simians? (genetically)

the problem with young "tyros" as you put it.
Is not that they dont read the brief.

Is that they read it and:

either feel that it is so banally restrictive in both its functional and physical elements and the presentation requirements that its not worth adhering to in anyway.

and thus are disqualified.

or that they dont really give a fuck but read it anyway.

but then maybe six months later could not quote the brief word for word

and are not referring to it in relation to their own work but to someone elses (acito or whichever "winner" they are reffering to)

i really dont think its a matter of anyone being a sore loser.

its a matter of wanting to know what the fuck happened in that lcked room.

and as what? said regarding the exhibition

sounds like they just sat around ate the free buffet then picked a hundred random entries

and this might well have been what happened.

sure we hope that there was some impassioned debate and infact there was (With regard to the disqualification) of the "original winner" but there has been no publsihed report or account of the proceedings

no one is willing to comment on it.

and as such

people who invested their time effort and money are liable to get pissed off with the ignorance or incompetence of the DDDA and therfore have the right to reply. Or at the very least instigate a discussion.

as for the use of obscure wordings "tyro" i have this to say to you.

when did you first hear this word?

did you look it up in your thesaurus.

and heres a couple for you that might enlighten you

ceaseless odium

bathetic black sheep
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Postby sw101 » Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:51 am

to acito and partners,

respectfully, i think your scheme was omitted from the exhibition because it was woefully inadequate in terms of exploration of the brief, and expression of a suitable and strong concept to develop the site.

Being candid for a moment, what the hell were you thinking? Only Peter Chomowicz managed to make more a messy building. At least some entries were honest about their intentions to ridicule this project (De Matos Storey Ryan)

Stop whinging
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Postby bluefoam » Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:07 pm

Originally posted by sw101
to acito and partners,

respectfully, i think your scheme was omitted from the exhibition because it was woefully inadequate in terms of exploration of the brief, and expression of a suitable and strong concept to develop the site.

Being candid for a moment, what the hell were you thinking? Only Peter Chomowicz managed to make more a messy building. At least some entries were honest about their intentions to ridicule this project (De Matos Storey Ryan)

Stop whinging


Originally posted by what?

are you sure that buildings in the shape of a giant harp wern't against the rules??



I don't think it is right to critisise people in such a way on these boards. That is not your role and it is easy to do while hiding behind a username. Your critisism is not even productive and is laced with contempt.
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Postby what? » Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:45 pm

youre damn right its laced with contempt,

and it does have a productive role; to crush any misconceptions that a tower built in the shape of a harp, to represent ireland, is anything more than a childish insult to both a developed and intelligent architecture, and the people of ireland.

im sorry for using acito+partners as an example as the building did have other merits (ie enviromental strategies), but people have to try harder than this childish literal, and to be subjective, downright ugly architecture.

if you visited the exhibition i think you will agree that the standard was pretty poor for an internationally significant competition.
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Postby cajual » Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:13 pm

my god...

most of the people on this message board are disgusted at the way this competition was run, dissgusted at the way the ddda refuse to cooperate, disgusted at the lack of some kind of inquiry, and disgusted at the image this debacle portrays of ireland to foreign architects.

then, a foreign architect who has entered the competition has the balls to write to the ddda and post his opposition here, and then lo and behold! all our pathetic little irish scavengers come out of the woodwork and launch into an attack on the quality of his design! it doesn't matter if you don't like it, what matters is that the decision-making process is transparent and open to the public in the form of the minutes of the jury meeting.

oh, and you're right, a harp doesn't represent ireland- it's much to modern and advanced.... i would suggest maybe a stone axe, or a plough...
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Postby bluefoam » Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:33 pm

Originally posted by cajual
my god...

most of the people on this message board are disgusted at the way this competition was run, dissgusted at the way the ddda refuse to cooperate, disgusted at the lack of some kind of inquiry, and disgusted at the image this debacle portrays of ireland to foreign architects.

then, a foreign architect who has entered the competition has the balls to write to the ddda and post his opposition here, and then lo and behold! all our pathetic little irish scavengers come out of the woodwork and launch into an attack on the quality of his design! it doesn't matter if you don't like it, what matters is that the decision-making process is transparent and open to the public in the form of the minutes of the jury meeting.


I concur.
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i concurr and double concurr with cajual and blue foam

Postby pepe » Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:51 pm

This is not the place to openly criticise peoples work
this is not about acito's design
or any of the other designs.

this is about the biggest fuck up of a competition (possibly in the whole history of architecture)

even the florentine organisers of the competition for the duomo had to be convinced that brunelleshi's dome would not collapse on their heads

and that doesnt even come close to the levels of ridiulousness surrounding this one.

This is what the DDDA sounds like to me

gehry who said gehry ....shut the fuckup
PWHC who said PWHC ....shut the fuckup
Brother in Law who said Brother in Law ....shut the fuckup
Original winner who said Original winner ....shut the fuckup
3W who said 3W ....shut the fuckup

acito were not asking you for comments on their design they were merely saying that as a practice in italy they are aware of the shitstorm and are asking for some answers

not to slur any irish members of theis forum.

but if you really had some balls the RAIA and the DDDA would have been shut down by now.

Or at least they would have both made statements and would be investigating the whole shebang.

as it is

you sit quietly until you feel strong enough to level anonymous criticism on someone who is not the problem but part of the solution.

if every competitor.

winner or commendation or otherwie were to threaten the DDDA with a lawsuit over their time invested and the EURO 100 entry fee.
If they all joined together then the DDDA would at least have to settle up or go into court and reveal all that was wrong with the competition.

as such

they sit back and laugh off individual pleas for information.

so its not just up to the irish guys.

but you are all better placed than a lot of people to help do something.

get onto the RAIA and demand an enquiry

but dont start slinging mud towards people who are just trying to get to the truth

otherwise you are worse than the ddda

and as far as criticism goes.

where are your wholefully significant designs?
how did you characterise the whole of intelligent irish culture?

a potato
a pint of guinness
a big U and big 2?

lets see

post it up
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Postby what? » Wed Oct 15, 2003 3:48 pm

This is not the place to openly criticise peoples work


this is a discussion forum on architecture where people express their opinions on matters relating to architecture.

as a member of this forum system i reserve the right to express my opinion on any matter, as long as it relates to architecture.

maybe acito+partners wernt asking for an opinion on their work, but i find it extremely difficult not to criticise work of this nature. how, in this day and age can someone justify a harp-shaped tower as a credible proposition for a landmark building in ireland. it is the most ridiculous, childish and culturally ignorant architectural concept i have come accross in a long time. its like some ironic joke put up by el architino.

as regards posting up my own work, i have explained before that this would result in losing my anonymity and freedom of opinion on this site, due to the small architectural community in dublin. if you are hinting that im just some half wit who likes to piss people off by thrashing their projects i can tell you that i hold a fist class honours degree in architecture and have had various successes in architectural competition. if you choose not to believe this it is of no consequence to me.

thats enough arrogance for now.
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Postby el architino » Wed Oct 15, 2003 4:20 pm

EL ARCHITINO does not make jokes and is never ironic, however if he respects anything it is arrogance.
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Postby GregF » Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:05 pm

Is that ''EL ARCHITINO'' ........the prodigiouspsychoprogeny of Salvador Dali's mentalitomortidolibido in unnatural florescent lighting!........... Begorrah!
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Postby el architino » Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:21 pm

perhaps, who wants to know?
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Postby GregF » Wed Oct 15, 2003 6:02 pm

El Diabolo
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Re: i concurr and double concurr with cajual and blue foam

Postby helloinsane » Wed Oct 15, 2003 6:03 pm

Originally posted by pepe
This is not the place to openly criticise peoples work


Yes, it is. Look up the word criticism.


but if you really had some balls the RAIA and the DDDA would have been shut down by now.

[snip]

get onto the RAIA and demand an enquiry


No idea who the RAIA are supposed to be, but the RIAI had nothing to do with the competition. No Thing. Nothing.


and as far as criticism goes.

where are your wholefully significant designs?
how did you characterise the whole of intelligent irish culture?


Wholefully ain't a word. The role of the critic is not to produce the work.

The comments on acito's entry may have been unsolicited, but such is the nature of public architectural discourse. Get over it.
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what?

Postby pepe » Wed Oct 15, 2003 6:06 pm

not specifically directed at you my honorable friend

infact your initial question about the harp was very funny

as was acitos response!

i however personally feel that a building with references to a celtic harp (guiness branded or otherwise) being much more relevant to the irish people than that of the twisty winner

a spinning top??????

does this have some incredible significance in the irish subconcious.

and even so, does the bulding remind you of a spinning top?

NOT I said the cat

not in anyway does it make me think of a spinning top until the architect says so.

spinning tops are about centrifugal or centipetal forces that create a stability through velocity

THAT IS NOT A SPINNING TOP
THAT IS POST RATIONALISATION
THAT IS BRAIN WANKINGG


what if craig henry had justified their proposal by saying that it came up while playing twister! or from eating one of those pink and yellow twister candies.
or from using the distort tools in photoshop on a picture of canary wharf tower?????

as with 3W proposal, what is the attributable significance of a concrete campanile???

sure acitos development of the project was a bit literal/formal in some senses. and a more poetic expression of what an architectural harp could be might have gotten them further???

but to be honest.

none of these proposals acknowledge one very important part of the program.

That this building (which ever one they finally build (ifa any) will be known as the U2 Tower.

Certainly there are questions of whether people would want to rent an apartment in a branded tower. but some of the most significant and specific requirements in the brief were regarding the recording studios and roof top access/facilities for the band.

So in that respect i think all those mentioned above missed the point/a point of the "Landmark" status of the building.

Abbey road is a mecca for beatles fans, as will the original u2 studios be (whatver happens to them)

but this tower will become the new place to pilgramage for U2 fans (a chance to get a glimpse of the band) at the top of the tower.

There was one project which althugh copying anish kappoors marsyrys accmomplished this in some way with a big "ear horn" structure going through the whole building and linking the studios to the ground floor.

Or maybe even el architinos project whch houses the band in a pit/cage for people to look down upon.


as for other specific requirements and back to the fire stair issue.

"i see seven towers, and i only see one way out"

dont know which song this is but its by U2

maybe this is some form of nostradmic prediction?

anyway

more thughts to come.

but i do not wish to surpress your opinions.

mrely poiting out that negtive criticism at this stage does not really benefit anyone, unless it makes them relook at the project and think about what it could of been.

,maybe they are happy with teh formal qualities of the harp.

maybe they think nothing could be added to or taken away without compromising the project.

in which case acito need to start again from first principles and look at a real celtic harp

or maybe a spinning top!

but this forum should be a place for positive criticism

not dumping on people

congratulations on your first class degree

and your successes in architectural competitions.

personally i feel the latter is more important than the former

education being notoriously incestuous

and whilst you may have worked very hard, there are many talented people ou there who do not have a first clss (or even any) degree

tadao ando
FLW

etc
etc

i respect your anonymity

but please email me (through the forum) with some images and explanations of your work! (Prize winning or otherswise)

i would be intersted to se them

ok

got to go for dinner

catch you later
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Postby trace » Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:09 pm

Post your own entry, pepe! What have you got to hide?
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Postby sw101 » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:51 pm

I stand by my earlier comments.

If acito and partners weren't open to criticism they shouldn't enter competitions.

If they aren’t willing to hear peoples opinions on their work they shouldn't post images and conceptual writings about such work on public access forums.

If they are not willing to take comments from an irish architecture student made as honestly as possible, then they shouldn’t highlight their plight with regards a competition they chose voluntarily to enter, for an irish site.

bluefoam,
respectfully, please dont try to inform me as to my role on this firm. If i was a year or two younger i'd tell you to fugg off grandad. I was being quite reserved in my comments about this scheme. I chose not to give my opinions about the letter in question, because i dont think they would be productive in any way. I've been involved in competitions in the past and i appreciate their concerns as to the proper running of such a competition, but dont think they have the right to complain because of the reasons I’ve already outlined

on the issue of contempt, please reserve your judgment on my language and phrasing. It is productive to give forth an honest opinion on these forums. telling people to shut up, watch their mouths, mind what they say, and stop being critical is frankly stupid and merely ruins what could otherwise be free flowing debate. I've often questioned the points of garethace and asked him to aim for brevity, only because of the difficulty in reading his long posts and garnering information from them in the time it takes my boss to get back from a coffee. I’ve always been open to ideas and suggestions outside my frame of reference, in the hope of widening that frame.

I have no wish to enter a tit for tat debate on the rights and wrongs of posting on these forums. But given that its name is archiseek, and it is a forum on all things architecture, I’d like you to explain how your unending wranglings on the issue of legality, justice, politics, institutional policy, and competition procedure, are more valid than my open critique of a conceptual scheme.

And finally, I personally don’t wish to invite a critique of my work, for the same reasons as what?. I value this facility to discuss and debate my interests, and value my anonymity from those who I choose not to identify myself to. It is, in my opinion, petty and futile to suggest that criticism, constructive or otherwise, is not welcome from those who won’t open their own portfolio.
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Postby GregF » Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:45 am

Any one remember too that that reknowned and revered darling of Modern Irish Architecture Michael Scott once exhibited a building at an EXPO which looked like the shape of a shamrock when viewed from above.
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Postby what? » Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:36 am

i remember the expo building which was hailed as quite a masterpiece in fledgling irish modernism. it was a shamrock in plan which held relevance (altough i still think tacky) when seen from the detached realm of aeroplanes approching the fair in newyork, if i remember correctly (air travel being relatively new and a symbol of the modern world back then). however, it appeared as a reasonably restrained moderist building when experienced on the ground in reality. had the building had a shamrock shaped section or elevation i dont think anyone would have lavished it with such praise.

as for the spinning top issue, i think the twisting of this tower as a contrived and cheap trick. this formal manipulation is just a simplistic way of making the tower recognisable and serves no other purpose than being different (and infinitely harder to construct with no added merit)

i just think that irish society has reached a level of culture which has gone past the need for in your face obviousness. we have and still do, produce some of the greatest poet writers artists and musicians in the world from a ridiculously small population. yet we still get portrayed as guiness drinking farmers with potatoes growing out of our ears who wouldnt know what a subtlety was if it knocked us off our bar stool. we dont need blatent symbolism anymore, people are more sophisticated now. you wouldnt propose a new tower in paris in the shape of a baugette, that would be an insult to the culture and people of the city. have a bit of respect for the people of dublin.
anyway in the global society we live in today defucnt symbols and icons of countries have little or no relevance other than nostalgia.
we need to find some real relevance and identity, we need to progress not go back to the famine.

by the way, despite what tadao ando might want you to belive in his quest for an enigmatic aura, he did study architecture. in between boxing for a living!

too much ranting for this time of the morning
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